Should we add another benefit to evolving? (If so, what)

[Son_of_Apollo]

I'm not trying to be a downer or anything, but I guarantee nothing will be done to fix this. They're probably writing a "it's Japan's fault" post as I type this. And it is. We have no communication with the higher-ups in Japan, so all we can hope for is that the Japanese players get the message out in their own country

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Stage 1s have always been neglected. Some nice stadium or energy specifically for Stage 1 Pokemon would be nice. Stage 2s have always been a little more luck based to setup - got to draw into (or search into) three specific cards (basic/stage2 and either the stage 1 or candy), but stage 1s are more balanced in that regard. Holding on to a stage 1 to get the basic is OK in a way that holding on to rare candy kind of isn't.

 

[Otaku]

I would actually consider the fundamental "mechanical" benefits of a Stage 1 to be preferable to a Stage 2, before others factors are considered.

It is really quite simple, actually: Basic Pokemon are easier to run and get into play than Stage 1 Pokemon, and both are easier to run and get into play than Stage 2 Pokemon. At least, before specific card effects (like Rare Candy or BTS) are factored in.

The hard part is on the end of TPC: they need to design balanced fully Evolved forms and make lower Stages worth using. Do this and keep from making cards too strong or too weak, and if the format still isn't balanced it is our fault for not playing the game right. XD

 

[tutti]

Instituting a new rule that prevents attacking on each players first turn radically alters how Pokemon plays. Disallowing certain Trainers first turn was a rule change already tried and reversed in the name of keeping the game accessible to younger players. Therefore yes that is "horribly complicated" for younger by the standards set forth by TPC.

Radically? I don't see how it would radically change anything. You'd still use your supporter as well as any items and abilities to set up. If you change the rule to be simply "can't do damage on turn 1", you can even use your attack for the turn to help you set up. It would of course change the game to some degree, but making extreme damage impossible on turn 1, which seems to be the point you're making, is a change. You can't change the game without changing the game.

As for complicated, I don't see it. You can't do damage or place damage counters on your first turn. It doesn't complicate anything. You don't have to look at any card and figure out whether you can play it. Unless your deck depends on the donk, you don't even play differently. You can do anything you'd do today, except damage.

 

[NoDice]

No damage on either players first turn sounds good to me- all else is fair game. And maybe a Rare Candy-esgue stadium would definitely give stage 2s a decent boost. Maybe something like - Flip a coin, if heads search your deck for a stage two Pokemon that one of your Pokemon in play evolves into and play it on that Pokemon. If tails, play a Pokemon from your hand to evolve a Pokemon you have in play regardless of if it evolved already this turn. The second line could also be a separate stadium too. Feel free to pick my idea apart, though.

 

[tutti]

So basically, it's like Rare Candy, except it skips the one-turn wait, you can use it every turn (I assume it's a once-per-turn deal), and with a lucky flip you don't even need the pokémon in your hand? That might go ever so slightly too far

 

[NoDice]

Ok well maybe the second effect- play it from your hand on heads- would work better, and you would still need RC in your deck in case the stadium didnt work.

 

[Otaku]

Radically? I don't see how it would radically change anything. You'd still use your supporter as well as any items and abilities to set up. If you change the rule to be simply "can't do damage on turn 1", you can even use your attack for the turn to help you set up. It would of course change the game to some degree, but making extreme damage impossible on turn 1, which seems to be the point you're making, is a change. You can't change the game without changing the game.

As for complicated, I don't see it. You can't do damage or place damage counters on your first turn. It doesn't complicate anything. You don't have to look at any card and figure out whether you can play it. Unless your deck depends on the donk, you don't even play differently. You can do anything you'd do today, except damage.

Why did we lose the better balanced first turn rules? Because they were deemed "too complicated", which was my point. I chose to describe it that way because you stated that TPC just, you know, designing cards that didn't attack for damage first turn was "too complicated". You know, "not doing" something is usually easier than doing something.

 

[vaporeon]

A better idea would be to keep the first turn rule the same but allow the person to second to evolve their pokemon 1 stage, keeping Rare Candy the way it is now. It will break Leafeon now but when the rotation hits, things would be more of less balance.

 

[NoDice]

A better idea would be to keep the first turn rule the same but allow the person to second to evolve their pokemon 1 stage, keeping Rare Candy the way it is now. It will break Leafeon now but when the rotation hits, things would be more of less balance.

That doesnt really benefit stage twos at all, but it would break Eels since they could effectively evolve 1 to 2 Eels their first turn going second and even power up a Zek EX or Mewtwo even more so than Celebi does now.

 

[vaporeon]

That doesnt really benefit stage twos at all, but it would break Eels since they could effectively evolve 1 to 2 Eels their first turn going second and even power up a Zek EX or Mewtwo even more so than Celebi does now.

That is true but it can balance the first turn out so the player going second does not fall to far behind. It's really hard to come up with a first turn rule everyone can agree with.

