You know what really grinds my gears?

[mewbreon]

Do you believe every superstition about black guys


Because I believe that Pokemon players are supposed to be different than others. Don't get me wrong, Pokemon players are niceer, kinder, than most gamers.

i cant BELIEVE that you included these two phrases in the same response.
you are unbelievable amphy.
indeed the least amount of SOTG than almost anyone on the gym.

every single time that you get into a "heated argument" you end up saying some inappropriate put down, racists remark, (dont even get me STARTED on when you made the charlie sheen comment here http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1999891), etc.

if cutting a deck in a strange manner makes you angry... get over it.
if you think its disrespectful of someone to take precautionary methods to prevent cheating, then you are playing the wrong type of game. some people cheat. i have WATCHED my OPs "sneak a peek" at their cards while shuffling many times.
maybe it was just impulse, maybe it was cheating. regardless of WHAT it was. i cut the deck in a "strange" way to prevent that player from having knowledge of what he/she is drawing

this is a competitive game with high prizes.
so relax.

oh, and stop making racists/inappropriate remarks. for gods sake, this is a kid's game. and many kids are on this forum... i've said this exact phrase to you twice within the past 2 weeks now....

 

[evil psyduck]

I cut my opponent's deck in like three section.

Technically that is a shuffle and not a cut. If you did that then your opponent would be allowed a final cut. A cut is just two sections.

 

[amphy#1]

i cant BELIEVE that you included these two phrases in the same response.
you are unbelievable amphy.
indeed the least amount of SOTG than almost anyone on the gym.

every single time that you get into a "heated argument" you end up saying some inappropriate put down, racists remark, (dont even get me STARTED on when you made the charlie sheen comment here http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1999891), etc.

if cutting a deck in a strange manner makes you angry... get over it.
if you think its disrespectful of someone to take precautionary methods to prevent cheating, then you are playing the wrong type of game. some people cheat. i have WATCHED my OPs "sneak a peek" at their cards while shuffling many times.
maybe it was just impulse, maybe it was cheating. regardless of WHAT it was. i cut the deck in a "strange" way to prevent that player from having knowledge of what he/she is drawing

this is a competitive game with high prizes.
so relax.

oh, and stop making racists/inappropriate remarks. for gods sake, this is a kid's game. and many kids are on this forum... i've said this exact phrase to you twice within the past 2 weeks now....

Are you kidding Me? The only reason I included that statement about black guys was for a reference. It had nothing to do with being racist, or inappropriate. Come on, I'm trying to be civil here and you're throwing things way out of context. Also, I can't believe you're bringing another argument into MY THREAD and accusing me of not upholding the SOTG, when I've made legitimate statements that prove my discussions are valid and truthful. You sir are not upholding the SOTG. Especially, since you're coming on here and trying to start a flame war. I WILL NOT TOLERATE THAT CRAP IN MY THREAD!! Pick another thread to fight me in. This one is off limits.

Yes. Sometimes it is disrespectful when players shuffle/cut your deck like that. I know some people cheat. Does that give you the right to give every one the 3rd degree? For the players that I know personally that are nice, like to have fun, and respectful, I don't have to worry about cutting/shuffling their deck to prevent cheating. The game goes better when you're not worried about that too. The cut/shuffle is going to be random anyway you slice it. It's just those rare few occasions that someone would come along, and stack/cheat. Which makes you paranoid, and is the reason you cut/shuffle a certain way.

Pokemon being a game of high prizes? :lol: That's the funniest thing I've herd all day. It's not that serious. We're not playing for large amounts of money, or computers, or game systems, or cool looking mats, or high tech phones. Were competing for points to go to the Worlds. Yeah, it's exciting and fun, but I don't see the reason to cheat in this game, and I don't see a reason for anyone to be paranoid, and shuffle/cut to prevent that cheating either. Cheating does happen though, so I guess you can be a little paranoid. That doesn't mean you do everyone the same way OK.

 

[jjkkl]

Why aren't you complaining about something more important? Like why haven't they released a playable Aggron yet?

