Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG
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Shino Bug Master
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I think that's a mark of the way cards are printed and released more than it is the biggest online Pokemon community spewing the same arguement during consecutive seasons. There have been some amazing changes to the game recently, where the big wigs have listened to thier players and improved the game for the better.
They also released Reshiram and Zekrom. They also released the new T1 rules. So the game has suffered as much as its benefitted.
I think the point that Jason was originally trying to make is that since players have gotten "better," we need a better way to ackowledge skill. I put the quotes around "better" because many players haven't actually gained in skill at all, they just have better resources (easier access to well-formed strategies and decks). Luck may feel like it's a stronger presence in the game because everyone's playing with decent deck lists. At a BR I went to this past Saturday I actually played against a genuine "Pokemom," meaning that her deck was not really that competitive and I had an easy time winning. That hasn't actually happened in... years. Truth is, even the pokeparents have good lists and know their way to victory. Beginners too can get in the game and have an amazingly consistent deck in no time.
All of that said, the concept of skill in a game that includes a huge luck factor can be a messy, messy thing. One person plays the Vileplume/Yanmega/Mew/Muk deck and has to play it flawlessly to get the same result that another player gets for T2'ing benched Pokemon with Catcher and Donphan all day long. Simple decks can be played for strategic, metagaming purposes. My brother once played a simple T2 Dark Slowking deck because everyone else was playing more complex decks that had psychic weakness. While his deck could've been played by even a bad player, it was the metagame choice that mattered overall. That too is a mark of high skill.
The last format encouraged only two things: speed and trainer-lock. Because of the way effective decks were structured, both of these things added a huge degree of variability in your typical game-to-game experience. I remember testing for Regionals at one point with the Luxchomp vs. Jumpluff matchup. My brother and I played 10 games in under 30 minutes because each game was over in less than 3 or so turns. This is not in any way indicative of skill. I can also point to how Gyarados had a hard time against Vilegar simply because of Spiritomb. That single start could mean that the Gyarados player would just say "pass" for the whole game. Or how about Gdos mirrors in which one player gets the Mesprit lock first?
Point is, the pool of cards available during the MD-on format encouraged speed (and then trainer-lock as a response to speed). With everyone having easy access to good deck lists, it created a climate in which donks and locks became the name of the game. Every game carried with it the threat of getting T1'd donked or locked, both of which stifled creativity and drove down that concept of skill.
Currently, there are decks that are more luck-dependent than others, but games aren't generally over in one turn (and yes, there are even decks that go for the donk as well). We have a lot of competing strategies in the game right now, from Donk/Speed decks (ZPST) to crazy rogues that actually work (Cawthon's Truth). We have trainer lock (Vileplume/Gothitelle), speed (Donphan/Yanmega/Cinccino), disruption (Weavile/Ambipom/Slowking), swarm (Cinccino/Yanmega), heavy hitters (Reshiram/Magnezone), spread (Kingdra/Yanmega), etc. And while you can come up with similar strategies from the previous format, all of those decks (Sabledonk, Sablelock, Vilegar) worked within the very narrow framework of pulling off the strategy turn 1. Vileplume can take many turns to get in play, with players making strategic maneuvers to get it on the field. Compare this with Spiritomb, which required the luck of having it in your opening hand. Or Ambipom/Weavile which requires a very particular manner of play to work with and against. Compare it to Sabledonk/lock, which again required that you pull off the strategy turn 1 or risk losing. Yanmega/Vileplume/Muk/Mew is so much harder to play than VileGar which needed a Spiritomb start and lucky coin flips.
I can go on and on, but I won't. Again, the previous format had a pool of cards that squashed skill by pushing all importance to the very first turn (and even in Sableye's case, turn 0). If you could get past all the variance that that format had going with it, you could actually have a good game every now and then. As for the format right now? It has a few problems with it too, but at the BR I played at this past Saturday, I had some of the best games I've had in 2 or 3 years.
KazamBolt
Active Member
so, you're basically saying:
Luxchomp was a winning deck merely 3 months ago (or so, back when Battle Roads Spring were). That's not that long of a time to wait.
Do I agree with your statement? No, not in any way. Do you mean to say that it took Ross Cawthon no skill at all to create one of the coolest rogue decks the game has ever seen, and to do well with it? Or that David Cohen won Worlds with a very different Magneboar list based on luck (which is funny because he did everything in his power to make his list as consistent as possible and eliminate the luck factor) alone?
We obviously have a new format. New formats can be stale because of the lacking amount of playable cards (think back to the DP days before Gardy/Gallade when Mario was winning...). Give it time. I highly doubt you've been playing long enough to be able to do a lot of comparing formats.
