Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG

[chrataxe]

Problems? Stopping scooping. If a ZPTS player is facing The Truth, they're probably going to scoop until they have a donk situation. There are a couple of ways to discourage this. First you can tell players that they no longer may scoop games but if they scoop they are forfeiting the match. Second you could make it so that each time a player scoops a match the opponent is credited with an extra prize. Third, you could require a player to take more than 50% of his or her prizes before scooping.

Any thoughts? Is this just too crazy to work?

Um, if the donk deck player scoops, doesn't that count as a loss? So, lets say they scoop 3 times and finally hit the donk on the 4th game, they are still down 3-1, right?

I think this idea is actually really good. It's already a 30 minute round anyway, why not play it out? Keep the rule about needing to take more than 3 prizes and maybe add a clause that says something along the lines of "if you are down by 2 games and time is called, the match is over" thus cutting down on unneeded +3 games.

 

[Ring-of-Magma]

Um, if the donk deck player scoops, doesn't that count as a loss? So, lets say they scoop 3 times and finally hit the donk on the 4th game, they are still down 3-1, right?

I think this idea is actually really good. It's already a 30 minute round anyway, why not play it out? Keep the rule about needing to take more than 3 prizes and maybe add a clause that says something along the lines of "if you are down by 2 games and time is called, the match is over" thus cutting down on unneeded +3 games.

I think espeon means in best 2 out of 3 games, where if the ZPS player scoops 1 game, he automatically forfeits the whole match.

 

[Ness]

I actually like Vaporeon's idea, too, but as I wrote in my Original Post, there's no point in discussing things like this. I highly doubt Japan is ever going to change the rule of all your Pokémon getting knocked out ending the game. After all, the card game is designed to resemble the video game.

 

[vaporeon]

I actually like Vaporeon's idea, too, but as I wrote in my Original Post, there's no point in discussing things like this. I highly doubt Japan is ever going to change the rule of all your Pokémon getting knocked out ending the game. After all, the card game is designed to resemble the video game.

This is true but you cant snipe a pokemon in its pokeball for damage. There needs to be a line between the video game and card game.

 

[Otaku]

Additionally, how does deck translate to the video games? Is it the wild? _______'s PC? You wouldn't think it was your Poke Balls... except the Bench is the Bench. With what little we have for reference the Bench is indeed like a Bench for a sport, where your Pokemon are sitting waiting to do their thing, and can sometimes attack.

Though Ness' ultimate point is most definitely valid, since it would be a significant rules change to the core game (like many good ideas) and while those are actually kind of common in the history of Pokemon, we don't control them. The thing is, I think the main point of the thread is pretty played out, since the only comments pertaining to it are people discussing that the thread is getting off topic. XD

 

[autoaim]

Love your YouTube channel.

Two things: why was the first turn rule changed to begin with? I think the finding out the rationale behind it (i don't know why personally, I just know that it was changed to allowing Trainers/Supporters to be played on the first turn) might shed some light as to what the powers that be were thinking in making the change.

I don't know how you can "level" the start of the game, somebody has to go first, it is a turn based game after all. Even if you bar both players from using T/S their first turn, the third turn would be the "first turn" anyway. The rule before was no T/S could be played the first turn. That seemed ok, but so does using T/S the first turn for either player as well.

Part of the skill is turning a first turn "advantage" (if there is one) to your advantage. I think good players do that all the time.

The second point I have is the time limit. I know it seems counter intuitive, but there should be a time limit as well as sudden death. All sports (with the exception of golf and tennis, I think) are played against the clock, whoever scores the most points within the time period is the winner. That works.

For us, best 2 out of 3 within an hour. At the end of time, sudden death kicks in. But the real change should be continuing where the game was at the end of official time instead of starting over. That's the part of the rules that doesn't make any sense to me. Why start over?

In no other sport do they erase what has happened before just because time ran out, it's sudden death. If Lebron James fouled out of the game in regulation, he doesn't get a "do-over" just because it's OT. He fouled out, the game picks up where it left off. The score isn't reset to zero, they keep playing from where they left off. It's the same for football, hockey, baseball, soccer, etc.