METAL DINOSAUR SAMURAI FTW

 

[Naki Feralkin]

If I feel as though my opponent could potentially benefit off of their own shuffle, think they could be stacking, etc, I will be shuffling your deck, no matter what you say about it. I'm sorry, I'm not going to just let you sit there and stack your deck and smile happily while you win. I will cut/shuffle however I want if I feel as though my opponent will benefit from it otherwise. This is why cutting like that and shuffling is allowed, to limit people from stacking.

I don't understand why this is an issue. There is nothing in the rule book about how you're supposed to cut other than that you cannot cut a specific amount of cards.

 

[losjackal]

Actually, the Tournament Rules are pretty specific about how to cut:

After the shuffle, the deck must be offered to the player’s opponent to be cut once. Cutting the deck consists of creating two separate stacks of cards by removing a portion of the top of the deck, and then placing it under the remaining portion. Players should take care to not reveal any of their opponent’s cards while cutting. Cutting into more than two stacks is considered a shuffle.

Instead of cutting, the opponent may choose to shuffle the deck. This shuffle should be brief, and when it concludes, the deck’s owner is allowed to cut the deck once as described above. Players should take care when shuffling an opponent’s deck, as the cards in that deck are not the shuffling player’s property. At this point, the deck should be sufficiently randomized to both players’ satisfaction.

For the sake of discussion, I don't see rules about the cut needing to be random. However, the beginning of this Section (20. "Shuffling") does say:

Each player’s deck is expected to be fully randomized at the start of each game...

So with the premise that player 1 is shuffling randomly, and then player 2 cuts a precise number of cards (1 or 7 for example), the deck is still randomized. That's my interpretation anyway, if a Judge wants to be more strict for whatever reason then of course I'd comply because...

Players engaging in questionable shuffling methods may be subject to the Unsporting Conduct section of the Penalty Guidelines. Players are strongly encouraged to shuffle their opponent’s deck at Premier Events.

So besides said penalty, note that the Rules encourages shuffling the opponent's deck at Premier Events, and then they get a single cut before play commences.

For in-game cuts, I recommend people vary what they do:

1. Cut in the middle
2. Cut deep
3. Cut shallow
4. Don't cut at all

If your cuts are unpredictable, your opponent can't stack the deck.

 

[ShuckleLVX]

You know what really grinds my gears?

Klinklang.

 

[amphy#1]

Actually, the Tournament Rules are pretty specific about how to cut:



For the sake of discussion, I don't see rules about the cut needing to be random. However, the beginning of this Section (20. "Shuffling") does say:



So with the premise that player 1 is shuffling randomly, and then player 2 cuts a precise number of cards (1 or 7 for example), the deck is still randomized. That's my interpretation anyway, if a Judge wants to be more strict for whatever reason then of course I'd comply because...



So besides said penalty, note that the Rules encourages shuffling the opponent's deck at Premier Events, and then they get a single cut before play commences.

For in-game cuts, I recommend people vary what they do:

1. Cut in the middle
2. Cut deep
3. Cut shallow
4. Don't cut at all

If your cuts are unpredictable, your opponent can't stack the deck.

Good info. I have no problem with my opponent shuffling my deck. I even do it to them. They can cut it then if they want.

 

[Mazu]

I think I missed the point here. You get upset when people make specific cuts to your deck?

I think you could have structured your post better. It gets really confusing when points get taken up and dropped and then taken up again. If I did not know better I would say you resent people cutting your deck at all.

 

[amphy#1]

I think I missed the point here. You get upset when people make specific cuts to your deck?

I think you could have structured your post better. It gets really confusing when points get taken up and dropped and then taken up again. If I did not know better I would say you resent people cutting your deck at all.

Well, yes. When they do crazy stuff that they're not supposed to do like take the top card off, or the top 7, or pile shuffle, or some other crazy stuff. Normal cutting and shuffling is fine though.

Yeah, you're right, I could have done it better. When I post stuff, I post the way that I talk in real life. I'm not fake in any way. I tried to make it as detailed as possible, and I didn't want to come off sounding like a troll for once. I usually come up with cool titles and themes for my decks and articles to help pull people in to read the content.

That's another reason I wanted to start this discussion. Even If I didn't say what I wanted to say the right way, I knew someone would comment, and say it better than I can, and clear up the confusion. Now with the info, we can discuss this properly. Some of you might not think I'm smart, since I come off sounding the way that I do. But there is a method to my madness. :smile:

 

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

you know what grinds my gears?
Klinklang
and people making silly threads about cutting a deck, there's no reason not to and why not do that, if it helps you win against that ONE person that stacks their deck then it was worth it.

