Ban Mewtwo EX?

[PhadedPhione]

I have yet to lose a Mewtwo war with that combination under normal game rules (i.e. no Plume in play).

There are 3 major decks out right now that need Mewtwo counters.

1. Typhlosion
2. Eelektrik
3. Celebi

All 3 of those have energy acceleration, which makes the necessity of DCE much less (it not nonexistent to some extent). And all 3 of those have big non-Mewtwo attackers that either don't require lots of Energy or don't leave much Energy on the Attackers after Attacking.

Super Rod gets your Mewtwo back as long as you have either Collector or Communication in your hand. There are very few decks out there that don't run max or close to max of both of those cards.

As far as other decks, here's my thoughts...

1) Durant. Doesn't need a Mewtwo counter. Doesn't care about Mewtwo.
2) The Truth. Already plays 4 DCE. 1-2 spots for Mewtwo is generally enough.
3) Gardy/Goth. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
4) Terrakion. Has Energy manipulation. I'm not sure if a Mewtwo counter is necessary here, though.

Basically, think about your deck choices. Think about what you would need to do to deal with Mewtwo. Or if you even really care about Mewtwo at all.

You forgot about trick plays with Revive for your single Mewtwo EX. Like Super Rod + search, it's a really convenient way to punish an overextending opponent.
I'd tech Mewtwo EX into Terrakion simply because an opposing Mewtwo EX + Eviolite can mess up your game.
Durant players using Mewtwo EX are using it basically the same way, to punish an opponent for overextending.

Mewtwo EX is a very efficient card, and when paired with other strong cards, he tends to excel. Does this mean Mewtwo EX needs a ban? Probably not.

 

[vivrelastache]

Bullados explained your point; I am relieved I actually wasn't getting it and that it wasn't meant to be taken at face value. I get to look foolish, but that is nothing new. I would delete this post but it might lead to someone assuming I said something really bad. :redface:

[DEL]Good card design is about more than making a powerful card; hence the comments of cards being "overpowered".



Energy acceleration is something to be used cautiously in the game. Generic Energy acceleration tied directly into a single Special Energy card needs to be used sparingly, if at all. This is what experience has taught us.

Most of what is "wrong" with Double Colorless Energy is wrong with most of the Energy acceleration this format. In general, effects balanced without it become unbalanced with it. You already pointed out that even without factoring in specific offensive strategies, it makes Retreating easier, and Retreat Costs are one of many aspects that balance out a card.

An attack requiring colorless::colorless can now be used without any prior set-up. This is especially problematic when dealing with Basic Pokemon (be they Pokemon EX or otherwise); such Pokemon already are inherently faster and require less deck space. A Basic Pokemon with an attack that requires colorless::colorless has a card that is already generically useful to aid in retreating that can meet that in a single turn. An Evolution with such an attack still requires a turn a turn to get into play.

A Basic Pokemon with an attack cost of (X:colorless::colorless or (XX:colorless::colorless, where X is not a Colorless Energy requirement, again speeds ahead, far faster than it should. Such a benefit is less a concern on Evolutions, since by their nature a lower Stage Pokemon may have an Energy already attached from the previous turn; on a Stage 1 or Stage 2 Pokemon having an attack cost of (X:colorless is just slightly less useful than having a cost of colorless::colorless, and if the attack is priced accordingly, the former will be more powerful in some way than the latter. Costs of (X:colorless::colorless and (XX:colorless::colorless may still be a slight problem, but much less so than on a Basic Pokemon.



Again, you are proving the point; Item Finder (and even Junk Arm) allow reckless or sloppy play for players of all skill level, and reward skilled players exponentially more. Cards should reward skill, but not unduly. Many Trainers are balanced out by the difficulty in searching them out of the deck, and needing to run several to enjoy the effects more than once. Junk Arm allows them to be easily spammed.

If you discarded a critical PlusPower early on, not all of those times will be due to "bad luck". In fact, most of the time that should end up being a misplay.



