Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Are decks becoming too "ex-dependent"?

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Venusaur said:
Yea Ditto can KO rayquaza in 1 hit, but it takes 2 energy to use dragon burst and only 50 HP. So you can count on it dying the turn after attacking. It's basically like a free prize for your opponent :(

But you don't need to defend Blaziken. I think decks based on it are among the very best (I consider Gardevoir slightly better because it can be made more consistent while at the same time deliver disruption).

It is simple to have a Ditto with one energy on the bench, very few decks can get to it from there.

Worst thing that can happen is that Rayquaza knock out one of my Pokemon (i.e. Sharpedo), I knock out Rayquaza and he knock out Ditto. That is two prizes for each of us, but I think I will have used the least resources in that exchange (at least one attack less) and it will be Water vs. Blaziken after that because the opponent probably had to use Blaziken to get rid of Ditto.

You can argue that a Blaziken player will have 3 Rayquaza, but there isn't room for that many Pokemon since you need a couple of Blazikens, a Delcatty, possibly an Ampharos and perhaps the Dunsparce you started with.
 
I don't know why someone said they had to sacrifice a Blaziken. If you did you might as well give up after that b/c that is the corner stone of the deck. There are other things that you can sacrifice if you HAVE to. A Good Ninekin deck does 90 a turn or 150 every other turn. The set up time is 85% turn 3-4 with 2 Ninetails, 1 Blaziken and 1 Delecatty. Those are pretty good stats and thats not depending on orcale for your next draw. And the only thing that deck would have to sacrifice is the original dunsparce they used in set up. Not a big lose at all, actually helpful in freeing up bench space.

I really don't see the idea behind Blaze/Ray decks. Am I missing something or do they depend highly on switches/warp points to use Blaziken's power efficiently. That does not seem very reliable at all. But as for BAR I can see it doing well against most decks, but so can Nineken. But in a Nineken vs. BAR, I would place my best on Nineken.
 
yeah i'd definitely have to agree that EX's aren't crucial to win


some decks that are very competitive off the top of my head are

my blazin leaves (arcanine/jumpluff) ---- ask around, it can definitely put up a great fight
my omastar/steelix --- granted i have one EX in it, but it is just a supporter and will be taken out shortly
scizor/furret/sharpedo --- still a deck that commands respect

and now i'm workin on a machamp deck that has come to demand some attention.........


i like EX's but i've never been too comfortable with giving out extra prizes

i wouldn't even think of playin a main attackin EX with less than 150 HP (including RAY)!!!!!
 
When looking at the question of "Are EX pokemon are good for the game or not?", your looking at the bigger overall issue of the modified format. IMO this is the best modified format yet. There are more competitive decks than in any other in the past. In the begining there was Blastiose and Haymaker, then came Wiggly. Next there was the disaster of Prop 15/3C. Remember Rocket Modified. Then Neo modified and the Gator days(easily the most broken deck ever, even more than Sneasel/Slowking IMO). What do ya think?
 
Are decks EX-dependant? OF COURSE THEY ARE.

Are decks TOO ex-dependant? probably not.


Decks have always used the biggest baddest monster that could dish out damage whilst also taking a beating itself.
 
The simple fact that this debate is so vigorous demonstrates that the current metagame is very much alive and in flux.

Back in the Gatr MF days there really was no argument. The only viable decks were Gatr and antiGatr. It came down to argument over which few TecH cards were best.

There are so many viable ideas now. Sure, ex Pokémon figure heavily in the metagame! The heavies have always been important in MF, and the ex Pokémon simply continue the trend.

The current metagame boils down to the abuse of energy. Both Blaziken and Gardy skirt the one-energy-per-turn rule, and this is why they figure so prominently. Just think about it! Most of the supporting Pokémon and secondary attackers manipulate energy: Ampharos, Blaziken, Gardy, Kingdra, Sceptile, Magneton, Flygon, Delcatty. (etc...)

It's all about abusing energy.

If TPC wanted to radically alter the metagame, all they'd need to do is make a card like this:

Level Playing Field
Stadium Card (standard text)

Neither player may attach more than one energy card per turn. If the effect of any Poképower, Pokébody, Trainer Card or Attack would allow a player to attach more than one energy card in the same turn, ignore that effect.

That'd do it, but I'm not necessarily eager to see a card like that released. At a minimum, it would force players to make room for stadium counters (and bring Sceptile back with a vengeance!).

I'm in agreement with those who love the current metagame. Sure, the ex Pokémon dominate it to a large degree, but that's the whole idea!

It's been a long time since we had a deep discussion of the metagame, and I've missed it. We need to do this more often! :)
 
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NoPoke said:
Are decks EX-dependant? OF COURSE THEY ARE.

Are decks TOO ex-dependant? probably not.


Decks have always used the biggest baddest monster that could dish out damage whilst also taking a beating itself.


...and this is especially pronounced now, when the options for trainers are so limited. Let's hope that we'll soon have some really good trainers that punishes/restricts the "big baddies"...
 