 

[z-man]

How do we know if someone is a cheater or not? If we already found out, you shouldn't be playing them in a tournament. Shuffling everyone's deck is just a good habit whether or not they are perfectly honest. C4's post was perfectly justified. YOUR POSTS are very off. You seem to find problems in a normal action that nearly everyone does habitually. The only reason a cut would be wrong is if it stops the flow of the game, or de-randomizes the deck. You don't seem to be talking about that, so any form of cuts or shuffling is fine. Cutting/shuffling doesn't help you win... it helps you not lose. If someone is stacking, you want to ensure that their deck is still random, so you cut/shuffle their deck. An effective stacker will not give you any reason to think they are stacking. They may seem honest, but they are actually not. You cannot judge. Cutting someone's deck does not increase your probability of winning (as the opponent's deck should be random). It does, however, decrease your chance of being cheated. For that reason, I encourage everyone to make a habit of cutting/shuffling the opponent's deck. When you play for high stakes, some people may be tempted to cheat. Preventing cheating in a very non-confrontational way is perfect. That is essencially what cutting is.

 

[AyameHikaru]

Here are my points:
1. Shuffling and cutting is fine
2. single and numbered cuts aren't fine
3. pile shuffling, and crazy off the wall cuts aren't fine
4. Having fun with your friends and cutting their deck is fine
5. figuring out someones a stacker/cheater, and shuffling their deck to make it fair, is fine
6. shuffling everyone's deck like their a stacker/cheater (even people you know personally), is not fine
7. a judge cutting/shuffling the deck is fine.
8. You cutting/shuffling a deck out of superstition of losing is not fine in my book.

1. Agreed.

2. The rules say otherwise. They say 'a portion' of the deck should be removed from the deck top and put on bottom. 1 card is a portion. 59 cards are a portion. It doesn't say 'a portion somewhere between 2 and 58 cards but not including the numbers 7 and 13'.

3. Pile shuffling is a great way to make sure your cards aren't sticking together, creating clumps. They're also a great way to make sure you didn't mix up your BTS with your last opponent, since you'll be able to tell if you've got an uneven amount of cards. As long as it's done in a reasonable amount of time, there's nothing wrong with pile shuffling, and it's actually a really good thing to do. Not sure what you mean by 'crazy off the wall cuts', but I'm pretty sure my #2 covers it.

4. Absolutely have fun.

5. A lot of times, by the time you 'figure out' someone's a cheater, they've squished you. There's basically no way you're going to be able to RELIABLY sniff out cheaters and cut/shuffle only their decks. Treat every opponent the same, cut all the time. Someone acts shifty (Shiftry?) sure you can/should shuffle their deck. But honestly, don't think you'll be able to tell a cheater before they've already cheated enough to win Even then, it's questionable. We've all hit on the hax of the game at some point. Amazing hands happen to everyone. They ALWAYS happen to cheaters. If you only play once, how do you tell the difference?

6. Why not? Equality for all. Really, I covered this in #5, but to reiterate, you don't know who is a cheater. Even a friend might give in to temptation and stack, especially if they happen to see an opportunity and they want to win. Shuffling decks is a good equalizer. Plus, it keeps whoever you're playing on their toes. I can't count the number of times I've shuffled someone's deck and they respond "Can you do that???" It's good for everyone to know their options.

7. Absolutely. But should they have to? Judges can be busy people. This is particularly true at BRs, where often there's only one judge over all the divisions. Calling a judge over to shuffle a deck you could just as well have shuffled yourself isn't necessarily a good use of resources. I'm sure most judges would be more than happy to shuffle a deck, but most would prefer it to be a Junior who is having trouble versus a Master with a superstition.

8. There is no 'superstition of losing'. Losing is an option every game. It happens. Losing in an honest game, even if it's a donk, is better than losing a dishonest game to a cheater. Especially true if you could have prevented it yourself just by shuffling or cutting. It's not superstitious to think you might lose, and it's not superstitious to try to keep the game honest.

