Should we add another benefit to evolving? (If so, what)

[bullados]

And if you want a line that almost perfectly encapsulates everything that Otaku is talking about...







A not useless Basic with halfway reasonable attacks, HP, and Weakness. A Stage 1 that doesn't have the greatest attack, but with a PokePower that nicely sets up the Stage 2. And a Stage 2 that plays nicely off the Stage 1, has a powerful but not broken set of attacks, and is beefy but not particularly agile.

 

[Otaku]

Indeed; I only left out Totodile since I didn't want to appear to contradict my point about "no damaging attacks that can be used first turn".

I'll add that I know Magnezone Prime becoming a toned down Claydol or Quick Search Pidgeot sounds pretty farfetched to some (pardon the pun) and I've heard persuasive arguments against it, but what about Vileplume? One of the same players chiding me about Magnezone Prime then pointed out he'd probably run a 1-0-1 or similar "TecH" line of Vileplume, since any time he was ahead he could drop it and push for the win. I pointed out to him that at least some of the time, he might even be able to safely build up a handful of Trainers to unleash right before locking them down to boot!

 

[Medaforcer]

It's weird becasue we were in a format with magnezone and vileplume that had instant rare candies and I don't remember either one being that bad.

 

[FunnyBear]

All it would take is a seriously playable basic that cannot be damaged by unevolved Pokemon, like Mewtwo Lv. X again.

 

[bullados]

It's weird becasue we were in a format with magnezone and vileplume that had instant rare candies and I don't remember either one being that bad.

With Magnezone, only cuz Uxie was so much better.

With Plume, only cuz SP was so dominant. And it still saw play as a main strategy (2-1-2) in Gengar and Machamp decks.

 

[Otaku]

Don't forget that format had BTS, which Plume doesn't block. Now it would be Oddish=Candy=Vileplume=>No Candy for player 2!

Funny Bear: I fear that would just result in a single clutch Evolution in any currently existing mono-Basic deck. Plus like you said that's a Basic Pokemon, so it fits into all the mono and mostly Basic Pokemon decks already out. It could work, but I am skeptical.

 

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

I do hope (probably in vain anyway) that Japan realises the overpowered-basics problem and releases some PLAYABLE support cards for Stage 1/2s, like BTS or Spiritomb AR reprints.

 

[Otaku]

Except BTS is quite, quite powerful. The only way for it not to be "broken" is if it exists in a format with significantly underpowered (at least when compared to Basic Pokemon) Evolutions. Basic Pokemon do indeed seem overpowered right now, but most of it comes down to some specific examples that often involve other cards (Energy acceleration, Basic Support that was released after said powerful Basics, etc.).

If BTS does balance the format, it is still a problem! That means we must receive only "underpowered" Evolved Pokemon until BTS again rotates out, or we now have overpowered Evolutions! If we do get overpowered Evolutions, guess what? We repeat the cycle! This game started with Basics being more powerful (on average) than Evolutions, then eventually shifted to where things were about equal, and then to now when Basic Pokemon are so blatantly dominant.

 

[Flygon999]

To me, strong Basics should be equal to strong Evolutions. The problem that arises from this equality is that it takes a lot less time and resources to setup a Basic than an Evolution. Thus, there needs to be some advantage to playing the Evolution.

Right now, the basic EXs have the highest HP, and deal arguably the most damage. Minus lacking good Abilities that can energy accelerate or disrupt the opponent's use of trainers, the Basic EXs do everything the Evolutions can do, but better.

In my honest opinion, I think the higher the Evolution stage, the less energy its attacks should require. So a powerful Basic could do 120 for FFC (discard 2 fire), while a powerful stage 1 could do 120 for FCC (discard 2 energy), while a powerful stage 2 could do 120 for FF (discard 2 fire) and it would be kind of balanced.

F = Fighting
R = Fire

It would be hard to discard two Fire Energies if you have two Fightings and another Energy attached...

As much as we all care about the situation, most likely, nothing will be done

 

[Martinek]

I would say just no damage can be dealt on first turn and it would be fine : )

 

[Otaku]

Forever, or just until they get smart and stop making Pokemon that can do damage first turn? =P

 

[tutti]

But pokémon that can do damage the first turn they're placed will always have their place. It's also really hard to design the entire game so that in no way can either player do any damage the first turn, without making it an actual rule.

Although I'd go as far as to say that until the start of either player's second turn, they can't affect the opponent's side of the game at all, except for playing a stadium card. You can't do any damage, you can't Catcher up something more convenient to you, you can't use N to reset their hand. You can, however, use PONT to reset your own hand and then use Call for Family for two basics to your bench.

