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9/11. The Fall of World Trade Center. (title edited)

against you post more garbage with little facts about it.

like temperature it takes to melt or even begin to bend steel.

essentially the building should of never collapsed in the first place.
So what temperature does steel start to melt? At what temperature does it start to bend. And I guess you don't know anything about psychics, when an object is moving then all the force from them gets transfered to the building. The airplanes where moving ~500 mph.
 
So what temperature does steel start to melt? At what temperature does it start to bend. And I guess you don't know anything about psychics, when an object is moving then all the force from them gets transfered to the building. The airplanes where moving ~500 mph.

yet the buildings didnt sway in any direction when a airplane traveling 500 mph hit did it?

Steel melts at 3000 degrees

it bends somewhere along the lines at 1300 degrees

So if airline fuel reached no more then 1800 degrees in temperature, why was their molten steel on ground zero?
 
yet the buildings didnt sway in any direction when a airplane traveling 500 mph hit did it?

Steel melts at 3000 degrees

it bends somewhere along the lines at 1300 degrees

So if airline fuel reached no more then 1800 degrees in temperature, why was their molten steel on ground zero?
Why would it sway? Please look up how they build skyscrapers. Its not like a tree where its all one big chunk of wood/metal. Also you are forgetting that steel is an alloy, a mix several metals, and that not all steel is the same. Some would melt at lower temperatures, be more or less pliable etc.
 
And, again, we're not dealing with Newtonian physics here. Newtonian physics quite adequately describe the world that we generally see. It does NOT describe the interactions between large bodies with high kinetic energy moving at speeds that, on the ground, we can really only dream about.
 
So why did the third world trade center fall. Nothing hit it, and it collapsed just like the others.

That is one thing that really needs explained. There were just these tiny little flames coming out of it, and it was also a steel framed building.
 
So why did the third world trade center fall. Nothing hit it, and it collapsed just like the others.

That is one thing that really needs explained. There were just these tiny little flames coming out of it, and it was also a steel framed building.

What are you talking about? There were 2 buidings.... not 3. :/
 
Their was 3

3rd building wasnt hit by anything it was near the twin towers.

from what I have heard was the owner of the building said the building was going to be pulled.
 
Bullet, I'd like you to read my prior post. Conventional logic fails hard when you're looking at a giant lump of metal and jet fuel colliding with concrete and steel at 600+ miles per hour... it really does.

As I said before, we're used to knock-over-a-glass-of-water physics, not airplane-hits-building physics. It's a whole different physics model.

And note as I said previously (since I doubt you'll put forth the effort to go back to page 6 to read my prior post), the entire length of the plane from nose to tail passed through an I-beam in roughly one third of a second. Think about what kind of stress and force that would involve.


I give up, these threads don't go anywhere anyway because the people hung up on the conspiracy theories are incapable of changing their minds, even in light of the fact that real physicists tell them they're wrong about the interactions. Specialization is overrated. This is my last post in this thread.
 
I have thought about that to, but nothing explains a building collapsing like that, truly if a collapse was going to happen, it would of been where the plane hit and the floors above it, I dont see how the top part of the building did not bend and break off to the side but instead falls straight down with the rest of the building.

So yeah, planes wont do that, controlled demolitions will.
 
OK, I lied, I'm going to post one more, but only because this one's actually really easy.

Like I keep pointing out, we're only used to the knock-a-glass-over type of physics. The center of gravity of a glass of water is very high, about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the glass usually, and the support base in and of itself is very small.

In order for an object to tip over, the center of gravity has to leave the support base - in other words, the object has to tip a certain distance to reach that 'breaking point' where it's going to tip over. A glass of water is even worse for this because once it starts to tip, the water moves, causing the center of gravity to shift further over the edge. Once the center of gravity leaves the support base, it will fall sideways.

With a building like the World Trade Center, the center of gravity is MUCH, MUCH lower by design, and the support base is ENORMOUS.

I found a resource explaining this phenomenon and in the process, that same resource even talks about the steel failing!

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html Good read!

Here's the pertinent information about why the building pancaked instead of toppling:

Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down.

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

That's why the WTC collapsed. Straight down. Thud.