This one makes me think I just missed your sarcasm. Did I? Gust of Wind is fine... when Items/Trainers aren't easy to recycle and it is much harder to score a OHKO than it is to get a Pokemon back to the Bench. Then it can be used defensively as you mentioned, but using it offensively to score a quick, critical KO means you actually invested appropriate effort into getting that OHKO.

By your reasoning, no Trainer (or Item) is too powerful.[/DEL]

By this line of reasoning, everything is relatively broken and something to gripe about. It's been mentioned that Pokemon Catcher is effective in eliminating bench sitters from resurfacing in this format, which is good because it adds a level of skill that otherwise was only secured via a coin flip or an opponent's misplay with Warp Point. It's resonable to assume with that level of bench manipulation, there would need to be a safeguard to help protect those gusted pokemon beyond Switch. (DCE)

Is the solution a little "overpowered" in a few instances via the current EXs? Yes it is, to a degree, but not in a way that it doesn't give everyone a fair opportunity to use it as well (since it works with most all of the aforementioned EXs and other rare/holo cards). With HGSS most likely rotating, the DCE would be gone as well had it not been reprinted. But, Catcher would be alive and well with no counter beyond Switch.

Does it also allow for surprise attacks and speedier KOs? Yes, it does this as well. But not in a way that hasn't been seen before. If you take a look at te game-state right now, everything has shifted to something similar to, well, the Base Set of yore. Only, instead of ChanBuzz, we have Mewtwo/Celebi/Tornadus, or we have Eels replacing Rain Dance, and next set the Zoruark varients replacing Clefable/Wigglytuff. The next few sets, like the Neo before them, (re-)introduce Dark as a viable type and Dragon as a new type altogether. We have Catcher (Gust). We have Lost Remover/Crushing Hammer (ER/SER). We have Candy (Breeder). We have juniper (Oak). We have DCE. If I didn't know any better, i'd say JPN is creating a game state the likes of which we haven't seen before since Base. Oh wait, that is what they're trying to do, like they did with the last VG: creating the basic (no pun intended) format that resets the playing field back to square one. From a creative standpoint, it makes more sense for the powered cards to be legendary to give them their overdue 15 minutes in the TCG as opposed to making, say Sawk and Throh the heavy hitters in the game (like 'Chan before them).

Is it the format of everyone's choice? No, of course not. But, instead of constantly posting and letting the wine of sour grapes runneth our cups over, why not just go wth it for now? Or, help/support those around you to go with it right now and sit it out for a bit, waiting to shine with the next set/format?or, at the very least, explain these poins to new players so the understand why and help keep them around instead of constantly discouraging fun and growth by needling at all of this?

To the point: no, there should never be a ban list adopted in a game where the main idea is to foster growth amoung new/young players. It's confusing and frustrating to limit their or anyone's choices in that sense, and there will always be a counter-measure released a set or two down the road anyway, so just tough it out and do everything can to help those kids/new players tough it out and enjoy the aspects everyone can find middle ground upon. At the end of the day, it's just a game, one meant to be fun and bring people together. if it's your favorite game, then stick with it, 'cause you know it'll be worth it down the road. Also, Mewtwo's only been out two months, so simmer down already.

Just, everyone, please stop complaining and focus on playing the game and having fun. I'm tired of there being nothing but rants and complaints piling up every day. (Sorry this was so long, btw.)

PS - Sorry for the agregious spelling/grammer errors. I was typing this on my work break on my phone. I'll correct them later, swearsies!
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[baby mario]

Agree with pretty much everthing vivrelastache said, but especially this . . .

Is it the format of everyone's choice? No, of course not. But, instead of constantly posting and letting the wine of sour grapes runneth our cups over, why not just go wth it for now? Or, help/support those around you to go with it right now and sit it out for a bit, waiting to shine with the next set/format?or, at the very least, explain these poins to new players so the understand why and help keep them around instead of constantly discouraging fun and growth by needling at all of this?

