Cheating on Camera

[Glumanda]

Pooka....what have the Organizers said when you ask about videotaping? Do they embrace it, or a bit hesitant? I'm asking because the community scrutinizing videotaped matches games for cheating and slowplaying has got to be giving someone in Bellevue an ulcer.

I think no one in Bellevue has to get an ulcer over this.

1. I think the discussion about slowplaying is an important one. In my opinion, there is way too much slowplaying in the game and it is not penalized often enough. Videotaping help people discovering that you do not have a local problem with something, but a global problem (because you have videos from maybe different places). Sometimes it is important to see things from another perspective to recognize that something is wrong.
Videotaping could help uncover problems in the game and therefore help TPCi to refine their tournament rules and penalty guidelines which are unfortunately not "living" documents. And I think that could be a good thing.

2. With the increasing videotaping, TPCi should think about a policy if and when videotapes can be used as evidence. MTG has a policy for this which say two things:
i) Videotapes done for the purpose of coverage are not allowed to settle rulings during play.
ii) Videotapes done for the purpose of coverage may be used for investigations after the event.
What does this mean:
You are not allowed to look a videotape to settle a "He said, she said"-argument, but you are allowed to use it for an investigation if one the players purposely lied in that situation.

 

[Glaceon]

First off this is disgusting. Secondly, getting your opponent to not cut your deck doesn't have to come down to respect, trust, or making them feel bad. Psychology can play a large part in getting your opponent to not cut your deck. All you have to do is establish a sense of rapport and tell your opponent what action you want them to take.

As an experiment, I'd recommend you play a few games at league. DO NOT stack your deck, but try to get your opponent to not cut your deck. Typically all it takes is when your opponent offers you their deck, say "no cut" firmly, and give your opponent a smile. The firm statement means that that is the action you want to take place and the smile establishes a sense of rapport. After a few examples of these, the opponent will stop cutting as long as you refrain from cutting. From the cheater's point of view, if neither player cuts, the cheater is ahead (assuming the opponent isn't stacking either). Stopping a person from cutting your deck is honestly fairly easy even if you have never met your opponent.

To any players reading this, make cutting/shuffling your opponent's deck a habit. If your opponent draws without offering, make sure you call them on it. Demand a reshuffle. Experienced players do not make this kind of mistake. 9/10 times, if your opponent is experienced (been playing for a while), they're trying to cheat if they don't offer cut. Be a good person, offer your opponent cut, and make sure you shuffle/cut your opponent's deck. You aren't the bad-guy for demanding to cut. You're just a reasonable player playing a reasonable game. If your opponent makes a big deal about it, that means you probably nailed them on it. Don't feel bad about exercising your right to ensure that you aren't getting cheated.

Once in top cut my opponent shuffle and let me cut; I shuffled instead and he mulliganed. He shuffled and then I shuffled his deck, and the judge told me that since he mulliganed I shouldn't really need to shuffle his deck. If the judges are telling me not to shuffle my opponents deck, there is something wrong.

 

[Charranitar]

5-4 I'm pretty sure

6-3, 67th place...

 

[Rogue Sensei]

Once in top cut my opponent shuffle and let me cut; I shuffled instead and he mulliganed. He shuffled and then I shuffled his deck, and the judge told me that since he mulliganed I shouldn't really need to shuffle his deck. If the judges are telling me not to shuffle my opponents deck, there is something wrong.

That is odd. You are always allowed to shuffle your opponent's deck. I also always shuffle in my top cut matches. It is really the only way to prevent any kind of stacking.

 

[Pooka]

Yeah, I know players consent to being videotaped. But think of it this way: as soon as the vulnerability afterwards overshadows the glory of being selected, players will begin to politely decline. I suspect anyone being singled out now is going to think twice the next time. And maybe by extension the Organizers won't want this issue to be part of their events.

Carlos, I understand your concern, and it's one that I share as well. One of the things that disturbs me about the community is how quick we are to jump on others' mistakes. I am a firm believer that having your matches on camera is going to benefit you in the long run because it will open your eyes to things you may be doing wrong. However, in the short term, having people criticize or make fun of you for your mistakes or your mannerisms is something that people don't want to deal with. Unfortunately, this just comes with the territory. I don't want people to be ridiculed, but I can't control what others do.

As a commentator, I do my best not to be harsh on players for mistakes or to make fun of them in any way. The only exception to this is when a friend is playing, and I know that I won't offend him/her. It is my job to point out when people make errors; it is not my job to laugh at them for it, nor should I. I have played this game for many years, and I know the pressures of playing in a big tournament. Nobody is perfect, and there are all sorts of circumstances that can lead to making a wrong move. I hope that more viewers can take this point of view instead of just saying "lol wow he's bad" every time someone messes up. I think the person who misplays already feels bad enough about it without others chiming in.

On the subject of PTOs liking what we do, I can't speak for them. In general, I have had nothing but positive feedback, and they seem like they want us to be around to cover their events. I've been thanked by several judges and staff members for our efforts. During tournaments we are always told to inform the head judge if we see anything suspicious happening on camera so that they can monitor cheating. It's not our place to make rulings or call out someone for cheating, but they do want to know if we find something suspicious.

Overall, this is new territory for everyone involved. We're still trying to figure out what our relationship is to the events. We aren't really staff, so we don't have any business in any staff matters. On the other hand, we're a little more than just media covering an event since we're at the tables. It's a fine line that we'll have to walk for a while. There will be some bumps along the way, but I am positive that what we are doing is going to benefit the game and its players in the long run.

 

[Cyrus]

Watched the video. I don't think there can be any doubt about what went on there.