TL;DR: Shuffle, cut, try to keep things light. It's not really a part of the game you're supposed to dwell on.

 

[amphy#1]

How do we know if someone is a cheater or not? If we already found out, you shouldn't be playing them in a tournament. Shuffling everyone's deck is just a good habit whether or not they are perfectly honest. C4's post was perfectly justified. YOUR POSTS are very off. You seem to find problems in a normal action that nearly everyone does habitually. The only reason a cut would be wrong is if it stops the flow of the game, or de-randomizes the deck. You don't seem to be talking about that, so any form of cuts or shuffling is fine. Cutting/shuffling doesn't help you win... it helps you not lose. If someone is stacking, you want to ensure that their deck is still random, so you cut/shuffle their deck. An effective stacker will not give you any reason to think they are stacking. They may seem honest, but they are actually not. You cannot judge. Cutting someone's deck does not increase your probability of winning (as the opponent's deck should be random). It does, however, decrease your chance of being cheated. For that reason, I encourage everyone to make a habit of cutting/shuffling the opponent's deck. When you play for high stakes, some people may be tempted to cheat. Preventing cheating in a very non-confrontational way is perfect. That is essencially what cutting is.

Ok then, what's normal about someone doing a single cut, or numbered cut, or pile shuffle, or crazy off the wall cut. What? I don't have a right to feel now? When I sit down to play, I want to feel confident, and have a good time enjoying the game that I love. When someone cuts/shuffles my deck in a crazy way that isn't fair (you know what I'm talking about), It takes the fun and some of that confidence away. Is it wrong that I don't want any tension, or stress during my game? Most of the time you can't even tell who won, or who lost in my games, because both of us come away feeling good that we've played a good game. I do agree that that's what shuffling is somewhat, I just have slightly different views, that's all.

---------- Post added 05/26/2011 at 08:00 PM ----------

1. Agreed.

2. The rules say otherwise. They say 'a portion' of the deck should be removed from the deck top and put on bottom. 1 card is a portion. 59 cards are a portion. It doesn't say 'a portion somewhere between 2 and 58 cards but not including the numbers 7 and 13'.

3. Pile shuffling is a great way to make sure your cards aren't sticking together, creating clumps. They're also a great way to make sure you didn't mix up your BTS with your last opponent, since you'll be able to tell if you've got an uneven amount of cards. As long as it's done in a reasonable amount of time, there's nothing wrong with pile shuffling, and it's actually a really good thing to do. Not sure what you mean by 'crazy off the wall cuts', but I'm pretty sure my #2 covers it.

4. Absolutely have fun.

5. A lot of times, by the time you 'figure out' someone's a cheater, they've squished you. There's basically no way you're going to be able to RELIABLY sniff out cheaters and cut/shuffle only their decks. Treat every opponent the same, cut all the time. Someone acts shifty (Shiftry?) sure you can/should shuffle their deck. But honestly, don't think you'll be able to tell a cheater before they've already cheated enough to win Even then, it's questionable. We've all hit on the hax of the game at some point. Amazing hands happen to everyone. They ALWAYS happen to cheaters. If you only play once, how do you tell the difference?

6. Why not? Equality for all. Really, I covered this in #5, but to reiterate, you don't know who is a cheater. Even a friend might give in to temptation and stack, especially if they happen to see an opportunity and they want to win. Shuffling decks is a good equalizer. Plus, it keeps whoever you're playing on their toes. I can't count the number of times I've shuffled someone's deck and they respond "Can you do that???" It's good for everyone to know their options.

7. Absolutely. But should they have to? Judges can be busy people. This is particularly true at BRs, where often there's only one judge over all the divisions. Calling a judge over to shuffle a deck you could just as well have shuffled yourself isn't necessarily a good use of resources. I'm sure most judges would be more than happy to shuffle a deck, but most would prefer it to be a Junior who is having trouble versus a Master with a superstition.

8. There is no 'superstition of losing'. Losing is an option every game. It happens. Losing in an honest game, even if it's a donk, is better than losing a dishonest game to a cheater. Especially true if you could have prevented it yourself just by shuffling or cutting. It's not superstitious to think you might lose, and it's not superstitious to try to keep the game honest.

