And you thought US Nationals was your last chance for Championship Points...

[losjackal]

Do people with 400+ have a different interest in participating than everyone else under 400?


On one hand, they might scoop to their friend, just like someone who in the 0-200 group. They knock themselves out, but at least they helped their friend get past one more round.

On the other hand, they might try their hardest to not let anyone pass. If successful, this could directly eliminate someone they would have otherwise faced at Worlds. One could argue that isn't fair, or some kind of conflict of interest.

 

[K2theAblaM]

Do people with 400+ have a different interest in participating than everyone else under 400?


On one hand, they might scoop to their friend, just like someone who in the 0-200 group. They knock themselves out, but at least they helped their friend get past one more round.

On the other hand, they might try their hardest to not let anyone pass. If successful, this could directly eliminate someone they would have otherwise faced at Worlds. One could argue that isn't fair, or some kind of conflict of interest.

Anything you say about the 400+ crown can be said about the -200 crowd. Both parties have nothing to gain from this tournament.

 

[Otaku]

well, it's not fair to only add value for people of less than 400 CP.... This is what people are arguing.

No... that isn't what people are arguing, especially not consistently. The specific comments I've been addressing are complaining that those who can't earn enough to qualify are allowed to participate, usually citing numbers that ignore how some people with lower requirements could participate.

"Fair" would be having no such tournament at all; it isn't "fair" to those who worked hard to qualify not knowing this was coming up that a tournament that won't have even the possibility of all the skilled players who have already qualified (let alone the top cut of Nationals) playing in it to earn those needed points. Instead, TPCi is being generous or merciful and are getting flak for it.

 

[cadethian]

is there any word on when this will begin/conclude on sunday?
Trying to book flights home is difficult when I have no idea when I'll be done :/

 

[losjackal]

Anything you say about the 400+ crown can be said about the -200 crowd. Both parties have nothing to gain from this tournament.

Except this key difference:

On the other hand, they might try their hardest to not let anyone pass. If successful, this could directly eliminate someone they would have otherwise faced at Worlds. One could argue that isn't fair, or some kind of conflict of interest.

 

[K2theAblaM]

Except this key difference:

Ehh... that difference wasn't even recognized or mentioned by any pokemon staff in this thread. You can describe all rare situations you would like for either group (like i could also mention <200 CP players playing in the tournament to prevent other players from getting invites as well, in hopes of eliminating someone their friend might have faced at worlds), but the only argument that was presented by a pokemon official was this tournament was to give players a chance at more CP AND give value to players on the sunday of nationals.

Excluding the 400+ CP crowd doesn't make sense, any way you look at it.

---------- Post added 06/20/2013 at 06:02 PM ----------

No... that isn't what people are arguing, especially not consistently. The specific comments I've been addressing are complaining that those who can't earn enough to qualify are allowed to participate, usually citing numbers that ignore how some people with lower requirements could participate.

"Fair" would be having no such tournament at all; it isn't "fair" to those who worked hard to qualify not knowing this was coming up that a tournament that won't have even the possibility of all the skilled players who have already qualified (let alone the top cut of Nationals) playing in it to earn those needed points. Instead, TPCi is being generous or merciful and are getting flak for it.

I want people with less than 200CP to be allowed to participate. I also want the 400+ crowd to be allowed as well. I think that 200 CP way to big of a prize to play for against a watered down field, a player cap, and 75 bo3 format lowering the amount of luck that may affect the outcome.

 

[LOLZ]

Serious question for all of you with concerns about this tournament. IF this event played down to a winner and awarded 400 to 1st and 300 to 2nd with T4-T16 prizes remaining the same... will the overall discontent with the aspects of this tournament be more positive then negative?

 

[losjackal]

but the only argument that was presented by a pokemon official was this tournament was to give players a chance at more CP AND give value to players on the sunday of nationals.

We can't expect them to state very possible consideration. So just because they don't doesn't mean there aren't possible legitimate concerns. That's where I'm arguing from, and just don't accept your dismissal of my points just because an official didn't state them. So let's agree to disagree.

I also want the 400+ crowd to be allowed as well. I think that 200 CP way to big of a prize to play for against a watered down field, a player cap, and 75 bo3 format lowering the amount of luck that may affect the outcome.