Swordfish1989
New Member
Honestly, for as long as the person going first has such a huge advantage, the potential to show skillful playing has declined immensely. My friends and I have practically quit since the rules changed/rotation happened because that new rule is such a downer. The person going first sets up first, evolves first, and attacks first. It reminds me of when I used to play Yugioh during ~2004-2005.. the winner is likely determined by a coin flip.
this is why twins is such a powerful play in many decks. of course, I too think the new first turn rules are just stupid, but you can design your deck to perform well in a losing position. I used to hate twins, but now recognize it as a great card for this reason. all we need is something like scramble energy and the game would be awesome. well, hydreigon and scramble would be pretty annoying of course. :/
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Otaku
Active Member
Oh please, not Scramble Energy. Unless it gets a nerfed effect like Rare Candy, I fear it is just too powerful a "comeback" card. Because it seems like new people (or people who haven't commented for a while) keep popping up in this thread, I'll restate this: two wrongs don't make a right. Okay, so sometimes two different cards can hold each other in check, but that usually forces players to run one, the other, or both. That isn't balance.
This article was about (and I know eriknance even just said this) the readily available amount of information creating faux-skilled players. The premise can sound a bit arrogant, but I actually do understand what he is saying.
The thing is the more rounds you play the more it exposes players who are relying on the luck inherent in the game (or someone else to do most of their deck building or using rote memorization to play through tight situations).
This article was about (and I know eriknance even just said this) the readily available amount of information creating faux-skilled players. The premise can sound a bit arrogant, but I actually do understand what he is saying.
The thing is the more rounds you play the more it exposes players who are relying on the luck inherent in the game (or someone else to do most of their deck building or using rote memorization to play through tight situations).
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
If they reprinted Scramble, Gengar/Lost World might just become as scary as it was hyped to be.
bullados
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I've always liked a 2-Rainbow Scramble type of energy. Exact same effect as Scramble, but 2 instead of 3. I hated both Scramble and Double Rainbow when they were in format (just like I hate DCE in this format). But a toned down version of both of those would be helpful.
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I think you're wayyyy overemphasising donks in the last format when in fact they were quite rare, especially due to the fact a lot of other decks ran cards like Spiritomb and Gastly. Obviously if a game ends in a donk it doesn't show skill, I agree, but that's the case for ANY deck, not just Luxchomp, and outside of getting a Turn 1 win, SP decks were far more skill-intensive and required a lot more thought than any other deck.
Obviously Pokemon is full of varience, I agree! But I could use your example and swap Luxchomp with Gyarados, or some other deck: "Well, some games you can start Tail Revenging for 90 turn 1 with a Mesprit chain and regardless of how many mistakes you make, you're still gonna win". That's Pokemon.
So basically, I agree there was a lot of varience and luck in last year's format, but that was deck-exclusive for the most part, and in games that were reasonably close, skill mattered a LOT if you were playing an SP deck. Do you agree?
^ No thats not pokemon, thats last season. Gyarados T1 90 with Mesprit was just as degenrated as sp, thats what I hated about the format, so many games decided on turn 1 because the other player couldnt veen do anything about it.
Mesprit / Uxie / Spray / Garchomp shouldve never existed
Mesprit / Uxie / Spray / Garchomp shouldve never existed
When i said "that's pokemon" last season was kind of what I meant. I was comparing Luxchomp to the rest of the decks in its format - yeah, each of its competing decks were all pretty degenerate too. But at least Luxchomp (and SP in general) took a lot of skill to play, regardless of all that luck and varience and general craziness.
I don't know, weaker Pokemon? Maybe, certainly getting rid of basics that can one shot just about everything would help (Zekrom/Reshiram take a max of 3 turns to OHKO most pokemon, even fewer turns with the right support).
I don't see anything inherently wrong with Plus Power but I absolutely, totally, completely agree about Catcher, somebody was asleep at the wheel when that card was approved for release.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with Collector either, Stantler lets you search for 2 basic for 1 energy. Eevees, among others, have always had a "Call for Family" like attack.
And the first turn rule isn't anything really different than what we had before except not having to wait until the second turn to use T/S/S but then we were evolving and using T/S/S simultaneously.
vaporeon
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^ Well, the problem with Plus Power is the card exist with things like Zekrom, Reshiram and Donphan Prime. It allows them to bring a lot of Pokemon into the OHKO range. It's not that Plus Power is broken, but nothing is safe when it's played. The change in text makes it better because of Junk Arm. It would be different if it took 2 or 3 Plus Powers to gain a KO. That on top of Catcher makes it a very powerful. The game is better off without Junk Arm as well.
As for Collector, the game has had cards like it before but not as powerful. Forcing people to use Call for Family for setup also takes a large amount of donks out of the game. Player can't start Yanma and collector for a Tyrogue and win the game. The rules during the ex series were pretty good and should not have been changed. Now, going second means you lose in most cases.