TL;DR: Shuffle, cut, try to keep things light. It's not really a part of the game you're supposed to dwell on.

What I meant to say in #3 was it's not ok for your opponent to pile shuffle your deck. that's what I meant.

 

[z-man]

Ok then, what's normal about someone doing a single cut, or numbered cut, or pile shuffle, or crazy off the wall cut. What? I don't have a right to feel now? When I sit down to play, I want to feel confident, and have a good time enjoying the game that I love. When someone cuts/shuffles my deck in a crazy way that isn't fair (you know what I'm talking about), It takes the fun and some of that confidence away. Is it wrong that I don't want any tension, or stress during my game? Most of the time you can't even tell who won, or who lost in my games, because both of us come away feeling good that we've played a good game. I do agree that that's what shuffling is somewhat, I just have slightly different views, that's all.

What are unfair cuts? I haven't seen such a thing. As long as they don't disrupt the flow of the game, they are all fair (as long as they ensure random orders). You have no right to control your opponent's actions. As long as what they do is according to the rules, they are perfectly justified in their actions. If cuts don't make you feel well, don't go to tournaments. Plain and simple If the cuts are illegal (reduce randomness or disrupt flow of the game), warn your opponent and then call judge if it continues.

 

[amphy#1]

What are unfair cuts? I haven't seen such a thing. As long as they don't disrupt the flow of the game, they are all fair (as long as they ensure random orders). You have no right to control your opponent's actions. As long as what they do is according to the rules, they are perfectly justified in their actions. If cuts don't make you feel well, don't go to tournaments. Plain and simple If the cuts are illegal (reduce randomness or disrupt flow of the game), warn your opponent and then call judge if it continues.

EXACTLY!!, you haven't seen anything. I have. I do call the judge if cuts/shuffling are illegal. Look, I'm not trying to control anything, I just want things to be fair and fun. Is that too much to ask? Like I said, I have no problem with normal random cuts, or shuffling, just like in my points. I go to tournaments to have fun, and I have fun competing, because I'm a competitive person. This is something some of you guys need to learn to do, and stop taking things so seriously. The moment, or second I feel I'm not having fun, and something is fishy,or I get stressed, something is really wrong with the game that I'm playing. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does, that stress lingers for a good bit. It might even carry over into the next match, which might end up messing up my chances to win that game to. Then it might become a chain reaction and ruin the whole day. Do you see where I'm getting at? Or, is this all meaningless to you?

 

[z-man]

This is very meaningless. You have not provided a specific example of what you oppose. You seem to imply that we are gaining an advantage by doing odd cuts. Unless they are untimely, or do not promote randomness, they are perfectly fair. Psychological gameplay is fully fair. Some players act in certain ways to "get into the heads" of opponents. If you are affected by this, I feel bad for you. The fault is only your own. The first rule of Game Theory is that people play to win. I have seen nothing against certain actions to make your opponent tilt (which seems to be what you do). If cutting your deck makes you tilt, remind me to cut your deck ;D. If I compete, I compete to win. Competition does not extend into the 2-5 tables. I secure all advantages I can get within the rules. If tilting my opponent is a possible advantage, I'll take it. I enjoy competition, and mental games are fully part of competition. I would argue that it is even an unwritten strategy in our game. To avoid this, just don't let things like this bother you. If you let it bother you, your opponent has won an aspect of the game.

My comment about not seeing such a thing is that you seem to imply that their are unfair, but legal cuts. I have never seen this before. I have clearly seen people shuffle/cut to stall for time or to stack decks, but never something unfair and yet legal. You have yet to cite any form of an "unfair cut/shuffle". Perhaps a youtube video on the topic would help. Your argument has become very confused. We are going in circles because you have not shown us what you actually mean, so we are forced to assume what you find to be "unfair".

Also, as I said before, as long as someone is within the rules (and SotG), they are playing fairly. Fun might not be promised (there are some people who I just don't like to play against), but tough luck I guess. Nothing you can do. Fun is highly subjective and cannot be monitered by anyone. I dislike playing against sabledonk or rogue decks (the games just aren't very good... from what I've found), but my lack of fun in those games does not suggest anything about my opponent or their actions. You seem to dislike people doing weird things... once again, though, if those people are within the rules, they are fully justified. You not having fun is not much of their concern.