For us, "Time ran out. You have five minutes (or whatever) to get more prize cards than your opponent. At the end of the (whatever) time. Whoever has the most prize cards is the winner." End of story. That way it doesn't drag on forever but still gives players time to "work their magic" and come out with the win. Teams have completely turned it around in OT to win games, series and championships. Pokemon deserves no less.

Good players will always find a way to win or try their hardest.

you cant compare pokemon to sports. it just doesnt work.

 

[Ness]

2 hours for Best of 5 still puts us just on the short side of time, but I don't think you could ask for more time. 135 (or 150) minutes might be better than 120, but in terms of practicality it starts to push the schedule too long. Personally, I think a 120 min Best 3/5 is probably better than a 75m 2/3, definitely better than a 60m 2/3, but I'm not sure it's better than a 90m 2/3. Reason being, a 90m 2/3 almost surely gives you three good games. However, with a 120 minute Best 3/5, our ultimate goal may fail, with two players tied @ 2-2 when time expires, and a lame Sudden Death Game 5 ending. Granted, this only occurs when the series goes to 5 games, but if you can't accommodate the maximum number of games, why even make the series Best of 5?

Let's assume we're never getting over 120 minutes. Rank these:
1) 120m 3/5
2) 90m 2/3
3) 75m 2/3
4) 60m 2/3

For me, that's my preferred order for Top Cut at a Nationals/Worlds event. I think 120m 3/5 is best because you're more likely to have one game end immediately (a quick donk or a quick concede) when playing 5 games, which should save time. What about everyone else?

 

[HornetsBasketballFan]

The only problem I'd really have with best 3/5 is what if every game you match you play goes to all 5 games. With event just a top32 cut, that's 25 games assuimng you make it all the way to top2. That'd get really tiring on a mental state. And every high stress levels. While I do agree with a time increase on the top cut matches, I think that making it best of 5 would be a bit much. Just my 2 cents.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

Additionally, how does deck translate to the video games? Is it the wild? _______'s PC? You wouldn't think it was your Poke Balls... except the Bench is the Bench. With what little we have for reference the Bench is indeed like a Bench for a sport, where your Pokemon are sitting waiting to do their thing, and can sometimes attack.

The problem is that the TCG does not translate to the video game. Pokemon are already evolved to whatever stage they need to be when combat has been entered, and need no additional preparation to fight (Energy).

 

[Ness]

The only problem I'd really have with best 3/5 is what if every game you match you play goes to all 5 games. With event just a top32 cut, that's 25 games assuimng you make it all the way to top2. That'd get really tiring on a mental state. And every high stress levels. While I do agree with a time increase on the top cut matches, I think that making it best of 5 would be a bit much. Just my 2 cents.

Well, remember I am only suggesting this for Nationals & Worlds. Players of this calibur (who are Top Cutting Nationals & Worlds) playing for these prestigious titles should be expected to play more games. Additionally, the only people who are playing more games than what they played during previous days are the plays who go the furthest. And you're also assuming they play the maximum amount of games, which even if they do, the games in the Top Cut would average to be shorter games than swiss because of the time limit.

 

[Mystery Thing]

My biggest worry with 120m games would be for the judges. Sitting there watching a game for two hours, where you aren't actually making any decisions, would be mentally antagonizing. I don't care how good of a judge you are, after an hour and 30 minutes of sitting there doing basically nothing, to be expected to instantly be on your toes and able to catch an itsy bitsy mistake seems unrealistic to me.

I'm not disagreeing from a playing perspective, since you're mentally engaged and whatnot. But yeah. For any observer, who isn't actually participating, I could see it being a bucket of really, really unfun times towards the end.

 

[Ness]

There's been a lot of talk of privately-sponsored tournaments in the future, especially from TheTopCut. I would imagine that this kind of tournament would be a great testing ground for these ideas and more, such as 30/40 card deck tournaments, reallowing draws, etc.

 

[P_A]

Ness, again, I mean no disrespect, but I fail to see how that will bring skill to the game in general. Sure, a new format is nice for a change-up, and it's a bit more challenging for those that attend since it's new and (generally) untried. However I don't see how that equates to a general up-scale of skill for the game in general. Nor do I see TPCi jumping on the bandwagon to reinstate draws. I have a feeling those days are dead and gone.