No, I don't like the current format as much as I did the first year of DP-on, or even the Luxchomp format. (And wow there were plenty of threads about 'broken cards that need to be banned' back then as well - in fact, when have we not had those?).

But me not liking it as much doesnt make it bad, and there's still lots to enjoy.

 

[NoPoke]

Agree with pretty much everthing vivrelastache said, but especially this . . .

Is it the format of everyone's choice? No, of course not. But, instead of constantly posting and letting the wine of sour grapes runneth our cups over, why not just go wth it for now? Or, help/support those around you to go with it right now and sit it out for a bit, waiting to shine with the next set/format?or, at the very least, explain these poins to new players so the understand why and help keep them around instead of constantly discouraging fun and growth by needling at all of this?

No, I don't like the current format as much as I did the first year of DP-on, or even the Luxchomp format. (And wow there were plenty of threads about 'broken cards that need to be banned' back then as well - in fact, when have we not had those?).

But me not liking it as much doesnt make it bad, and there's still lots to enjoy.

Indeed. What we should be doing is trying for a more acceptable definition of "bad". Though bad is too strong and emotive which makes use of "bad" as a summary of the format likely to produce an emotive response that ultimately is unhelpful . So what signs may indicate a format that will leave many players dissatisfied? I'd look for excessive levels of variability in how players finish. I personally don't believe that Pokemon should go down the route of ever decreasing skill in a chase for more players. As a strategy it would probably work given the rise of online gambling, but that does not mean it is a good path to choose. But I also don't belive that Pokemon should focus solely upon skill - not that I'd have the faintest idea how to achieve that in a card game with randomised decks! Pokemon is never going to be Chess et al.

FWIW I don't believe that N is a bad card. I just don't think it is a great card to have in a format that is seeing an increase in luck's influence upon outcomes. I fear for what decks will have to look like to reduce the negative impact of a late game N on the player who is ahead and has the better board position when N throws a load of luck into the few turns that are left in the current game.

Banning Mewtwo EX will have zero impact upon how this format behaves. Zero impact upon tournament standings. It will have a very negative impact upon players and parents who bought the card or were lucky to pull one from a pack. Banning Mewtwo EX would be an atrocious decision. So if the thread really was a question I'd answer with a very loud NO!

As to the sour grapes nature of the thread.....

there's still lots to enjoy.

says it all.

 

[Shen]

DCE was and still is good card design. It allows for both energy acceleration and comeback potential.
(Can't get your Typhlosion out of the active position? Accelerate 2 Energy instantly, retreat, and continue attacking with Reshiram.)

Scramble was far more balanced. It was the defining factor in so many comeback situations. Even Upper Energy was more balanced than DCE.

DCE allows for ridiculous T1 situations that shouldn't happen. Granted, I think the first turn rules are really the blame because it allows players to gather all of their resources before their opponent has a turn. Still I think the card designers should be aware of what kind of situations they're releasing these kinds of cards into.

Itemfinder was and still is good card design. It allows for both setup and recovery.
(Discarded a critical Pluspower early on? Get it back instantly and score the KO to get back into the game.)

I do like Junk Arm. I think the discarding effect makes it very balanced. What I think is too good is being able to Catcher more than 4 times. See it's not necessarily Junk Arm itself but the powerful trainers it gets back.

Also, Item Finder is far more broken because it can get back Stadiums and Supporters, too. So it's not the best comparison. You're also comparing two completely different formats where OHKO's weren't quite as common.

Gust of Wind was and still is good card design. It allows for disruption and comeback potential.
(Behind in energy attachments for a turn? Gust out your opponent's Eelektrik and stall for a turn.)

imo Catcher allows a player too much control at no cost. Pow! Hand Extension, Poke-Blower+, and even Luxray Lv.X were much better. Still I like Catcher far more than Reversal because it eliminates a luck factor. The best comeback example out of all of those is definitely Pow! Hand Extension.

