Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bluffing and SOTG

POP Penalty Guidelines - Unsporting Conduct: Major said:
• Attempting to manipulate a match through intimidation or distraction.
Click to expand...
Just about any form of bluffing COULD fit this definition. However, depending on the bluff, it might not fit this definition:
POP Penalty Guidelines - Unsporting Conduct: Major said:
Infractions in this category have a direct impact on event operation or cause a small degree of emotional distress to those around them.
Click to expand...
For some, a match is already a stressful situation. And to them, losing can be very emotionally distressful. But, you can't penalize a player for causing this kind of self-imposed emotional distress. If a player is already nervous, it's not your job to calm him down.

So, plenty of things you do COULD distress your opponent. Your mere presence could be intimidating (ie., Yamato). That hairy mole on your neck could be distracting. The real question is, are you doing something purposely, unsportingly, and illegally.

Like NoPoke stated, you'd have to show me something that says it's forbidden to show cards in your hand to your opponent. Where does it say I have to use "due diligence" to keep my hand secret?
 
The rules clearly state that the use of bluffing, in any manner, can subject you to penalties.

Is bluffing a dubious action (yep)

Is bluffing meant to decieve (yep)

Are you trying to influence the play of your opponent (yep) badly worded in the rules, but this is the intention of the rule in my opinion.

Given that the rules are guidelines...if a judge catches someone bluffing, could they penalize them up to a game loss for their actions under the rules? ABSOLUTELY.

Bluff all you want. Just realize, that your actions can lead to a game loss, and other penalties above that given the opinion of the judge on your actions.

Could be a "come on" or a "caution"...could be all the way up to something harsh.

If I were reading this, and were considering bluffing, I would prepare myself for the entire range of penalties I set forth above.

Want to bluff at my events and let a judge catch you...your penalty will fall in that range...

Don't think so. Try me. I am not bluffing.

Vince

Note - will I start at the maximum penalty??? Depends on a lot of factors.

Remember. A judge has the first and foremost responsibility to the integrity of the event, and to the players in that event. You do something that pushes the envelope, making the envio less than pleasant for your opponent...be prepared to be penalized.

Also...what comes around goes around.

Vince
 
Vince, you called bluffing dubious (adj., shady, fishy, suspect). That's where some of us differ.

It's sometimes hard for some to distinquish between a lie and a bluff. In literature, they're often considered synonyms.

In the context of competition, bluffing, faking, re-directing, etc., are such common tactics that rules need to be specific about what form of bluffing is illegal. Remember my example of the quarterback staggering the snap count to entice the defense to jump offsides? That's a legal bluff. But flinching to entice the defense is NOT a legal bluff.

Bottom line: Bluff legally. To some, that's an oxi-moron. To me, it's a game strategy.
 
And Steve..you force yourself into the head of the judge making your call.

and the risk, that given the guidelines, a referee may have very little mercy for a player who is trying to win through less than honorable tactics.

Bluff away, but don't cry "that can't be a penalty" when you are slapped for something you feel is within the guidelines. It is not you who determines the limits, but your referee/judge in this matter.

Appeal too strongly, and penalties will escalate.

This game should not turn into, well, who can fool their opponents the best.

It is a grey area, but one that should be lightened rather than darkened.

Vince
 
That's fine. I can accept judges who don't like bluffing. At least I know what to expect and can adjust my game accordingly.

As long the judge doesn't lecture me about "morals," but points to some rule or guideline that my bluff violates, I'm totally OK with that.
 
think of the worst your opponent can do to u and expect it if it doesnt ur lucky and ur playing against a bk
 
your hand and deck are not known to the public

so you can say anything you want, but it can be true or not true

but lying is bad

but your opponent shouldnt have to believe you (in fact you dont have to believe yourself) so its their fault if they do believe you...

but lying is bad...

im confused now o_O
 
If you're looking for something "black and white" as far as bluffing rules, you won't find it. If you plan on bluffing, talk to your PTO and HJ.