As for Collector, the game has had cards like it before but not as powerful. Forcing people to use Call for Family for setup also takes a large amount of donks out of the game. Player can't start Yanma and collector for a Tyrogue and win the game. The rules during the ex series were pretty good and should not have been changed. Now, going second means you lose in most cases.
If only we had a special word in place of "donk" that represented a situation under which a normal, "skillful" game could not occur; I'm going to go ahead and invent one and say "game killer"...
Last format was full of game killers: Garchomp C/DCE/Energy Gain, T1 Gyarados, Mesprit chains, Spiritomb, Power SPray, Judge + Initiative with a Sableye, Sableye, my gosh I could go on and on and on. Game killers extend past the first turn, but the effect is still the same -- one person is at such a disadvantage that there's just no hope for them. Most Pokemon TCG players know exactly how this feels ("Well I faced the mirror match and he got Gyarados setup T1 with Mesprits, so I lost," or "My Gyarados list plays a bunch of Trainers and he started with Spiritomb or Gastly everytime, so I lost").
With the current format, there are some game killers floating around such as Donphan/Yanmega/Catcher and ZPST (plus Tyrogue every now and then). But outside of that, there are a multitude of decks that aren't exploding into crazy amounts of damage or disruption on the first or second turn. Tyram, Vileplume variants, Cawthon's Truth, Magneboar, Gothiclus... these are all decks that require setup time.
With the last format, every single deck had game killers built directly into the decklist. Vilegar had Spiritomb (or the odd T1 Gengar OHKO on an Unown Q or something) and Gengar's stupid Power, Luxchomp had multiple ways to land a OHKO on a Basic or Power Spray everything good away, Sablelock/donk had tricky disruptive combos (or T1 OHKO w/Sableye), Regigigas and Palkia lock had Mesprit chains. Even Steelix had Chansey's Pulled Punch attack with PlusPowers (and yes, I remember getting 2 donks on people during CC's because of that).
On the subject of Luxchomp, there was definitely a noticable amound of skill required to play the deck well at times. I couldn't be the runner up at Nationals in 2010 without saying that. However, it too had game killers present in its strategy. Get a couple of Power Spray in your hand early game and you could kill the setup power of almost every deck in the format, reducing your opponent to a single utterance: "PASS." Other games were much more challenging. I personally felt the mirror offered a lot in terms of skill if you could get past those donks and game killer situations. Even still, I faced many opponents who landed a T1 KO on something only for me to come back slowly and skillfully to a winning position. That is skill, I won't deny it at all. But a good Luxchomp player could easily go through an entire tournament and have that happen only once or twice. I know because it happened to me (Regionals last year had me donking twice, getting donked twice, and having 2 good games and one where I easily won). I also know because that's how these decks were designed -- everything had to take that game killer potential to the maximum.
So did Luxchomp take skill? At times, yes. But it too was another deck that suffered from the "game killer syndrome," having cards and combos in it that put opponents in an unrecoverable position at times. When all the decks were like this, variance went sky-high. That's not to say that players who won tournaments weren't good players, but it is to say that things such as matchups, first turns, and starters mattered more and more and more.
Ness
Member
I thought Scramble Energy was too powerful. To be honest, I don't like any card that rewards a player for having more prize cards left than his opponent. The weakest ones (such as Rocket's Admin./N) I can tolerate, but cards like Twins & Scramble Energy create a lot of stupid stalemates. Most players will disagree with me because they aren't good enough to recognize these stalemates and simply always take a prize card when the opportunity presents itself. However, pair two top level players and the fear of Twins can actually create either some boring stalemate-like situations... I suppose these situations might actually just be so intricate they really do add skill to the game, but I also just am annoyed at the concept of punishing a player for taking a lead in a game.
Again, just like last format, we're 1-2 cards (really only one, tbh) away from a great format. Remove some part of the Pachirisu/Shaymin/Zekrom combo and you have a great format. (The others I think the game would be better off without are Tyrogue and PlusPower.) My personal opinion would be to remove Pachirisu. Last format the solution would have been to remove Uxie. Of course, I'm just speaking hypothetically, I don't think we should waste time trying to ban Pachirisu because it's never going to happen. But geez, I don't get it - why do they keep printing cards to Turn 1 people? What doesn't Japan get? No one thinks losing on Turn 1 is cool or fun!
Envoyofduels
New Member
Yeah, that is the mind set. The problem is that we have cards from different blocks that "work" together sure, but are not suppose to "work" together if you know what I meant. Yes this is a problematic format right now, but once HGSS is rotated alot and I do mean ALOT of our problem cards will be rotated. Give it a year(hopefully). I do not know what they have planed for future sets, but I see where they are going. Hopefully.
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