Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bluffing and SOTG

In that case, the Judge will have to notice it to and say something about it.
However, it seems to be normal to bluff/lie now.

Last week saturday during a SBR, I sat next to boy who why talking loud and bluffing al around without it being noticed...
Then again, the Judges did not notice the person I played against who walked away from the game 3 times!
She got away with it saying that she works with hyper active kids........

I just don't get how that would legalize such actions......
 
vietgamer1021 said:
i take it lying and bluffing are legal then?

i dont like the idea of lying though...its realy against SOTG, what happens when your playing a finals match and a judge is watching what you do?
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I think you have seen a number of judges post that they would penalize lying, and some even bluffing.
How do you get that it's all legal then?
 
In ANY game where not everything is 100% out in the open, and what is hidden (in this case your hand) is vital to your success, deception should be expected. I don't see how bluffing as to where a card is or isn't is any different from someone shuffling their hand a certain way or looking a card like it's important when someone uses an Absol. The skill level in this game is rapidly rising as the numbers get huge again, and any advantage you can find, no matter how small, is vital to exploiting if you expect success. Obviously a line has to be drawn. That line would be drawn where you would try to use a penalty to your advantage. For instance, if you have a Cessation Crystal out, are tied on prizes, and you allow your opponent to complete a power and have the scramble in your hand that could drastically change the game, then point out the mistake as if it were genuine to get the prize penalty assessed, THAT would be a form of deception that isn't allowed. And if I'm not mistaken, a situation like this is already in the penalty guideline, which means the line for us already drawn on where deception/bluffing is allowed.
 
Depends on what the bluff is.
If my opponent asks if I have a DRE in my hand when I know they have a Wager and my hand is bad, I will say "yes" just to get a good hand. If my opponent asks how many cards are in my hand, I'm not going to drop 4 in my lap and say "two", because that would be cheating.

My point of view, if they ask information that is public knowledge, such as cards in hand, damage on a pokemon, ect, you gotta answer correctly, since they are giving you the common courtesy of asking rather than investigating for themselves. If my opponent asks if I can win the game next turn, and I look at my hand and see two Magikarp, I am going to reply "yes" with a straight face, since my opponent has no right to know the cards in my hand, and asked a question about something that they had no right to know.
 
True they have no right to know the contents of your hand. But I don't see how that makes it okay for you to lie about it. Tell or don't tell. That is your choice. Lieing isn't an option in my opinion.

If your opponent asks you about your hand during their turn and you don't want to tell then stay silent or respond with a 'Maybe' or similar.

If your opponent starts asking you about your hand during your own turn then that is distraction and they could easily end up with a penalty.
 
NoPoke said:
True they have no right to know the contents of your hand. But I don't see how that makes it okay for you to lie about it. Tell or don't tell. That is your choice. Lieing isn't an option in my opinion.

If your opponent asks you about your hand during their turn and you don't want to tell then stay silent or respond with a 'Maybe' or similar.

If your opponent starts asking you about your hand during your own turn then that is distraction and they could easily end up with a penalty.
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Its the same thing as when I search my deck with Great Ball and grab nothing, then spring a basinc from my deck on my opponent next turn. They have no right to closed contents, and I have every right to play around with it, within certain borders.

Now, had I said "I got the DRE, good game" in such a case without bieng asked and I didn't, that might not be quite as acceptable (I personally would have no problem with it, since I would ask to see it anyway, but some judges are a bit more Zealous than that).

Not to mention even if I was lying about the contents of my hand, what can a judge do? Come over, look at my hand, and say "You do not have that card in your hand"? From what I see, if you have a problem with a player using intellegent bluffing in a case like this, you simply have a problem, and need to "get over it" because there is no ruling you can give that will not affect the game state.
 
As I said, it's a FORM of lying since you are not telling the truth in order to trick your opponent into doing something that favors you.


I did not say it's completely the same thing.
Can you get your head around that?
 
Bluffing is not the same as lieing. Bluffing is about making your oponent draw an incorrect conclusion. I have no issue with bluffing that uses game legal actions. Its only when players make statements that try to make lieing acceptable that I see a problem with SotG. So go ahead and bluff, but if the only way you can bluff is through deceit or lieing I'd advise you not to try your version of 'bluffing' because lots of us will just call it what it is: lieing.
 
If someone is obviously digging for information about your deck, hand contents, etc., then bluffing seems appropriate in a competitive situation.

However, if a player initiated bluffing "out of the blue," then I suppose it would be up to the judge and the situation.

SoTG is essential but should be taken in context with the desire to win. Players who win WITHOUT bluffing will probably gain wider respect from judges and players.

So, I suppose the answer is up to how you feel as well as what your local judge thinks about bluffing.

Caution and infrequency seem to be the key elements. Bluffing COULD get you in trouble.
 
Not telling the truth about state of game, rulings, or public knowledge=Lying

Not telling the truth about contents of hand, deck or prizes=Bluffing

Am I right?

By the way SteveP. this is the most well discussed discussion the pokegym has had in a while major props
 
Jaeger said:
Not telling the truth about state of game, rulings, or public knowledge=Lying

Not telling the truth about contents of hand, deck or prizes=Bluffing

Am I right?