Broken Lizard summed it all up in one sentence: The best decks around net you more than 1 energy card per turn, whether it is through a power or an attack, it doesn't matter. If you're ahead in energies, you're winning.

I've seen a lot of EXs played around here, but nothing a deck couldn't handle (either Crystal Shard, Ditto or Ffet to use against them)
I don't think they're too prevalent, Gex can be a pain if it's set up by turn two, but what isn't.
I personally like a more rogueish approach, so when one of our most innovative players started his Gengar/Cradily/Shedinja deck, I could appreciate it.
I just run your cookiecutter Blaze/Catty/Magneton deck, with Shaman for draw and the odd Zangoose teched in due to a prevalence of Flygon and Dragonite EX at my gym.
 
Prime play me, if U are SO sure that Bar beats Niniken, then play me, and dont bring the skill thing on me. If u think u wont beat me cause of ur skill, ask jermy, u know he has great skill with BAR or any other deck, and BAR CAN'T beat Niniken. Nuff said.

decks are ex dependant but not too ex dependant, and even if they were, I didn't enjoy playing as much as I do today, Neon and Ulm. weren't as fun as Eon for me, so i wont complain if its Gardy war or BAR war or non-ex pokes, I love the metagame.

-MuD
 
Today at the Colorado Springs CC in the top games I noticed that Wobuffet was usually the game-breaker. In fact, for the 11-14 and 15-over champions, Wobuffet did a large amount of attacking. The 10-under champion just plain shut off Wobuffet tech with MukEX.

EX Pokemon are great, but if your deck doesn't have other options, you'll loose.

Regarding the discussion that the top three decks (Gardy, BAR, and Amphy) abuse energy attachment, I've gotta agree too. Plus, with Boost Energy in the equation and many attacks now having colorless requirements, there's no reason that most Pokemon shouldn't be attacking every turn.

Actually, I think that 1-hit-KOs are really what drives the current metagame. If you can't 1-hit-KO, you should be doing status effects (paralyzing mostly with sleep and poisoning if possible). The top three EX Pokemon (GardyEX, RayquazaEX, AmphyEX) can do those things. JMO.
 
Tahna said:
Broken Lizard summed it all up in one sentence: The best decks around net you more than 1 energy card per turn, whether it is through a power or an attack, it doesn't matter. If you're ahead in energies, you're winning.

This is a gross generalization, but probably true. :p Gardy: Psy Shadow. Blaziken: Firestarter. Wailord/Aggron: Furret uses its power. (I'm too lazy to look up its name) . This is why Amphy EX is not one of the top three decks. Don't get me wrong, Amphy is great, but Aggron with four metals against Amphy? Even with resistance, Amphy's going down. All Aggron players (I should say most) use crystal shard for Rayquaza and getting around resistance when faced with Amphy EX. But if you play Amphy EX, more power to you. It is a very good deck, and isn't shut down totally by Muk EX: in fact, your strategy still works perfectly, unless you play something like Cooltrainer Aaron's version.

As for the whole supporter deal, if you're reading this Aaron, I have no idea why you're so against them. They won that battle for you. (Yes, I lost to him *laughter ensues* I'll see you all at Cities! :mad: :D) They make decks run quickly, and speed is the name of the game. Every deck has some form of superpokemon speed by abusing powers and the like. Like I said above, you can attach energy quickly, use boost energy to power up super-fast, etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing not to like about supporters. No reason you should continue your, "I am of the belief that decks should not be overly trainer dependent" theory. You're anti-oldschool ;) . Anyway, that's just my worthless input. Read it, ignore it, whatever.
 
Amphy ex IS one of the top decks BECAUSE it CAN abuse energy. Not by attaching them or searching for them but, by moving them to where you need them. That is what Amphy EXP does for the deck.

*EDIT: Just realized that many Amphy decks also play Elekid, which also gets them energy.
 
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I don't mind the game being too ex-dependent, but I don't like the fact that the pokemon tcg is becoming a OHKO game. These OHKO games sometimes make me lose the fun.
 
I agree with Dro. Part of the fun of the game is chipping away at a guy and trying to work ways around his strategies. I don't want Pokemon to become a whole "My monster's bigger and badder than your monster" game. That's too much like (shudders, can't say the name). I'm looking forward to some of the new TA v. TM cards that can counter some of the big guys. Some more strategy and, dare I say, some more flipping coming back into the game wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. (He says, pining for Cleffa, Tyrogue, and Focus Band).
 
Dro~ & Duanojo:

AMEN!

I like a situation where both players have their benches full with Pokémon loaded with damage counters, two prizes each and the active Pokémons doing something like 20 damage going up to 30 (or maybe 20+poison/burn) with an added energy. Then there is time for strategy...

OHKO = Yaaaaaaaawn
 
In a word...

