Ban Mewtwo EX?

[baby mario]

This is also why I made the statement that TPC does not test any cards before they release them. In magic, they have what, 4 or 5 formats that they do official tournaments for and Pokemon has 1. Magic was a game made by players for players and to an extent, yugioh. Pokemon TCG is just another byproduct for the brand and nothing more. Its why we have a card like mewtwo ex in format.

If any care was given, they would have realized that a pokemon that can do 40 to 60 damage turn 1 with a energy requirement that 1 energy cards could give AND tested it enough, they would have realized that the card breaks the format.

Again, you are making the assumption that that is not what Pokemon want. How do you know that they didn't playtest Mewtwo (or any other card that you dislike) and say 'yep, that's EXACTLY the kind of card our game needs'? You don't do you? You think (as usual) that any concept of the game that differs from your own wants must be the result of incompetence.

Well, guess what? Maybe Pokemon don't think like you do. Maybe they don't want to make the game that you want to play.

The ability of Mewtwo (or any other Pokemon) to do 40 for one Energy attachment on turn 1 is NOT breaking the game. It makes playing low HP Basics a risk, but that is not the same thing.

 

[psychup2034]

The fact remains that MTG has basically zero power creep over two decades, while Pokemon has had enormous power creep to the point where the original Power Pokemon are no longer even feasible in an Unlimited format.

Bullados: Counter-example. From GatheringMagic.com
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/problem-power-creep/

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the term "power creep." Magic has been undergoing a steady "power creep" ever since the release of Ravnica. I feel like it's been good for Magic as a whole for a variety of reasons, but it has one major disadvantage – it's killing Standard.

(Standard in Magic is the equivalent of Modified in Pokemon. Legacy/Eternal in Magic is the equivalent of Unlimited in Pokemon, but with a ban list.)

Magic has power creep. Some people complain about it, just as they do in Pokemon. In the recent Innistrad block, Magic did sort of a "soft reset" on power creep, just as Pokemon did with the HGSS block.

People like comparing new cards to older cards, instead of looking at a format as a whole. Sure, Mewtwo EX is a very powerful card, but does the presence of Mewtwo EX in the format add strategy and skill to the game? Does it keep the format fresh? I think the answer is yes.

Personally, I can't wait for Battle Roads, Nationals, and Worlds. From preliminary testing, the HGSS-DEX format looks like lots of fun,

 

[ExoByte]

Psychup: Counter-example. Magic: the Gathering. I'll use a 2-converted-manna cost Red Creature from the Mirage block and from the Scars of Mirrodin block for an example.





You can use just about any example you want. The fact remains that MTG has basically zero power creep over two decades, while Pokemon has had enormous power creep to the point where the original Power Pokemon are no longer even feasible in an Unlimited format.

Personally, I'd pick tournament relevant cards to make this comparison. Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil certainly outclass old tournament staples like Dwarven Trader(Sligh) and Goblin Cadets (Red Deck Wins). Baneslayer kind of crushinates Serra, etc. Magic also sees things fall in power over time too (Just like Pokémon). Nothing is quite Ancestral Recall or Mana Drain (or even Brainstorm or Counterspell!) these days. Saying Magic's had zero power creep is flat wrong. Implying Magic's "Unlimited" isn't mainly newer cards is also wrong. Here's the top 8 of the 2011 Vintage Champs. Jace TMS, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator, Spell Pierce, Bloodghast, Dredge in general.... not exactly Alpha and Arabian cards.

I (personally) think the biggest change that had to happen in Pokémon that started kicking in around Platinum is moving away from 1. For a long time the base line of early Basics was an attack that does 10 (aka 1) damage for 1 Energy. It's really tough to modify that in absolute terms without massive proportional distance. That is, if you want to make a better version of that, you make it do 10 more damage, but that's doubling it. If you make an attack that does 30 do 10 more damage, you've had the same absolute move but with nowhere near the proportional move (100% vs 33%). To have room to make interesting wiggle room, your baselines kind of need to go above that number. HP needs to go up a bit to compensate there. I don't have perfect future knowledge, and can't disclose anything I do have information on, but I'd imagine you'll see the curve flatten out quite a bit for a while w/ Pokémon.