 

[NoDice]

I see what youre saying- I just think that if we could make Stage 2s alot easier to play ( I mean ALMOST as easy as big basics) then the first turn rule wouldnt matter as much. Printing cards that accelerate Stage 2 decks like Hydriegon and Gothitelle would make them alot more viable- and even Garchomp when we finally get the DB sets and "possible" rotation happens. Granted the rotation will probably affect big basics/EXs negatively, I dont feel it will balance out Stage 2s with them enough for them to be played nearly as much as said basics.

 

[tutti]

Why did we lose the better balanced first turn rules? Because they were deemed "too complicated", which was my point. I chose to describe it that way because you stated that TPC just, you know, designing cards that didn't attack for damage first turn was "too complicated". You know, "not doing" something is usually easier than doing something.

I said designing it that way would be hard, not complicated. Complicated for TPC isn't a problem. The problem is, as I mentioned in my previous post, that while I'm sure it's something they can do, it only takes one unforeseen interaction between two (or three, or even more) cards to put us right back where we are now for another two to three years. That is what would be hard to avoid.

I see what youre saying- I just think that if we could make Stage 2s alot easier to play ( I mean ALMOST as easy as big basics) then the first turn rule wouldnt matter as much. Printing cards that accelerate Stage 2 decks like Hydriegon and Gothitelle would make them alot more viable- and even Garchomp when we finally get the DB sets and "possible" rotation happens. Granted the rotation will probably affect big basics/EXs negatively, I dont feel it will balance out Stage 2s with them enough for them to be played nearly as much as said basics.

That would just exacerbate the problem with extreme turn 1 damage though, if you let every deck do it. Also, it doesn't help much that you can get Hydreigon out on your first turn when you're going second and Deino gets oneshot, losing you the game.

 

[Otaku]

I said designing it that way would be hard, not complicated. Complicated for TPC isn't a problem. The problem is, as I mentioned in my previous post, that while I'm sure it's something they can do, it only takes one unforeseen interaction between two (or three, or even more) cards to put us right back where we are now for another two to three years. That is what would be hard to avoid.

No think carefully what you just said, it amounts to "That can work unless they do it wrong", which is true of any solution. I thought I was pretty thorough about laying out the precautions that must be followed to avoid unbalancing the game. Yes the changes won't be effective for possibly years, but what difference will that really make to the "now"? Sets already end up being mostly filler; this would just be making them filler with a promise of a better tomorrow.

Avoiding creating broken combos is hard, but this plan should make it easier to avoid, not harder. The guidelines really are pretty clear:

1. Stop making cards that can attack for damage first turn.
2. Dial Energy acceleration way back.
3. Dial back Evolution acceleration.

Number 1 can't be broken without breaking numbers 2 and 3. In the interest of space I worked 2 and 3 vaguely, but I've touched on them in other posts (possibly other threads - I think this conversation has cropped up on at least two others). Energy acceleration on Basic Pokemon must be limited to an attack, and really should be limited to self-acceleration, probably through effects that end the turn. Attacks should be priced taking that self-acceleration into account.


We shouldn't see "big" Energy acceleration until we hit Stage 2 Pokemon, and probably not even Energy transferring until then either. Now we don't end up with the next Zekrom/Pachirisu/Shaymin combo.



It definitely can go wrong, but it seems like a safer bet than continuing as things are now.

I am glad you see (based on your response to later posts) that you realize that accelerating Evolutions, especially in a format ripe with Energy acceleration, will just exacerbate the current problem: we still have big Basic Pokemon that are the most cost effective beatsticks, so all that happens is certain supporting Evolutions can hit the field sooner, speeding up the overall game and maybe giving a small boost to diversity... by making the game even less fun.

 

[bullados]

Otaku, do you mind if I be a little bit more specific with at least one of those rules?

1) No 0 or 1 energy damaging attacks.
2) No Basic Ability/Power Energy Acceleration. No Trainer-based Energy Acceleration. No double energy cards accessible by Basic Pokemon (i.e. bring back DRE/Scramble-like clauses, would make DCE palatable)
3) No Trainer-based Stage 1 evolution acceleration. No Stage 2 evolution acceleration faster than Stage 1 evolution acceleration.

I've got no problems with them releasing a Supporter that attaches Energy, or allows for fast evolution. You're giving up your chance at heavy deck manipulation for that kind of acceleration. Trainers need to be dialed back significantly. I've got no problems with a DRE or Scramble type of Energy. I want DCE either rotated or changed to be Evolution and non-EX only.

There's something about specific rules that makes my inner CompE happy.

 

[tutti]

I know every solution can go wrong. I'm saying that the solution of making high turn 1 damage impossible by card design has a far, far greater risk of doing just that, and that when it does go wrong, it takes a lot longer to fix without going with a different solution.

Also, attacks that can do damage on turn 1 without any sort of energy acceleration are the sort of attacks that do 30 damage with a good flip. Are those really part of the real problem?

