Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Catcher? Will it ruin the format?

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Gust of Wind broke the game when games took longer to set up and there weren't one hit KOs everywhere. Why would anyone think this time will be different? (if not worst)

I actually have been playing this game when Gust of Win was out and as I can recall there were no Trainer lock in Base Set - Fossil. It wasnt until Slowking was printed that gust of Win became useless. In this format we have all Cleffa, Vileplume, Pokemon Collector, 4 Pokemon Communication, Rare Candy, and the Twins engine. So even if you run 4 Catcher and 4 Junk Arm that is 8 cards compared to my 2 Cleffa, 3-2-3 Vileplume line, 4 Collector, 4 Communication, 4 Twins. That is my 22 card option vs your 8. I can get out my Vileplume easily even if you Catcher the 1st Oddish and ko it.

I really dont think Catcher will ruin the format. Look at the 2nd place deck at Worlds it ran Vileplume consistently. If I didnt have to face my own son in the Grinder I make it into Worlds with my Vileplume build since I was 4-0 at that time and who knows? You may want to argue that Reversal was a flip at Worlds but so what if they did hit the reversal on one of the Oddish's it just triggered my Twins. A good Vileplume player is not going to drop one Oddish at a time, they are going to let one get sniped or Catchered and then next turn Twins for a Candy and Vileplume on the 2nd Oddish. My point is this upcoming year lock decks will be more prevalant to stop Catcher. Dont forget emerging Powers also brings us another lock Pokemon in the ability Gothitelle. Base Set Gust of Wind never had this much against it!!
 
Running more basic pokemon isn't skill.

But convincing your opponent to kill one of them off is.
 
Just out of curiosity, what deck was worth running in the reversal meta that isn't worth it anymore in the Catcher meta? Am I the only one to be paranoid about all those kids who always flip heads?
 
Catcher single handedly kills off anything with a stage 2 in it... if i can catcher and take a prize every single time, add 2 junk arms and i can catcher 6 basics and win the game its going to be a haymaker year
 
Gust of Wind broke the game when games took longer to set up and there weren't one hit KOs everywhere. Why would anyone think this time will be different? (if not worst)

Because there were ohkos everywhere and games didn't take longer to set up.
 
Because there were ohkos everywhere and games didn't take longer to set up.

Heymaker used Gust of Wind to break the game. Just never let the opponent setup.

What decks utilized OHKOs early game back then? Pokemon didn't do nearly as much damage. One Hit Kos weren't as rampant.

---------- Post added 08/23/2011 at 05:18 PM ----------

Also, if your only solution to a broken card is "Vileplume", that's a problem. The game should be wide open with many different decks able to compete... if your options are either "Abuse catcher" or "VILEPLUME", there's something wrong.
 
Heymaker used Gust of Wind to break the game. Just never let the opponent setup.

What decks utilized OHKOs early game back then? Pokemon didn't do nearly as much damage. One Hit Kos weren't as rampant

OHKO's did happen a lot because the deck was so fast. Sure Pokemon did less damage, but HP was also lower. You also had PlusPower, Item Finder, and cards like Oak to dig through your deck to make sure you got them. Between them, the Haymaker Pokemon covered most Weaknesses as well.

Also, if your only solution to a broken card is "Vileplume", that's a problem. The game should be wide open with many different decks able to compete... if your options are either "Abuse catcher" or "VILEPLUME", there's something wrong.

Not really . . . you have a card, and you have a counter. That's the way it is with the key cards in any format - you can't just expect to be able to ignore them and carry on playing what you like. Many different decks can play Vileplume, just as many different decks will abuse Catcher, so the variety is still there.
 
Wigglytuff was pretty good at it (ironically, 60 damage by turn 2 wasn't a rare occurance), so was sneasel and rocket's zapdos when those came out.
 
OHKO's did happen a lot because the deck was so fast. Sure Pokemon did less damage, but HP was also lower. You also had PlusPower, Item Finder, and cards like Oak to dig through your deck to make sure you got them. Between them, the Haymaker Pokemon covered most Weaknesses as well.