Again, GoW was originally around in a totally different format. You didn't have to worry about a T1 Hurricane for 80+ or a T2 Bolt Strike for 120+ anywhere on the board and then every turn after. Maybe a T1 or T2 60 anywhere at worst but after that it was back to doing 20 - 40 damage a turn.

 

[Tash]

I do like Junk Arm. I think the discarding effect makes it very balanced. What I think is too good is being able to Catcher more than 4 times. See it's not necessarily Junk Arm itself but the powerful trainers it gets back.

I think it would be, if not for the fact that a lot of current energy accelerations requires energy in the discard to function. Junk Arm's "cost" tends to end up as an added bonus.

 

[psychup2034]

I think it would be, if not for the fact that a lot of current energy accelerations requires energy in the discard to function. Junk Arm's "cost" tends to end up as an added bonus.

Oh my god, the game designers made cards that combo well with one another? The horror!!

 

[ShuckleLVX]

I agree. We should DEFINITELY ban Mewtwo EX.

Lets do it in about, oh.... a year and a half?

 

[vaporeon]

Oh my god, the game designers made cards that combo well with one another? The horror!!

I believe it was said that cards are rotated to prevent unintentional card combos. Combos like Junk Arm and Eelektrik.

I don't think they look at the card pool we have before making new cards and this is evident by the release of Mewtwo EX. Every Pokemon at its final form should be more or less playable.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I believe it was said that cards are rotated to prevent unintentional card combos. Combos like Junk Arm and Eelektrik.

I don't think they look at the card pool we have before making new cards and this is evident by the release of Mewtwo EX. Every Pokemon at its final form should be more or less playable.

Junk Arm and Eelektrik aren't unintentional, after all Typhlosion does a very similar thing.

Of course they look at the card pool or else cards like Holon Adventurer would never have been printed, cards are just often paired with similar cards due to marketing.

 

[vaporeon]

Junk Arm and Eelektrik aren't unintentional, after all Typhlosion does a very similar thing.

Of course they look at the card pool or else cards like Holon Adventurer would never have been printed, cards are just often paired with similar cards due to marketing.

How can you be sure of that. Both cards listed are from different blocks and also, Typhlosion is from the first HGSS set while Junk Arm is from the last set in the block. This game right now is full of unintentional card combos. I think they don't look at the sets before designing new cards. The format is evident of that.

 

[psychup2034]

How can you be sure of that. Both cards listed are from different blocks and also, Typhlosion is from the first HGSS set while Junk Arm is from the last set in the block. This game right now is full of unintentional card combos. I think they don't look at the sets before designing new cards. The format is evident of that.

How can you be sure of that? These combos are from sets released within 2 years of each other and also, Typhlosion was released in the same block as Junk Arm. This game right now is full of intentional card combos. I think they take a hard look at the sets before designing new cards. The format is evident of that.

Fixed it.

 

[vaporeon]

That may be so. HGSS was a 4 set block. Typhlosion Prime I assume we're talking about was released in HGSS Base Set, 3 sets before Junk Arm was released. If it was intended to work with the card or not, Junk Arm was not as powerful in that format as it is now. It's also foolish to say Junk Arm was intended to work with cards like Eelektrik.

In the case of they look at cards before making them. If they did that, we would not have Mewtwo EX which overpowers every Pokemon in the game or a very low HP Shaymin EX that should have been in the last EX format.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

How can you be sure of that. Both cards listed are from different blocks and also, Typhlosion is from the first HGSS set while Junk Arm is from the last set in the block. This game right now is full of unintentional card combos. I think they don't look at the sets before designing new cards. The format is evident of that.

So now cards released in the same year 'weren't meant to be played together,'...what? If anything they were meant to be played together. Considering that Japan has only rotated by block, so for one to be rotated the other would need to be as well. Additionally Junk Arm was released the set directly before BW came out (the set Catcher came out in Japan), so unintentional not me thinks.