So now where we can see you are arguing from....that if you don't have the Worlds-qualified players in there, somehow the tournament is watered-down and not worth 200 CP.

I might agree with you if it it weren't single elimination. In the first round, it doesn't matter if you're facing me my 0 points or Jason with his 357 points or Jay with his 900. If you don't win that one single-game match, you're done. Doesn't matter who the other 254 players are. If all of the Worlds-qualfied players get knocked out Round 1, did that suddenly make the rest of the event watered down? I'd argue no.

 

[K2theAblaM]

Enough with your ridiculous hypothetical scenarios. If every worlds competitor lost the first round, then they were at the very least beaten in fair competition, which is leaps and bounds more legitimate than excluding them from competing in the first place. what is your point?

And I will absolutely not agree to disagree when you haven't given me any reason to believe that people with less than 200 CP and people with 400+ CP are in the exact same boat when it comes to this tournament. There is no logical reason why one group should be excluded over another, not within the confines of any argument the pokemon staff has pointed out. you can come up with as many hypothetical situations you would like to fit your story, and we can sit and compare them all day long but the fact of the matter is one group is being discriminated against.

 

[SD PokeMom]

"discriminated against", just like the people with worlds invites who can't play in the LCQ?

 

[K2theAblaM]

"discriminated against", just like the people with worlds invites who can't play in the LCQ?

if you think the worlds LCQ is the same as this nationals tournament, then you should go reread this thread and get caught up on the actual argument. We're talking about chess while you're still arguing basic, basic, checkers trying to interject your feeble points when we're discussing something completely different.

When you figure out that this nationals tournament isn't for a outright invite, but simply points towards an invite, you might be able to come up with a better argument. When you understand that there are people who have nothing to gain (like players with 400+ points AND people with less than 200 points), you will understand that it is discriminatory that one group is allowed to play, while one group isn't. THAT is my argument.

thanks for your time, Doreen.

 

[losjackal]

My point was single elimination. If all of the worlds competitors are eliminated first round by whomever, the tournament plays on with the non-worlds competitors and it's not any easier for a single player to go 6-0 to earn 200 points.

If you insist on debating only within the confines of stated reasons by pokemon staff, then I'm afraid I've got nothing for ya.

 

[K2theAblaM]

If you insist on debating only within the confines of stated reasons by pokemon staff, then I'm afraid I've got nothing for ya.

You mean argue with the facts and information given to us from the only entity that has authority on the situation instead of making up our own points from thin air?

Lol you've got nothing for me huh... Shocking.

 

[Mystery Thing]

K2theAblaM, if it were all up to you, which of the following would you prefer to see:

1) leave it all as it is

2) let the >400 CP players play, who might potentially screw over some of the 200-399 crowd

3) don't let the 0-200 CP players play (/players who aren't within 200 points of an invite in their zone; I think we can all agree that the odds of any non-North Americans showing up to this thing are virtually zero), and remove the points prize for the 16th-9th place players (this option would halve the maximum number of players who could enter (well, for Masters anyways); I think it's only fair then that you expect there to be a removal of half of the prizes by person).

I think those are all legitimate opinions to have, so I have no bias towards any of them. I'm just curious as to which of those three you would like to see.

 

[cf11]

K2theAblaM, if it were all up to you, which of the following would you prefer to see:

1) leave it all as it is

2) let the >400 CP players play, who might potentially screw over some of the 200-399 crowd

3) don't let the 0-200 CP players play (/players who aren't within 200 points of an invite in their zone; I think we can all agree that the odds of any non-North Americans showing up to this thing are virtually zero), and remove the points prize for the 16th-9th place players (this option would halve the maximum number of players who could enter (well, for Masters anyways); I think it's only fair then that you expect there to be a removal of half of the prizes by person).

I think those are all legitimate opinions to have, so I have no bias towards any of them. I'm just curious as to which of those three you would like to see.