Planes WILL do that. Again, you have to consider that the physics involved here are VERY different from what you're used to seeing, thus the events of a skyscraper collapsing will NOT match up with every day occurrences your mind is used to working with.


edit: note also that the impact and subsequent collapse did send debris flying all over, which could very well have hit the WTC6 building that "mysteriously" collapsed as well. Nevermind the fact that a good million tonnes or so of concrete and steel just came crashing down, which surely also caused some shocks across the foundations.

edit 2: for some fun, if you want to see just what a low center of gravity and larger support base can do - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article4790465.ece Check out that double decker bus tilt test! There are even sandbags in the top level to represent the weight of people in it. Look how far the bus can tilt before tipping over! Same concept with the World Trade Center, only the WTC is thousands of times larger and more massive even than said double decker bus.
 
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The thing is the link you provide does seem to be correct on alot things.

but this;
It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

Numerous sources I have seen say Steel weakens to about 20% of its strength at around those temperatures which would be 400-600 degrees C (1200 Degrees F). I think this is where the problems arise about this, because it even states in that link the temperatures are not hot enough to melt steel, so the question still comes up, why was molten steel found on ground zero?
 
Here's a few good reads for the WTC collapse.

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf

This is the pertinant information about the collapse. This article was written by practicing Engineers and experts in the field.

The Linked Article said:
Although the structural damage inflicted by aircraft was severe, it
was only local. Without stripping of a significant portion of the
steel insulation during impact, the subsequent fire would likely
not have led to overall collapse (Bažant and Zhou 2002); NIST
2005. As generally accepted by the community of specialists in
structural mechanics and structural engineering though not by a
few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives, the
failure scenario was as follows:
1. About 60% of the 60 columns of the impacted face of framed
tube and about 13% of the total of 287 columns were severed,
and many more were significantly deflected. This
caused stress redistribution, which significantly increased the
load of some columns, attaining or nearing the load capacity
for some of them.
2. Because a significant amount of steel insulation was stripped,
many structural steel members heated up to 600°C, as confirmed
by annealing studies of steel debris (NIST 2005) the
structural steel used loses about 20% of its yield strength
already at 300°C, and about 85% at 600°C (NIST 2005);
and exhibits significant viscoplasticity, or creep, above
450°C e.g., (Cottrell 1964, p. 299), especially in the columns
overstressed due to load redistribution; the press reports right
after September 11, 2001 indicating temperature in excess of
800°C, turned out to be groundless, but Bažant and Zhou’s
analysis did not depend on that.
3. Differential thermal expansion, combined with heat-induced
viscoplastic deformation, caused the floor trusses to sag. The
catenary action of the sagging trusses pulled many perimeter
columns inward by about 1 m, (NIST 2005). The bowing of
these columns served as a huge imperfection inducing multistory
out-of-plane buckling of framed tube wall. The lateral
deflections of some columns due to aircraft impact, the differential
thermal expansion, and overstress due to load redistribution
also diminished buckling strength.
4. The combination of seven effects—1 Overstress of some
columns due to initial load redistribution; 2 overheating
due to loss of steel insulation; 3 drastic lowering of yield
limit and creep threshold by heat; 4 lateral deflections of
many columns due to thermal strains and sagging floor
trusses; 5 weakened lateral support due to reduced in-plane
stiffness of sagging floors; 6 multistory bowing of some
columns for which the critical load is an order of magnitude
less than it is for one-story buckling; and 7 local plastic
buckling of heated column webs—finally led to buckling of
columns (Fig. 1b). As a result, the upper part of the tower
fell, with little resistance, through at least one floor height,
impacting the lower part of the tower. This triggered progressive
collapse because the kinetic energy of the falling upper
part exceeded by an order of magnitude the energy that
could be absorbed by limited plastic deformations and fracturing
in the lower part of the tower.

Also here, its not as techinical, and an easy read.

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm#molten
 
Well, if Steel doesn't melt until X000C, and the temperature wasn't that high, it clearly wasn't steel.

That's an easier possibility to accept rather than: Steel doesn't melt until X000C, but it MUST BE STEEL because people tell me so or I think it is, so something else must have happened like a BOMB!!!!!11one.
 
Bullet... my question to you is... if an airplane filled with jet-fuel that CONTINUES burning can't melt steel... then how could a bomb do it? The bomb does not continue to burn, and it is too quick to cause steel to MELT. You keep asking why there was melted steel there... however, that doesn't seem to be consistent with your OWN theory. Or did the government secretly melt the steel and place it there just to confuse us?
 
Jet-fuel burns at extreme temperatures.

+ impact

+ stress from higher parts of building

+ gravity

= no more building.


simple math.
 
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