And yes, I can sometimes be a grammer nazi, but you couldn't have heard about those ideas - past tense - "AT" tournaments of the future. However you could have heard some talk regarding those ideas, or "about" future events. Just a thought. Sorry if I offend.

 

[sdrawkcab]

Saw an article earlier this week that explained how the only time games are played with 30 cards are by Juniors in Japan. Masters and Seniors both use 60 card decks like the rest of the world. (with the exception of a few hobby-store tournaments)

 

[Ring-of-Magma]

Saw an article earlier this week explain how the only time games are played with 30 cards are by Juniors. Masters and Seniors both use 60 card decks like the rest of the world. (with the exception of a few hobby-store tournaments)

Might wanna mention that you are talking about Japan, could be a bit misleading otherwise.

 

[vaporeon]

Like I said before. A good way to bring skill back is to kill donks all together. Sure donks can happen. I think they say between the first 3 turns a donk can happen. How do we fix this. You guys remember the 'Call for Family' attack. The problem with it right now is the fact that we lack starter Pokemon. Back then we had cards to search for basics and get them into play on top of the attacks to get them into play.

Another this wrong is we have overpowered basic. While this is not bad but the other cards we are way underpowered. Why do you see reshiphlosion at all the top tables. Sure the best player playing the deck wins but the deck does not take that much skill to play. It just wins. They need to print less powerful Pokemon and bring back the skill related cards.

On top of skill, they need to make a ban list. Card games have ban list for one reason. To keep the game as healthy and skill related as possible. A ban and or restriction list would not hurt the game. A few of the cards we in this format should be banned. Junk Arm and Pokemon Catcher to name a few. The same with some Pokemon and I'll just name Yanmega Prime for now. We have a lot of over powered Pokemon in a format where if the card is not ultra rare, it's not playable.

Skill has nothing to do with tournament match times or how many cards we play in a deck. If we were to use 40 card decks and 4 prizes, everyone would play ZPST and then a lot of people would leave the game. The dragons are broken and should not be in the game. They need to be banned. They are just too powerful for the cards we have now. If they were to play around with the idea of a ban list, I feel the game would get more skill based.

 

[Ness]

Ness, again, I mean no disrespect, but I fail to see how that will bring skill to the game in general. Sure, a new format is nice for a change-up, and it's a bit more challenging for those that attend since it's new and (generally) untried. However I don't see how that equates to a general up-scale of skill for the game in general. Nor do I see TPCi jumping on the bandwagon to reinstate draws. I have a feeling those days are dead and gone.

And yes, I can sometimes be a grammer nazi, but you couldn't have heard about those ideas - past tense - "AT" tournaments of the future. However you could have heard some talk regarding those ideas, or "about" future events. Just a thought. Sorry if I offend.

A 30/40 card deck format isn't intended to bring more skill into the game. I just touched on it while I was discussing private tournaments. And you're right, I didn't mean at private tournaments, I meant of.

Vaporeon, your idea of eliminating T1 donks is great - but it's too hard to change the rules of the game. Instead, let's accept that they do happen, but play more games. If you have to beat someone 3/5 times, you almost surely will have to win one (probably two) legitimate games.

 

[vaporeon]

A 30/40 card deck format isn't intended to bring more skill into the game. I just touched on it while I was discussing private tournaments. And you're right, I didn't mean at private tournaments, I meant of.

Vaporeon, your idea of eliminating T1 donks is great - but it's too hard to change the rules of the game. Instead, let's accept that they do happen, but play more games. If you have to beat someone 3/5 times, you almost surely will have to win one (probably two) legitimate games.

This is true. I just want the game to go back to how it use to be.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

This is true. I just want the game to go back to how it use to be.

How it used to be... littered with an Item for "Draw 2", an Item form of Juniper, and the reintroduction of Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal? We have our Haymaker Pokemon and Gust of Wind.

 

[Crinus]

started back playing again on Friday night, boy do they need to limit Primes.

I also think IMO their is way too much hand and deck shuffling going on to. It seems almost every turn something comes up to shuffle your hand in your deck or draw new cards.