As for the problem with the relative power of basics versus stage 2s, that's a separate problem, albeit with some overlap. For that, I don't think the solution is to dial back the speed at which you can play out a stage 2, but rather to disadvantage the abilitybots. Would it help to allow Rare Candy to be used only on the active? Or maybe wait for it to rotate out, then bring back Breeder for the same effect except on a supporter?

 

[Otaku]

Bullados, I am glad you are interested in this, but the reason I didn't go into specifics is that they are specifics; your suggestions already allow for the failures tutti warns about.

I believe many fun aspect of the game that now rage out of control can be allowed, but the specifics will fill pages, not even just paragraphs. Remember players donking people with Stage 1/2 Pokemon, Rare Candy, and a DRE? Requiring a Supporter slows it down but it doesn't eliminate it. That's before factoring in a carefully balanced game where those Stage 2 Pokemon are going to have the potent Abilities. "Early" access to attacks and Abilities matter. Most forms of acceleration (Energy or Evolution) will probably need to be Pokemon Specific.

tutti: You say my idea will make things more likely to go wrong, but you don't actually explain how, nor do you explain why that "how" will be harder to fix than what we already have. Please explain; if I am wrong I want to know it!

The "relative power" issue has been with the game since day one, and ignoring it is why things go cyclical: basics dominate, Evolutions dominate, etc. If you're paying attention, you'll notice I want to dial back the speed of the game. Period. You'll be able to play a fully Evolved Basic Pokemon right away and open with it; a fully Evolved Stage 1 will still beat a fully Evolved Stage 2 Pokemon into play by a turn. What would be different is that being in play won't equal being "ready to go".

Whatever your fully Evolved Pokemon of choice for attacking is, it'll be three turns before it can unload in the fashion common today, and the second turn is the earliest it can go offensive at all.

As for low Energy, unreliable early attacks being part of the problem, Neo Discovery Tyrogue says "Hello and goodbye!" :lol: If you don't know what getting 'Rogued means, I can tell you it has nothing to do with facing a "rogue" deck and everything to being donked by Neo Discovery Tyrogue!

If we have any damage potential first turn, we must basically ban the creation of broad classes of cards. My proposal means that TPC would have to do something quite stupid (like providing a means of recycling and reusing it the same turn) to break PlusPower. It will be best if TPC learns to make cards that don't require "You cannot use this effect first turn" to printed on them. A few are okay, but while I want the game balanced, I also know I need to keep it accessible to all ages.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

But a no attacking first turn rule still makes the game accessible to everyone, it just slows down the game a bit and pretty much prevents donking.

Instead of taking a few years to fix the problem, they can instate a rule change now.

I like the format the way it is, but this rule would help evolutions out.

 

[Otaku]

Actually, it creates a new "first turn rule" and what have we learned?

That they don't like custom first turn rules. Explaining why the second player can't Evolve first turn can be complicated enough. Second, I like set-up attacks. Remember all those suggestions of mine you don't agree with because you feel they rob you of something you enjoy about the game? Same argument applies here for me.

 

[tutti]

I did explain how it can go wrong though - someone makes a card that interacts with a pair of other cards in a way they didn't think of, and this combination allows turn 1 KOs again. I realise this isn't very specific, but that's only because - as you say yourself - your idea isn't any more specific in the first place. Unless I'm mistaken, it's simply "design all cards so you can never attack for massive damage turn 1". The only way I could be more specific against that is if I predicted every possible card they could possibly make ever in the history of mankind, and pointed out the flaw with every single one...

I can do an example though. Imagine if, a couple of sets down the line, this card was released:

Ponyta - Fire - 70HP
Ability: Firecarrot on a Stick: Once during your turn (before your attack), you may attach 1 basic [R] energy to this pokémon. If you do, this pokémon may not evolve this turn.
[R][R][C] Rofflestomp: 40 damage.

Then, a couple of sets later, we get this:

Moltres - Fire - 140HP
Ability: Friendly Fire: Once during your turn (before your attack), if this pokémon is your active pokémon, you may choose one of the pokémon on your bench. For each [R] energy attached to that pokémon, remove one damage counter from this pokémon. That pokémon is now knocked out.
[R][R][R] BBQ: 100 damage. Discard a [R] energy attached to this pokémon.

Can you see the problem?

By the way, I never did experience Neo Discovery. I played this game a little when I was little and the first three or four sets had been released, but I didn't find someone else who played it, so I stopped trying. I didn't learn of leagues until recently, so I haven't been collecting or seriously playing before BW. I did have the privilege of getting donked by a HGSS Tyrogue once though, but I chalked that up to my own damn fault and took Solosis and his line out of my Zekrom deck (I did get to see the full force of Reuniclus+Zekrom+Cofagrigus once though, 'twas a great feeling).

EDIT: [R] is the Fire symbol, right? I can never remember which of that and Fighting had to yield its initial character...