About the only kind of bluffing that is universally acceptable is something that doesn't involve a lie (ie., silence, honest/legal questions, game actions). Beyond that, it's up to the PTO/HJ and is ruled case-by-case.
 
NoPoke said:
Bluffing is acceptable.

Lieing isn't.

If you can't "bluff" without lieing then not only are you failing to bluff properly but you are also lieing.
Click to expand...

most of the best bluff tecniques involve lying

someone grabs a wager with a scott, you say "ah cheers, my hand was raw sewage anyway"

thats a bluff, it is a bluff because i may be telling the truth or i may be lying. as people have already stated, it is your choice to belive me and keep the wager or ignore it and play the wager of even believe its a bluff and play the wager, up to you. this is why alot of aspect of bluffing involve blank lying to the opponent. because i lied about whats in my hand, something you shouldn't know, it is a bluff. if i tell you i have a 4 card hand whereas i have 6, then i am breaking the rules. see the difference?
 
Lolganium. Check out the penalty guidelines on intimidation and distraction. Your 'my hand was sewage anyway' has every chance of meeting the requirements for a penalty. Now it is true that not every judge will view it that way, or that those judges that do will always hit you with a penalty. But when you pickup the unsporting conduct major penalty don't say you weren't warned.

I realy thought that SteveP's post http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1096243&postcount=228 brought this topic to a clean end. ah well onwards towards page 24 I guess.
 
I have to say when asked if i play X card my answer will take the same veiw as a card that would let me search for it, All Face down game zones are private knowledge so me saying No isn't a lie just a falure to find.....
 
im sure if i said my hand was sewage AND it was then a judge would penalize me for possibly lying against SOTG whereas if i lied then the same thing would happen anyways
 
Alright, you want examples. Let me try a few legit bluffs:

- You're searching your deck. You then sigh in frustration and say, "Ah, that card is prized." If your opponent asks, "What card?" You say, "A card I wish wasn't prized." No lie, just a riddle for your opponent to figure out.

- Your opponent asks you if you have Scramble Energy in your deck. You say, "Knock out my Pokemon and find out." No lie, just a response to make your opponent wonder.

- You play TGW. In a Bart Simpson voice you say, "Rock always wins." Playing the part of Lisa, your opponent shoots paper as you shoot scizzors. Not a lie, just a psych.

- On your opponent's turn, he uses trainers and powers to draw a big hand. You comment, "man, you sure do have lots of cards in your hand." No fibbing, just a comment to make your opponent wonder why you said that.

- Speed Stadium is in play. It's your opponent's turn. You're down to one prize, but your opponent has turned the game around and only needs two prizes to win. His deck is low. You notice he looks frustrated as if he doesn't have the card he needs. You mention, "you could use Speed Stadium if you're looking for a card." Your opponent immediately picks up the dice and procedes to roll 6 heads, decking himself, with no way to recycle before his next turn. Not a lie. You suggested a legit action where your opponent failed to assess the risk.

- And last, back to an earlier example from one of the contributors in the topic. Your opponent asks you how much damage her attack will do this turn. You say, "60 base damage, before weakness, resistance, and other effects." Your opponent responds, "will that knock out your Pokemon?" You reply, "I'll let you figure that out." No lie, just an encouragement that your opponent needs to figure some things out by herself if she's ever going to learn the game well enough to be competitive.
 
Last edited:
NoPoke said:
Lolganium. Check out the penalty guidelines on intimidation and distraction. Your 'my hand was sewage anyway' has every chance of meeting the requirements for a penalty. Now it is true that not every judge will view it that way, or that those judges that do will always hit you with a penalty. But when you pickup the unsporting conduct major penalty don't say you weren't warned.
Click to expand...

okay, well then theres alot of people getting away with alot of warnings and penalties cause theres alot of people that do it, whether anyone likes it or not. the fact of the matter is, i'm just givin them the chance to re-consider what there doing, which is a bluff. and if my example has ilegal propperties, then bluffing is illegal, which is complete crap if you ask me.
 
lolganium said:
okay, well then theres alot of people getting away with alot of warnings and penalties cause theres alot of people that do it, whether anyone likes it or not. the fact of the matter is, i'm just givin them the chance to re-consider what there doing, which is a bluff. and if my example has ilegal propperties, then bluffing is illegal, which is complete crap if you ask me.
Click to expand...