 

[cabd]

Personally, I'd pick tournament relevant cards to make this comparison. Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil certainly outclass old tournament staples like Dwarven Trader(Sligh) and Goblin Cadets (Red Deck Wins). Baneslayer kind of crushinates Serra, etc. Magic also sees things fall in power over time too (Just like Pokémon). Nothing is quite Ancestral Recall or Mana Drain (or even Brainstorm or Counterspell!) these days. Saying Magic's had zero power creep is flat wrong. Implying Magic's "Unlimited" isn't mainly newer cards is also wrong. Here's the top 8 of the 2011 Vintage Champs. Jace TMS, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator, Spell Pierce, Bloodghast, Dredge in general.... not exactly Alpha and Arabian cards.

I (personally) think the biggest change that had to happen in Pokémon that started kicking in around Platinum is moving away from 1. For a long time the base line of early Basics was an attack that does 10 (aka 1) damage for 1 Energy. It's really tough to modify that in absolute terms without massive proportional distance. That is, if you want to make a better version of that, you make it do 10 more damage, but that's doubling it. If you make an attack that does 30 do 10 more damage, you've had the same absolute move but with nowhere near the proportional move (100% vs 33%). To have room to make interesting wiggle room, your baselines kind of need to go above that number. HP needs to go up a bit to compensate there. I don't have perfect future knowledge, and can't disclose anything I do have information on, but I'd imagine you'll see the curve flatten out quite a bit for a while w/ Pokémon.

And this is why I play Pokemon. The people running our localization DO care, DO pay attention, and DO their homework.

Thanks, TCPI, for yet another rational reply to a somewhat irrational thread.

 

[bullados]

Personally, I'd pick tournament relevant cards to make this comparison. Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil certainly outclass old tournament staples like Dwarven Trader(Sligh) and Goblin Cadets (Red Deck Wins). Baneslayer kind of crushinates Serra, etc. Magic also sees things fall in power over time too (Just like Pokémon). Nothing is quite Ancestral Recall or Mana Drain (or even Brainstorm or Counterspell!) these days. Saying Magic's had zero power creep is flat wrong. Implying Magic's "Unlimited" isn't mainly newer cards is also wrong. Here's the top 8 of the 2011 Vintage Champs. Jace TMS, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator, Spell Pierce, Bloodghast, Dredge in general.... not exactly Alpha and Arabian cards.

I (personally) think the biggest change that had to happen in Pokémon that started kicking in around Platinum is moving away from 1. For a long time the base line of early Basics was an attack that does 10 (aka 1) damage for 1 Energy. It's really tough to modify that in absolute terms without massive proportional distance. That is, if you want to make a better version of that, you make it do 10 more damage, but that's doubling it. If you make an attack that does 30 do 10 more damage, you've had the same absolute move but with nowhere near the proportional move (100% vs 33%). To have room to make interesting wiggle room, your baselines kind of need to go above that number. HP needs to go up a bit to compensate there. I don't have perfect future knowledge, and can't disclose anything I do have information on, but I'd imagine you'll see the curve flatten out quite a bit for a while w/ Pokémon.

Beautiful post. Spectacular. That will teach me for speaking about a game that I know basically nothing about.

Still, there are ways to make 1 energy attacks interesting without absolute power creep. Give the attack some interesting effect. We've never seen a "double gust" type attack before, that sounds like a decent choice for 1 energy. Or how about the old Strike and Run attack? Alluring Smile? How about nonstandard evolutions with interesting but not gamebreaking effects like the old Wynaut/Wobbuffet from Sandstorm? How about giving some random, evolving Basic a Safeguard Ability? Or how about an attack that shuts off Abilities for a turn like the old Magby?

You can see that I like attack effects that prolong the game, rather than speed it up. Every effect I listed above is either a setup effect or a disruption effect. You can also have 1 energy attacks with protective abilities that aren't too unbalanced. How about a 1 energy attack that blocks energy attachments to the Defending? Or a 1 energy Turtle effect?

There are so many ways to make the game interesting while keeping something resembling a balance between speed and setup. I just wish that TPC would think of those abilities, rather than something silly-broken like X-Ball.

 

[Otaku]

I was using "8 or so" as a figure of speech. My point was that without power creep, certain decks would never cycle out of Tier 1 and we'd have a pretty boring format where one deck is good for years and years.

Your statement is not true with my understanding of the term "power creep". Unless basically define all card change that proves useful as "power creep", mere changes in a card pool can alter the dominant deck without relying on power creep.

If we don't use such a broad definition, then it is patently false to claim that only power creep causes new dominant decks to arise. You're ignoring how various mechanics of the game interact. A Pokemon can sometimes even be weaker than a previous, similar card but prove stronger for the format due to the card pool. New cards do not have to be stronger than the old, merely different, in order to alter the game.