 

[psychup2034]

That may be so. HGSS was a 4 set block. Typhlosion Prime I assume we're talking about was released in HGSS Base Set, 3 sets before Junk Arm was released. If it was intended to work with the card or not, Junk Arm was not as powerful in that format as it is now. It's also foolish to say Junk Arm was intended to work with cards like Eelektrik.

In the case of they look at cards before making them. If they did that, we would not have Mewtwo EX which overpowers every Pokemon in the game or a very low HP Shaymin EX that should have been in the last EX format.

Sorry about messing up Typhlosion and Junk Arm. When I posted for some reason I put Typhlosion in the BLW set (wtf was I thinking). :frown:

However, it's really foolish to think that Junk Arm wasn't designed to work in a format with Eelektrik. You have no evidence. That's like saying Reshiram was never designed to work with Typhlosion because it was one of the BDIFs for a while, and a combo used in the BDIF must be unintentional, right?

 

[vaporeon]

Sorry about messing up Typhlosion and Junk Arm. When I posted for some reason I put Typhlosion in the BLW set (wtf was I thinking). :frown:

However, it's really foolish to think that Junk Arm wasn't designed to work in a format with Eelektrik. You have no evidence. That's like saying Reshiram was never designed to work with Typhlosion because it was one of the BDIFs for a while, and a combo used in the BDIF must be unintentional, right?

Not at all. If they work, they work. Same thing with Sabledonk. It was not meant to work with the cards in the format. Yeah I have no proof of that but no game designs cards to work out of block if they are in the same format. That's just bad game design. Eelektrik combos well with Sage's Training and Junk Arm but does not mean it was intended. On Reshi, it combos well with Typhlosion but does not mean it was intended.

 

[psychup2034]

Yeah I have no proof of that...

Cool, glad you're aware.

...but no game designs cards to work out of block if they are in the same format.

I know a game like that. There's this game called Pokemon.

Keep trying to convince yourself that Reshiram wasn't designed to work with Typhlosion, or that Chandelure wasn't designed to work with Vileplume, or that Mewtwo EX and Tornadus weren't designed to work with Celebi, or that Durant wasn't designed to work with Rotom, or that Cobalion and Kyurem weren't designed to work with Electrode, or that Eelektrik wasn't designed to work with Magnezone, etc.

Your argument just isn't holding any water.

 

[Pablo]

I actually think discussing with an actual glass full of water would get you farther than discussing with Vaporeon. He complained about Magnezone, he complained about Typhlosion, he complained about Vileplume, he complained about Zekrom, he... you get the gist of it.

 

[Hikari_Netto]

That may be so. HGSS was a 4 set block. Typhlosion Prime I assume we're talking about was released in HGSS Base Set, 3 sets before Junk Arm was released. If it was intended to work with the card or not, Junk Arm was not as powerful in that format as it is now. It's also foolish to say Junk Arm was intended to work with cards like Eelektrik.

In the case of they look at cards before making them. If they did that, we would not have Mewtwo EX which overpowers every Pokemon in the game or a very low HP Shaymin EX that should have been in the last EX format.

Creatures pays more attention to card interaction than you seem to give them credit for. The DP-On fame point system being played in Japan right now makes it more evident than ever.

Historically, most issues in the game stem from TPCi releasing and rotating cards out of their originally intended order.

 

[Otaku]

Something to consider (but perhaps to reject after due consideration) is that it seems like players sometimes refuse to play as anticipated; everyone likes a certain Pokemon or enough players fall for the hype that balanced card interaction is thrown out of whack.

Decks built around Card A are meant to counter decks built around Card B are meant to counter decks built around Card C are meant to counter decks built around Card A. Unfortunately everyone says Card A is at the heart of BDIF, or its just the most popular Pokemon right now so quite a few players are playing it as much for fun as for its winning potential, while Card C is barely played and Card B is completely ignored.

Unlike Vaporeon, I wonder if the potency of many combos was underestimated, though more and more I take it that TPC just sees the game differently than I thought, or else feels this is a needed "phase" before dialing things back even more.