Not really . . . you have a card, and you have a counter. That's the way it is with the key cards in any format - you can't just expect to be able to ignore them and carry on playing what you like. Many different decks can play Vileplume, just as many different decks will abuse Catcher, so the variety is still there.

So you can manage to make Hitmonchan or Electrabuzz one shot every turn like you could with Reshirem? Dang, with basics ranging from 40-60 hp, I didn't know you could get "jab" or "thundershock" to one shot a pokemon every turn for 6 prizes. Even with 4 plus powers and 4 item finders, that's not plausible.

Variety is still there? Stage 2 decks are dead. There's literally Megazord, Megajudge (well see how it fares with catcher) Trainer Lock, Zekrom, Reshirem...and that's about it winning everything. The meta is very straight foward, and compared to like something like Magic, just makes for a simple uncreative game.
 
Pokemon Catcher single-handedly kills off Stage 2 Pokemon... and is trying to steal your jobs! :rolleyes:

C'mon people, if you're going to debate this try sticking to the facts and not exaggerating to the point of proving yourself wrong. There is the slightest chance that Pokemon Catcher will completely end Stage 2 decks. There is also the slightest chance that someone will drop a winning lottery ticket and I will find it. Realistically, the most probable outcome is that like in the early days of Unlimited, only the most powerful Stage 2 decks will remain... but they will still be Stage 2 decks.

A lot of people here are demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of how the Unlimited format has worked over the years. I'd like someone to tell me what Basic Pokemon can score six OHKOs in the first six turns without a deck behind it. Zekrom? Without Pachirisu and Shaymin, what can it do on its own? Outrage first turn with a Double Colorless Energy, and the damage that does is 20 plus whatever damage Zekrom has already taken. Sure, they can spam PlusPower and use Pokemon Catcher to KO your smallest Pokemon but look at what we are requiring... its a deck!

What about Unlimited? In the early days of the game, what about then? We had Professor Oak. No, Professor Juniper is not Professor Oak: Oak was a Normal Trainer, basically an Item. Back then, so was Bill. So instead of being forced to choose between a single Professor Juniper and a "Cheren", I could hypothetically drop between four and eight "Item" Professor Juniper in a single turn, then drop between four and eight "Cheren-minus-one" Items as well. The "four-to-eight" refers to how many Item Finder I chose to use up on re-using those two. We also had a Twins that may have required discarding two cards from hand to use and only got one card, but it was an Item and didn't require you be behind in Prizes. That's be Computer Search. Oh, and this being before Trainers got sub-types, it also means that Item Finder was like a Junk Arm that worked on any Trainer. Let all that sink in...

...now start adding cards we don't see used much because the closest equivalents have been nerfed. Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal. You don't need OHKOs when your opponent has to resort to single Energy attacks or successfully Evolve into Blastoise from a 40 HP Squirtle. In the modern format we have a choice between an Item that only works on Special Energy (though it does remove them from play) and an Item that requires a coin toss to remove an Energy.

Lastly, Stage 2 Pokemon are just better made now. True, most Pokemon are better now, but basically Unlimited was the handful of well designed Pokemon for their format duking it out... and I mean handful. When we go Base Set, you got two core deck types that worked well enough to be truly competitive. Not just BDIF but competitive. You went from "Can win tournaments" to "Only for fun". There was no middle ground. Well, small card pool, right? Jungle added two more decks... or did it? Clefable and Wigglytuff needed "partners" to really work. Basically, the Haymaker "graduated" to a beatdown deck. While we got a few more playable cards than just those two, it wasn't much. Really just Scyther, and that reinforced Haymaker and Beatdown decks. Fossil finally gave us some new core type decks. We now had Rain Dance Beatdown, Toxic Gas Beatdown, Only Basics Beatdown, and Stage 1 beatdown. Three sets. Three viable Stage 1 Pokemon. One viable Stage 2 Pokemon. Even only five or six viable Basic Pokemon!

tl;dr: This isn't Unlimited at any point in its history. Hyperbole is just confusing the issue because the exaggerations being used aren't taking fundamental points to their logical extent.
 
BOLDED WORDS

And stage ones aim to take 6 prizes in 6 turns :v

stage 2s are better made now? There's barely any stage 2s from BW- worth playing.
 