Maybe. Everyone keeps telling me how all they saw were BAR decks (something that was foreign to my "circle", both local and on-line, until a few weeks ago). ANyway, here's an astonishing observation, if we break decks down into three types: BAR, Gex, and then everything else, and say they are all equal, guess what happens when only one out of 10 people run something in the "everything else" catagory? SImply put, show me what happens when we have only one or two BAR and Gex decks amongst 18 other strong decks and all things being equal. THen do it more so that we can more or less eliminate the annoying "fluke" victories. I have played Gex shortly, and have played against it some. I played RaNdOm's Gex deck, he didn't beat me, but he won. I beat me: like most Gex decks, his set-up is key. He's running the deck more or less "turbo", with a minimum of Pokemon. I have one Ffet up blcoking his only Pokemon, and early Gardevoir ex. I ahve another Ffet benched with two Energy. I have drawn 5 of my decks 20 energy, and probably 10 of my Pokemon and 10 of my Trainers. I ahve a Warp point in hand and he has no bench. So... I just need one more Energy, and I can get up there and start hammering on him. I draw a Metal Energy, so I play it on my Steelix, figuring that hey, oddsd are he'd get a basic anyway before I could deliver the death blow, so I better have a back up. The odds of him not drawing a basic Pokemon for two turns were about the same as him not drawing a basic for two turns so... long story short, I don't draw another energy for about 10 turns, and after the first 5 turns he got a Kirlia up and swinging, slaughtering my Ffets to make room for Gardevoir ex to finish of the rest of my Pokemon. Had I just played a Metal on Ffet I'd have one... but now I am getting off track. Most of my deck's are Pokemon-exless.

As for BAR, I really have a hard time believing it's so good. Two Stage 1s are needed for it to be more than just an early one-shot opener. You need Blazikens on the bench. You need an Amphy from Expediion there too. TecH is increddibly important right now, and people seem to be neglecting it. How do I handle Ray ex? Ffet + Crystal Shard = OHKO. A lone Ffet means you gotta bring up your own Ffet to KO mine. Of course, this is where more TecH comes in: Weakness Guard. Sure, Ray ex can use it too, but then the BAR player's Ffets are at a disadvantage.

I have not played against BAR. I will try to play it when I can, but my schedule has been tight with college and all. Spring Break, I can hoepfully get several matches in against this deck.

For those who aren't familiar with how I play, lately I ahve been on my "Gojira" kick. That means I run a deck that features one large monster that hits the active bench with SS Xatu to provide repeated healing. The original deck used T-tar (and if you want to be picky, AQ Espeon with Potion Energy and Healing Fields), hence the name "Gojira", more commonly known as Godzilla. If these decks set up, they are quick potent, as Eon players ahve gotten used to safe benched. For the Steelix version, if it is not OHKO'd, I also have the option of Raging...

Long story short-decks may be too Pokemon-ex dependent, but its still too early to tell. To be fair, I usually am one who defends the Pokemon game perhaps too much, and as of late, Prime is often very pessimistic. As such, the truth is probably as likely between our views. In reality, I have seen few successful ex heavy decks outside of Gex, so I honestly don't think they are a problem at all. Ex's big thing is a savings on energy-most Pokemon ex are really "two" smaller Pokemon. As such, only the Energy savings really matters.
 
You forgot to mention one very major deck in there, the turn 2 M2X, which is an extremely powerful and speedy deck, consistantly beating Gex and going about .500 against BAR. Though not without its weakness (reliance on having 2 cards in the opening hand) it has proven to be one of the top decks in the format. It's only real attacker, outside of the heavy tech? an ex type.

As for your Gojira decks, Otaku, they fall rather swiftly to a well built "monster" ex deck such as M2X, Gex, or BAR. The game is all about the OHKO, not about the steady pileup of damage over an extended period of time (as it once was oh so very long ago...) and the steady pileup of damage, while having the ability to slowly whittle away the opponent's bench, cannot overcome the devestating effects of one OHKO attack, as you have seen in your battles against me.
 
bullados said:
As for your Gojira decks, Otaku, they fall rather swiftly to a well built "monster" ex deck such as M2X, Gex, or BAR. The game is all about the OHKO, not about the steady pileup of damage over an extended period of time (as it once was oh so very long ago...) and the steady pileup of damage, while having the ability to slowly whittle away the opponent's bench, cannot overcome the devestating effects of one OHKO attack, as you have seen in your battles against me.
Yes, our battles. Barely battles. Wanna guess how many epic battles of the Pokemon TCG we have engaged in by my records? 10? No. 15? No-try the other direct. 5? Nope. 3. Articuno. Zapdos. Moltres. Same deck. Same day. One right after the other.

Battle one was a fluke win in my favor. Battle number two was a win for Bulldos, but even he called that one luck, and the third was victory... for me. So, as stated, Gojira decks need more testing against the archetypes. The archetypes ned more testing against eachother. I most ignore me when I say this, but if there is a tournament with 16 people, and 7 play archetype A while 7 play archetype B, with only 2 of rogue deck C, the top 8 will only have two non-archetypes at best. If you want to really know how the decks do against eachother, find a group of friends of similar skill level, give them the decks, and have them spend the weekend playing them. Make sure they practice with the decks first (and that's what reallly makes it hard).
 
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Was that reallly necessary? You could've just PM'd the entire thing, there was no need to post the entire app battle of all 3.
 
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