 

[Benzo]

Change rare candy, or get rid of catcher. Right now it seems that the game is a battle of the basics, and, I do not favor having a deck full of basics, let alone having basics that can't hang without evolving.
My quick 2pennies.

 

[Otaku]

But pokémon that can do damage the first turn they're placed will always have their place.

Going for cheap OHKOs? Yeah, as long as they exist they'll have their place. I don't "like" their place, so I want that place eliminated. Is it clear now? :wink:

It's also really hard to design the entire game so that in no way can either player do any damage the first turn, without making it an actual rule.

Please demonstrate. Maybe it wasn't this thread but I've made it pretty clear on others that it is quite easy; the only drawback is that it will take a lot of time because we must wait for so many sets to rotate out. That is never a good reason not to do something that improves the game, however.

It really just boils down to designating new single Energy attacks (or rather using less common choices more often in lieu of "Tackle", "Scratch", etc.), not printing more Energy acceleration that works first/second turn and still allows an attack, and patiently waiting for all the cards that currently violate those two design rules to rotate out.

Although I'd go as far as to say that until the start of either player's second turn, they can't affect the opponent's side of the game at all, except for playing a stadium card. You can't do any damage, you can't Catcher up something more convenient to you, you can't use N to reset their hand. You can, however, use PONT to reset your own hand and then use Call for Family for two basics to your bench.

That is horribly complicated, and contradicts your own logic; if first/second turn damaging attacks have a place in the game, does first/second turn hand disruption as well?

Just don't design cards that work that way. A first/second turn N only matters if there is a way to force your opponent to take Prizes on those turns. Just shuffling a hand away (even a large one) shouldn't be a big deal when you're taking six new cards from your deck. Pokemon Catcher only matters when you can do something to that Pokemon. If you can at best afflict them with a Special Condition, you use switch and you're fine.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

Keep Rare Candy the same. Change the Trainers on the first turn rule (although Supporters could still be fair on the first turn, except for possibly Jimu and Sabu). Make it so Attacks can't be used on either player's first turn.

I know that severely limits the player going first, but that still grants an Energy attachment for early setup.

 

[Otaku]

...and makes the game horribly complicated.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

...and makes the game horribly complicated.

How exactly? Just instate a rule that says "attacks may not be used on each player's 1st turn". It prevents donks and gives each player a bit of time.

Kinda like summoning sickness in Magic.

And the second turn trainer rules weren't "horribly complicated" in the DP era.

 

[tutti]

I never said pokémon that can do damage the first turn of the game have their place; I said pokémon that can do damage the first turn they're placed have their place. That would

And the problem with just never creating a situation where you can do damage on turn one requires the designers to think carefully about the interaction of every interaction of every possible energy acceleration ability, item and supporter. Take the upcoming Dark Patch card; if you start off with a couple energy and a Juniper, and draw a couple of patches with her, you've now attached three energy cards on your first turn. Or you could have two Celebi and two Switch. I know these are unlikely situations, but they're not ridiculously so. And if you want turn 1 damage to be absolutely impossible, situations like these have to be eliminated.

I think this would either be too limiting on the card designers, or it would require a lot of "you can't play this on your first turn" clauses. The former would harm the game, and the latter would just be really annoying compared to a simple "you can't affect your opponent on your first turn".

 

[bullados]

Why can't the card designers simply make cards that follow these simple assignments?

1) No 1 energy damaging attacks.
2) No Basic Ability energy acceleration.

Simple, and takes out about 90% of what's going on in the game right now. Heck, you could nix the second rule if you really wanted to. It still requires WORK to actually get to the damaging attacks. But right now there is basically zero work required to get to big, damaging, first turn attacks.

 

[Otaku]

How exactly? Just instate a rule that says "attacks may not be used on each player's 1st turn". It prevents donks and gives each player a bit of time.

Kinda like summoning sickness in Magic.

And the second turn trainer rules weren't "horribly complicated" in the DP era.

You realize my comment was in response to the entirety of your own comment?

Instituting a new rule that prevents attacking on each players first turn radically alters how Pokemon plays. Disallowing certain Trainers first turn was a rule change already tried and reversed in the name of keeping the game accessible to younger players. Therefore yes that is "horribly complicated" for younger by the standards set forth by TPC.

This is before factoring in the ramifications on card design, which would force changes similar to my own... on top of altering the core rules again.

Bullados: Because I said it. XD Also because players don't like certain kinds of change; we have them defending failed practices or claiming that not making cards do certain things is harder than designing them to do certain things and adjusting the rules around that!