Yes, I bold words for emphasis. I am poor at being concise, and the emphasis helps some people follow. I'd just use capitalization, but alas that is considered "yelling" for a message board. Similar rude people have made it so putting words in bold for emphasis is little better I am afraid.

What can I say, I am used to having to repeat myself over and over again because my writing skills aren't the greatest, especially on a message board, and far too many people have poor reading comprehension skills, a major problem for the USA, at least.

Oh well, at least I can further clarify one point: most people are saying that it will be six prizes taken during a players first six turns. That is impossible for a Stage 1 or 2 Pokemon, and almost impossible for Basic Pokemon. Now whether or not a person taking six Prizes, one per turn, starting their second turn is any better... well that certainly is open to debate.

This, like saying that Emboar and Vileplume decks will cease to be undermines the efforts of those trying to argue that Pokemon Catcher is a big problem.
 
I think what everyone here is saying Pokemon Catcher puts too much emphasis of the format. I'll say it could be a lot worse but the big difference between mod and Unlimited is that mod tries to be as balance as it can be, though they are failing hard at it.

Early base set days had counters. Pidgeot's and Dragonite's -30 fighting weakness was very powerful and I'm sure there were some good lightning resistance Pokemon. Then, 1 for 20 or 30 was huge or you can waste your card trying to oneshot a Pidgeot with Hitmonchan. The huge difference now are basic's that hit for 120 damage for 3. Lugia needs 5 for 80 and the fact they have 130 HP. Thats MASSIVE for a basic.

The next issue is the face the released Reshi and Emboar in the same set. We also have decks that aim to take a prize a turn. ZPS aims to ether donk or take a turn one Prize. That on top of being able to choose their next 2 or 3 KO's can hurt you because you can only run 4 copies of your main Pokemon line. Donphan/anything aims to take a Prize on their second turn and take as many,( if they can), Prize cards as they can the next following turns. What if Donphan goes first? They get first evolve and KO because of catcher. Then there's Junk Arm.

You can't compair our legal format to Unlimited because Unlimited accounts for way too many things because the whole card pool is legal. P!P knows better then this and they still chose to print the card.
 
Early base set days had counters. Pidgeot's and Dragonite's -30 fighting weakness was very powerful and I'm sure there were some good lightning resistance Pokemon.

Seriously? If you wanted Fighting Resistance you turned to Scyther. I did not play competitively back then (and to be fairly was never a success when I tried to be competitive later XD) but I tried to learn about stuff after the fact. This is the first I've heard of either of those cards having been used in Unlimited, at least beyond the "well, might as well try to build a deck around [insert Pokemon/]!" That's the thing about Resistance, it isn't full proof. You have a Haymaker face a Dragonite deck (happens to me in the old GBC game) and you just do what I did: rely on Electabuzz and Scyther.

As for Lightning Resistant Pokemon, was anything in Gym Heroes or Gym Challenge any good? I mean that were Lightning Resistant? None of the Lightning Resistant Pokemon were good in Base through Rocket. Otherwise I think it was the Neo Block when we got some solid ones, though it took some time for them to see play due to other factors. The main way for dealing with a problem Type is usually to hit its Weakness as best as you can. Tyrogue certainly discouraged Lightning-Type Pokemon other than Rocket's Zapdos.


Then, 1 for 20 or 30 was huge or you can waste your card trying to oneshot a Pidgeot with Hitmonchan. The huge difference now are basic's that hit for 120 damage for 3. Lugia needs 5 for 80 and the fact they have 130 HP. Thats MASSIVE for a basic.

Just a reminder, Zekrom needs a deck behind it, has Fighting Weakness in a format with Donphan Prime, and when it uses its big attack, it hits itself for 40 damage. So after one attack its a 90 HP Pokemon. Reshiram needs a Stage 2 behind it.

The next issue is the face the released Reshi and Emboar in the same set. We also have decks that aim to take a prize a turn. ZPS aims to ether donk or take a turn one Prize. That on top of being able to choose their next 2 or 3 KO's can hurt you because you can only run 4 copies of your main Pokemon line. Donphan/anything aims to take a Prize on their second turn and take as many,( if they can), Prize cards as they can the next following turns. What if Donphan goes first? They get first evolve and KO because of catcher. Then there's Junk Arm.