By the way SteveP. this is the most well discussed discussion the pokegym has had in a while major props
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You mean the 10 page epic on HIGH ROLL didnt float your boat??? :lol:

Keith
 
Lawman said:
You mean the 10 page epic on HIGH ROLL didnt float your boat??? :lol:

Keith
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I think he was looking for discussion, not regurgitation and refusal to read. :nonono:

Anyways, if something isn't public knowledge, why should there be a penalty for being "dishonest"? The game doesn't know what's in a player's hand unless there is a card effect that reveals it. The game doesn't know what's in a player's deck, hence why on purpose failed searches are allowed (I'm not so sure I agree with them, but they're allowed regardless). As long as truth bending is only with private knowledge, then I don't see how the game could penalize them.

Heck, the main reason people would ask "How many cards are in your hand?" is to know how many cards to draw with Copycat, or if they have a good probability of removing a useful card with Galactic's Wager. Telling them you have 2 cards in hand when you really have 6 would result in a game error, and SHOULD be penalized for lying because a card effect resolved in a way that was incorrect (wrong number of cards were drawn).
On the flipside, asking someone "Do you have that Kingdra EX in your hand?" can't cause any game errors. Your opponent when using an effect like Shiftry EX or Milotic d gets to look at your hand and verify for themself whether you're lying or not, thus preventing any misplays unless you conceal what then becomes public information. Since those types of truth bending can't cause rules to be broken (it can cause unintended cards to hit the table, but nothing illegal would happen), there's no reason to penalize them.
 
but what about the situation where YOU say "i dont have scrambles/DREs" and in reality you do?

thats directly lying, not answering an opponents question, what do you think of that?
 
vietgamer1021 said:
but what about the situation where YOU say "i dont have scrambles/DREs" and in reality you do?

thats directly lying, not answering an opponents question, what do you think of that?
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"How many prizes do you have left?"
"I have 4"
"...But I can see with my eyes that there's 5 left."
"Yeah, so?"
"You just let me attack with a scramble attached when I couldn't have..."
"Well then, you made an illegal move."

That's lying about public information. see the result? Illegal move? Forcing an illegal move should be penalized.

Now... Say one player is considering playing Crystal Beach. There is a Battle Frontier already in play, and replacing it with Crystal Beach would allow their opponent to energy draw with Delcatty. Of course, for all the Crystal Beach player knows, their opponent might be able to win without need of drawing extra cards. So they ask:
"Do you have a DRE in your hand?"
"Yep."
"Okay, I'll play the Crystal Beach to counter it."
"Sure, why not. It doesn't matter since I don't actually have one in hand anyways. BTW, you just got rid of that Battle Frontier in play, which allows my Delcatty to energy draw now."
"Say what?! You lied to me!"

Do you see any moves that aren't legal within the game system? Any damage to the game state? I don't. Sure, the person got manipulated into an undesirable move. But playing Crystal Beach does not break any rules, as opposed to the previous deception, where an attack was made, and possibly a prize drawn, that was not possible.

In summary: Public Knowledge being lied about should be penalized, because there ARE card effects that depend on Public Knowledge, and deceptions to force the opponent to break the rules should not be permissible. However, there is nothing dependant on Private Knowledge without forcing that knowledge to become public (see my Milotic d example in an earlier post), thus with no capacity for Private Knowledge causing an illegal move, there's no substantial grounds to disallow it.
 
A lie remains a lie even if you try to call it a bluff. If you can't bluff without lieing then either learn how to bluff properly or don't try.

There are so many ways of answering an opponents probe about your hand or deck that don't require you to lie and don't give any information away. You do not need to resort to a lie to bluff. The aim of a properly executed bluff is to leave the recipient more unsure of your hand and intentions after than before. Good bluffs increase uncertainty in the opponents mind. You do not have to resort to lieing to achieve that.

Try using the defense that it isn't lieing but bluffing at USA nationals when you are caught telling an untruth. You might get away with it. Or you might not.

Planning on using the bluffing makes lieing okay defense? You may as well try rehearsing your answers when you are asked to justify how lieing is consistant with SotG. Good Luck with that one, there is always next years tournament to look forward too.
 
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IMO, Bluffing is acceptable to an extent. Cards in your hand are PRIVATE knowledge (unless something allows the opponent to look at your hand) As such, anything said regarding the players contents in hand, other than hand size, should not be taken as 100% truth. I can say I have a scramble,. DRE, Candy, etc even if my deck doesnt run it. WHY? Cause I could trick you into misplaying. Now you CANNOT LIE about anything PUBLIC. Prizes remaining, prizes faceup, cards in hand, cards in deck, contents of Discard Pile, the playfield, etc.

If you are caught lying at 1 of my events, expect a penalty, but if you bluff without lying about the gamestate, then kudos to you my friend.

~Duke
 
Bluffing is acceptable.

Lieing isn't.

If you can't "bluff" without lieing then not only are you failing to bluff properly but you are also lieing.
 
People, play poker if you want to bluff so badly.
This is a friendly game where there is NO need to fish out which cards you opponent has in hand.
The whole point is is the surprise in how the game goes. There are no strong Pokemon, only Pokemon
with Weakness and Resistance. If you are afraid to lose, then you are a sore loser that should not be playing at all.

As I said, Bluffing is a form of lying since you are BENDING the truth.
If you are so desperate to get a victory through bluffing, then it's your call.
 
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