NoPoke never said it was actually a penalty. He was just saying that SOME judges may interpret your statement different ways and it COULD be found to fit the definition of a penalty. Understand where he is coming from?

Keith
 
lolganium said:
most of the best bluff tecniques involve lying

someone grabs a wager with a scott, you say "ah cheers, my hand was raw sewage anyway"

thats a bluff, it is a bluff because i may be telling the truth or i may be lying. as people have already stated,
it is your choice to belive me and keep the wager or ignore it and play the wager of even believe its a bluff and play the wager, up to you. this is why alot of aspect of bluffing involve blank lying to the opponent. because i lied about whats in my hand, something you shouldn't know, it is a bluff. if i tell you i have a 4 card hand whereas i have 6, then i am breaking the rules. see the difference?
Click to expand...

Who decides which hands are crappy ?
Lets say you have Candy Gardevir Ralts Scramble (or sth like that in your hand) and the judge wants to give you a penalty for lying, he can't prove your lying.
Maybe this hand is crap for you, and you'd prefer to have 4 feebas. Of cause this is dumb, but then you're not lying, and so the judge can't do anythink, because otherwise he might penatilise someone for bein a bad player.

"My hand is crap" is a statement that can't be wrong or right, so the judge can't do anythink.
If the player says the hand is crap, than the hand IS crap because its up to the players interpretation of the game to decide if his hand is crap or not.

e:/ stupid cencorship, and wth does "baloney" mean ? never heart that word oô
 
I'll repeat myself.. Make a statement that intimidates or distracts your opponent and you risk a penalty. That is ANY statement that intimidates or distracts, it is not restricted to lies. Also it is not the players who get to decide on intimidation and distraction but the judges at the event.

There can be a lot of friendly banter across the table and not all of it is the "whole truth". I don't want to stop friendly banter. But just because friendly banter is fine does not mean that all banter of any kind is allowed.

Lying and SotG are not happy bedfellows.
 
NoPoke said:
I'll repeat myself.. Make a statement that intimidates or distracts your opponent and you risk a penalty. That is ANY statement that intimidates or distracts, it is not restricted to lies. Also it is not the players who get to decide on intimidation and distraction but the judges at the event.

There can be a lot of friendly banter across the table and not all of it is the "whole truth". I don't want to stop friendly banter. But just because friendly banter is fine does not mean that all banter of any kind is allowed.

Lying and SotG are not happy bedfellows.
Click to expand...
I need to jump in with one caveat. The intimidation or distraction MUST be intentional. Same goes for lying.

If I ever have to play Yamato, I'm going to be intimidated! :confused::frown:

If I ever have to play Jessicca Alba, I'm going to be distracted! :eek::thumb:

:lol:
 
LOL.. what SteveP just said! :D

I'm not so certain that it must be intended to cause intimidation because without mind reading skills it is nigh on impossible to know what any player truely intended by their actions. In law isn't there a principle that you take your victims as you find them? Which would translate to pokemon as: if you observe your actions causing distress then desist.
 
Yaknow, we could all just play the game in a straightforward manner and not worry about all of this...

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

SteveP said:
I need to jump in with one caveat. The intimidation or distraction MUST be intentional. Same goes for lying.

If I ever have to play Yamato, I'm going to be intimidated! :confused::frown:

If I ever have to play Jessicca Alba, I'm going to be distracted! :eek::thumb:

:lol:
Click to expand...

hahahah i am sigging that
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top