I honestly think option #2 is the best. For people who are looking to get invites they should be able to beat the players with invites. If they really are good enough to deserve the 200, 100 or 50 CP they should be able to compete with the world caliber players. If they aren't good enough to compete with them they don't deserve the invite.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

As someone that doesn't have anywhere near 200 Championship Points (yet :wink and is going to be at Nationals, I know I'm not going to register in this tournament even if I could. It really should only be those with a chance to qualify.


Besides, the other side events will keep me happy (if I'm out :wink: ), and also watching all the top placement games as well.

 

[losjackal]

I honestly think option #2 is the best. For people who are looking to get invites they should be able to beat the players with invites. If they really are good enough to deserve the 200, 100 or 50 CP they should be able to compete with the world caliber players. If they aren't good enough to compete with them they don't deserve the invite.

That is logical and several people agree with that conclusion. But similar reasoning can form a different conclusion. I agree they should be able to compete with the world caliber players, but that battle ought to take place at Worlds, in a duly structured non-single-elimination tournament. cf11, do you think the fact that this Last Chance tournament is single elimination makes any difference?

 

[Pikajew1213]

K2theAblaM, if it were all up to you, which of the following would you prefer to see:

1) leave it all as it is

2) let the >400 CP players play, who might potentially screw over some of the 200-399 crowd

3) don't let the 0-200 CP players play (/players who aren't within 200 points of an invite in their zone; I think we can all agree that the odds of any non-North Americans showing up to this thing are virtually zero), and remove the points prize for the 16th-9th place players (this option would halve the maximum number of players who could enter (well, for Masters anyways); I think it's only fair then that you expect there to be a removal of half of the prizes by person).

I think those are all legitimate opinions to have, so I have no bias towards any of them. I'm just curious as to which of those three you would like to see.

Opinion 1. The only real problem I see right now is spacing. I think 0-200 people should be allowes in but only after those who are within 200 points have gotten their spot.

 

[Otaku]

I want people with less than 200CP to be allowed to participate. I also want the 400+ crowd to be allowed as well. I think that 200 CP way to big of a prize to play for against a watered down field, a player cap, and 75 bo3 format lowering the amount of luck that may affect the outcome.

Thank you for clarifying your stance; I did not "get" that from earlier posts, and now I can understand your posts better.

There is no logical reason why one group should be excluded over another, not within the confines of any argument the pokemon staff has pointed out.

The nature of tournament play is akin to grading on a curve; no matter how good or bad everyone performs, the outcomes are differentiated significantly. Even in the improbable event (pardon the pun) that a tournament was filled with players of perfectly equal capacity, one player is still going to come in first and one player is still going to come in last place... even though they are actually equals! This is true not only of Pokémon, but of any such tournament, though in games like TCGs (for this hypothetical that explains an underlying concept) assume players all using identical decks. Now in the real world, this isn't happening... but it illustrates the concept that sometimes people who deserve points don't get them, and some that deserve them less do, and that is just how life is.

Thus when it comes to earning points and invites in general, it is at least possible for "deserving" players to miss out because there were two such players in the final... even if they weren't equals. In a perfect world we could determine precisely from the entire population the best players in the world and get them to the tournament to let them compete for victory.

As we don't live in such a world and it is worse having an empty seat than having someone under qualified fill it, it makes sense to cast the net wide and get "the best of the rest". There is also my earlier point; we can't be sure that the player missing Worlds by one point is any less deserving of a slot than the one who only just meets the requirement... and sadly given the nature of the game, than some that handily exceed the minimum required. It is an imperfect world we live in.

tl;dr: The LCQ not only provides additional "value" for US Nationals, but it also provides a safety net to improve qualified turnout for worlds and avoid leaving someone out because of something like (for example) a U.S. player finishing with 399 instead of 400+ because of a determining game that finished under less-than-ideal circumstances (lucky top deck, coin flip, sudden death overtime) or because they happened to be too ill to go to a tournament*. I know there is more to the discussion but this is foundational to those additional points of contention.

*Seriously, I want players who are ill to know they can risk staying home. I went to an official-but-smaller-venue tournament once where a name level player showed up and dominated... which is what it is. The fact that he then puked over a good chunk of the venue's Men's Restroom and passed what he had onto others was not cool.

 

[MiniWade]

Can Canadians partake in this event? I really need to know! If so I am going.