You can't compair our legal format to Unlimited because Unlimited accounts for way too many things because the whole card pool is legal. P!P knows better then this and they still chose to print the card.

First and foremost many of us are referencing Unlimited at various times, including when it was the legal "Standard" format, as well as when it had only a few sets. So I most definitely can compare. Just as when people are going on about Junk Arm when Gust of Wind had Supporters that weren't Supporters and Item Finder that could recycle any Trainer.

Perhaps most annoying is this pretending we haven't had OHKO formats before. In fact, most formats are dominated by decks that do just that. The big deal this time is that Stage 1 decks can pretty reliably go off second turn, Basic decks can sometimes go off first turn, and Stage 2 decks are struggling to go off reliably second turn but should be good by that player's third turn. Again I don't consider this an ideal format but the sky is not falling. If a Zekrom player uses Bolt Strike on an Oddish and it isn't for game, that player is probably going to lose. In fact, if Zekrom uses Bolt Strike on anything below 70 HP and it isn't for game, it is probably a waste. Especially first turn. Think about it. First turn of the game. You commit a massive amount of resources to take one Prize. Like I said, totally worth it if this is for the win, but otherwise that early "lead" is just going to leave you drained for the rest of the match. I know ZPS decks are built around pulling this stunt repeatedly, but we'll see how well they can sustain themselves.
 
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Its just the last few post you made were talking about Unlimited. You can't compare our 6 sets to like 50. In Unlimited , you have gust of wind and catcher to deal with as well as a few other broken cards and to know knowledge, Unlimited is all about preventing play and lock decks. They added supporters to the game because they realized how powerful cards were.

You're right about this format not being the first OHKO format. When I played during the EX series, only a few decks could do it, but in required some kind of setup and at any given point in the format, we had a ton of decks. You you wanted speed, you had it but late game deck could still win you over. Same with power decks. They started slow but could win when they got going. The 2 Prize drawback was also good for the game. Since D/P came out, the game got stupid.

Right now we have the same 3 or 4 Pokemon winning in many decks. That should speak for how bad things are now but we do have a few sets coming out so who knows. Just saying Catcher gives too much control to fast deck.
 
@Otaku are you serious about the whole not using Zekrom on a basic thing? Because that's absolutely ridiculous. If you go first and do that twice you're already up 2 prizes before they even get the chance to evolve. Sure you might struggle from there but that's the whole risk you take with speed decks.
 
Variety is still there? Stage 2 decks are dead. There's literally Megazord, Megajudge (well see how it fares with catcher) Trainer Lock, Zekrom, Reshirem...and that's about it winning everything. The meta is very straight foward, and compared to like something like Magic, just makes for a simple uncreative game.

I think it's funny how you say Stage 2 decks are dead but 3/5 of the decks you posted as being the only ones winning use Stage 2s as their setup.

The format is fine. Decks will change and people will come up with new combos. It's like that every time a new set comes out, this is nothing new.
 
I think it's funny how you say Stage 2 decks are dead but 3/5 of the decks you posted as being the only ones winning use Stage 2s as their setup.
.

Those are the ones that are playable NOW. Before taking catcher into consideration. Dunno how that wasn't obvious enough.

---------- Post added 08/25/2011 at 10:51 AM ----------

Don't get me wrong, the game isn't "broken" per say...but the game has gotten a lot more simple and dumbed down since HGSS-on. It's gotten even worst with BW-on. Now with catcher, running creative techs or decks that revolve around synergy involving more than 2 Pokemon just can't exist for the most part.

I'm still playing the game and having fun with it, but the game truly feels like a simple kid's game now.
 
I'm still playing the game and having fun with it, but the game truly feels like a simple kid's game now.

Wait... Pokemon isn't a Children's Card Game?

It seems simple. But so are many games and sports. They're simple to play, but there are also masters who really understand the minute details of the game and therefore do better than the average player. Catcher does not make bad players good. It does not make good players bad. It doesn't even reward the rich as it's an uncommon card, not an ultra rare. The biggest complaint when it comes to players in the game is that Catcher makes mediocre players better.
 
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