Even without "power creep", the game can progress. The card pool is not static, and even during the short periods when it is, we still see the metagame shift because there is an inherent advantage to running a novel deck because your opponent is less capable of countering it.

 

[eriknance]

Beautiful post. Spectacular. That will teach me for speaking about a game that I know basically nothing about.

Still, there are ways to make 1 energy attacks interesting without absolute power creep. Give the attack some interesting effect. We've never seen a "double gust" type attack before, that sounds like a decent choice for 1 energy. Or how about the old Strike and Run attack? Alluring Smile? How about nonstandard evolutions with interesting but not gamebreaking effects like the old Wynaut/Wobbuffet from Sandstorm? How about giving some random, evolving Basic a Safeguard Ability? Or how about an attack that shuts off Abilities for a turn like the old Magby?

You can see that I like attack effects that prolong the game, rather than speed it up. Every effect I listed above is either a setup effect or a disruption effect. You can also have 1 energy attacks with protective abilities that aren't too unbalanced. How about a 1 energy attack that blocks energy attachments to the Defending? Or a 1 energy Turtle effect?

There are so many ways to make the game interesting while keeping something resembling a balance between speed and setup. I just wish that TPC would think of those abilities, rather than something silly-broken like X-Ball.

or how about utilizing those "built-in" item cards like md palkia's pearl orb? how about it shouldn't take 10+ years to come up with another win condition (lost world)? or more energy/Pokemon hybrid cards like holons castform? or at the very least, it would be wonderful to see a more pronounced effort at making game-changing stadiums, tool cards, TMs, etc. unseen forces wasn't just known for having tons of EXs, it was also the "Pokemon tool set." legend maker had like 6 stadiums in it. what's our most recent comparison that actually made a difference to the game? I can't even think of one.

I totally agree that the game seems to lack creativity now. i too like the format, but I'd love to see a move towards "effects" rather than attacks. even dark explorers is guilty of this: dark patch is just energy acceleration in a trainer, while dark claw just boosts damage. nothing new here, just more speed and power!!
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[homeofmew]

They didn't Ban Lugia ex or any other high hitting cards, Catcher is atleast has an answer aka Gothitelle or Vileplume.

 

[Pablo]

I'm pretty sure a lot of us could do without most of the people whining about this 'broken game'. You don't like it? DON'T PLAY IT.

 

[Sweet]

I'm pretty sure a lot of us could do without most of the people whining about this 'broken game'. You don't like it? DON'T PLAY IT.

If people don't complain, things don't improve.

Whining and not being able to back your point up is annoying. But if people have good enough reasoning, and use constructive criticism, I don't see any problem with it. It can only help make the game better!

On topic -

Mewtwo EX shouldn't be banned. Most of the top players (who support the game) have bought 2-3 which costs a decent amount of money. They wouldn't be impressed if that money has just been thrown away, and that's only fair enough. Besides - it's not so bad with the next set.

 

[platinumwaiter]

TBH with DEX you can get Tornadus EX which can do T1 60 with a Stadium in play (not that hard) or T1 100 with celebi. Darkrai EX is really good too... Should they get banned as well? Darkrai is arguably just as good as Mewtwo so...

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

The thing is it's not just Mewtwo EX, he's just the scapegoat in the matter. Since B&W one of the key concepts of the game has been thrown out of the window. One young kid at League had an intro pack and was reading through it and we had a laugh at the point where it said something like "Evolve your Pokemon to make them stronger"... or you could just play a big Basic Pokemon and not bother was this beginners response, pointing to the Zekrom in his new folder, even he got it.
EX should have been reintroduced in B&W, and they should have been Reshiram and Zekrom, Mewtwo and co should never have happened. A Basic with 130hp and 120 attack is comparable to a Stage 2. If that Basic is an EX and the Stage 2 is regular, then there's a balance there, there's a drawback to using both. With this approach the nerfing of Candy would have been justified and put the 2 routes to a powerful Pokemon on equal ground.
You can say the format is varied right now, but the tier 1 decks are essentially the same deck with different Pokemon - it's just haymaker/aggro decks, play Basic Pokemon, attach energy, maybe setup an accelerator. Other strategies are Possible, but they're just not worth it.
So in summary No, you can't go banning Mewtwo after people have invested so much in it, but I seriously hope the next series of cards after rotation puts Basics and Evolutions back on even ground and different archetypes become playable again, then I'll be back to buying boxes and playing Modified.