 

[toxictaipan]

If there's anyone who feels like this and wants to help change the game for the better, feel free to post and comment on what you would like to see happen with this situation. If you feel like there isn't a problem, then you can voice your opinion as well. This isn't a troll. This is just me voicing my opinion about something I'm passionate about. If we work together, we can change the game for the betterment of all players.

The fact that you are offended by how your opponent cuts your deck is amazing, in my opinion. You're making way too big of a deal out of this and taking it way too personally. In fact, I personally recommend that you take a break from competitive game play for a short amount of time.

Here are my points:
1. Shuffling and cutting is fine. You're right.
2. single and numbered cuts aren't fine. Again, you're right. Those cuts are against the rules.
3. pile shuffling, and crazy off the wall cuts aren't fine. As long as it's done in a timely manner and doesn't affect the pace of the game/tournament, why not? Now, I'm not saying that all these actions can be done in a timely manner, but assuming that an action can resolve in enough time, what gives you the right to say something isn't acceptable just because you don't like it?
4. Having fun with your friends and cutting their deck is fine. Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Why would it not be fun? Also, just because you're friends doesn't mean you shouldn't cut. People take advantage of their friends all the time. It's not a pleasant thought, and, "Oh lol no wai mane, my friends aren't liek that. We're like best bros and such," but it happens, and you'd (general you) be pretty stupid to ignore the possibility.
5. figuring out someones a stacker/cheater, and shuffling their deck to make it fair, is fine. Reporting them to the Tournament Organizer/Head Judge is probably a better idea.
6. shuffling everyone's deck like their a stacker/cheater (even people you know personally), is not fine. I would assume that's why cuts even exist in the first place. 3 seconds of research tells me I'm not the only one who thinks so. That's what a cut is, bro, and this is where your main problem lies. A cut outright means, "I don't fully trust your shuffle, and I want the reassurance that you're not cheating." A lot of people might not look at it with that mentality, but that's the only reason for a cut in the first place. You can assume that everyone's out to get you and take precautionary measures against it, or you can let your guard down and run the risk of people taking advantage of you. When it comes to your opponent cutting your deck, that's your opponent's decision to make, and it's no reason to be offended.
7. a judge cutting/shuffling the deck is fine. Yeah.
8. You cutting/shuffling a deck out of superstition of loosing is not fine in my book. Highly debatable. It depends on what extent you're taking it to, really. Is your opponent purposely trying to ruin your hand with methodical, numbered cuts? Yeah, that's unacceptable. Does your opponent have a signature cut they invented and like to use? I don't see the problem here, as long as the cut follows any rules in place. Is it immoral to have a lucky charm of any other kind? Nahhh. So why not for cutting?

 

[Master Entei]

8. You cutting/shuffling a deck out of superstition of loosing is not fine in my book.

Thanks for the link toxictaipan! There's a point there which I'd like to quote:

Some players also consider the cut to be lucky.

"Out of superstition of losing" is pretty much the same as considering it to be lucky, right?
I always cut when my opponent draws more than one card, as in playing a Judge or PONT. Do I do it out of fear of stacking? No. I just do it because I feel like I should. Like if I don't do it, my opponent will draw a god hand. Superstition.
I see only three reasons for the cut to made: preventing cheating, out of courtesy (if you are given the deck to be cut, I'd say it's more polite to cut than not to), and the one above.
There's no rule for the cut to be made only when you suspect stacking, and there shouldn't be either. That would only lead to situations where the opponent would start getting angry at you because of you thinking they stack.

I agree with opponents shuffling for long amounts of time being annoying. Pile shuffling isn't in any way recommendable in the middle of a match. But for everything else, why not?

Oh, and there's a difference between one and two o's. Losing and loosing are two entirely different things. I'm from Finland, where we speak Finnish, and I know this. Please start using the right word in the right situation. Please.

 

[Happiny13]

Cutting and Shuffling isn't about not trusting your opponents. It's also a little about the risk of not cutting in case you were playing against a stacker. That's why you should always cut or shuffle imo. Also, it helps randomize your opponents deck a little more. If you feel they didn't shuffle enough, then fix the problem so they don't draw into machop-machoke-machamp-fighting-BTS everytime.