Very, very scummy, and very very stupid. So glad they were caught on camera.

Nah, there still can be. We're about 95+% of the way there (how convenient it ends up as his top card...definitely LOOKS horrible), but there's potential doubt about intent vs insufficient randomization. Plus, we don't even have either player commenting on the matter yet - either Soles analyzing what happened or Newman defending himself.

P!P needs to see this and certainly take action, because at bare minimum the rules were broken. But until we knock out most of that remaining 5%, let's just chill out and not raise the pitchforks yet.

 

[K2theAblaM]

Nah, there still can be. We're about 95+% of the way there (how convenient it ends up as his top card...definitely LOOKS horrible), but there's potential doubt about intent vs insufficient randomization. Plus, we don't even have either player commenting on the matter yet - either Soles analyzing what happened or Newman defending himself.

P!P needs to see this and certainly take action, because at bare minimum the rules were broken. But until we knock out most of that remaining 5%, let's just chill out and not raise the pitchforks yet.

It's not "insufficient randomization" tho. Newman saw the catcher as it fell out, and proceeded to put the card EXACTLY where he needed it. There wasn't even an attempt to randomize it... it was the very first card that he drew off his next hand.

There's no debate, what transpired in that video was cheating, cut and dry.

 

[SMP88]

Nah, there still can be. We're about 95+% of the way there (how convenient it ends up as his top card...definitely LOOKS horrible), but there's potential doubt about intent vs insufficient randomization. Plus, we don't even have either player commenting on the matter yet - either Soles analyzing what happened or Newman defending himself.

P!P needs to see this and certainly take action, because at bare minimum the rules were broken. But until we knock out most of that remaining 5%, let's just chill out and not raise the pitchforks yet.

After putting the Catcher back on the bottom he did a shuffle that placed the bottom card on top, then proceeded to do a side shuffle that deliberately didn't disturb the top card. He knew what he was doing. That also doesn't account for the other time when he was looking at this deck when he played an N to know where the energies were.

 

[baby mario]

Nah, there still can be. We're about 95+% of the way there (how convenient it ends up as his top card...definitely LOOKS horrible), but there's potential doubt about intent vs insufficient randomization. Plus, we don't even have either player commenting on the matter yet - either Soles analyzing what happened or Newman defending himself.

P!P needs to see this and certainly take action, because at bare minimum the rules were broken. But until we knock out most of that remaining 5%, let's just chill out and not raise the pitchforks yet.

He very deliberately placed the Catcher at the top of the deck, and then did not disturb it with further shuffles. That's the 95+%

Adding his deck to his hand and looking through it after playing that N?

OK, nothing is certain in this world, but that brings it close enough for me to feel the word 'scummy' is justified. If he is an inexperienced player, or someone with a reputation for honest play who made an error under pressure, then maybe there would be a tiny speck of doubt. Is he either of those things?

 

[Zarmakuizz]

This video is a great resource about cheating, this topic a good How To Avoid This.

 

[PokePop]

Once in top cut my opponent shuffle and let me cut; I shuffled instead and he mulliganed. He shuffled and then I shuffled his deck, and the judge told me that since he mulliganed I shouldn't really need to shuffle his deck. If the judges are telling me not to shuffle my opponents deck, there is something wrong.

Depending on how much time was left in the match and if you were up a game, shuffling excessively during set up can be a stalling tactic. I wouldn't second guess a judge on this without being there watching it myself.

 

[Glaceon]

Depending on how much time was left in the match and if you were up a game, shuffling excessively during set up can be a stalling tactic. I wouldn't second guess a judge on this without being there watching it myself.

First game, time had not started.

 

[kirwin3180]

8:15 and 21:00 are so conspicuous.

ban this guy

 

[rokman]

The fact he did this on camera just means he is so comfortable/use to doing it, that it didn't phase him at all.

Sigh.

 

[meganium45]

@losjackal

As a PTO, Worlds Judge, and fan of the game.....

I fully support the Top Cut videotaping matches, and have invited them to each and every event I run, even before the cool kids were doing it.

For the record Pooka, Alex NOW knows all about the Top Cut and we love it at Yeti.

We had a crowd on Sunday watching one of our own - Zack Z. (honchvire) winning on camera with his rogue deck!!! Way to go ZZ!!

Now, if I could only get a MAT to display at my store......to promote.....

Seriously, you do a great job guys.

Vince

 

[bullados]

Yes, rather than cut/don't cut, you should vary where you cut.

You should always, always cut. I cut everyone I play, even Creatures employees.

And also intersperse those with quick shuffles as well. I can mash 3-5 times in under 5 seconds, if not faster than that, as long as my opponent has sleeves. When they don't have sleeves, I can do 1-2 riffles in the same 5 seconds. And I do this randomly throughout the game, between cutting. I always try and shuffle to start the game, though sometimes I can forget.

 

[Cyrus]

Re Kablam, SPM, and Mario: All I'm trying to do is get everyone to see that we have no real context yet. I have my own feelings about this, believe me, but if we start approaching every video we see from an "at first glance" reaction, and don't really give it an exhaustive second and third look-over, we'll be doing future players a huge disservice in case something similar happens.

 

[butlerforhire]

I was one of the first people to spot the Catcher manipulation at 8:30 (my name is grandiosity87 on Youtube and you can see my comments there). I have watched that portion of the video numerous times, and I am absolutely convinced that Newman knowingly shuffled in such a way as to put the Catcher on top and leave it there for a guaranteed draw. There is no "5% doubt" for me. Newman's past record speaks loudly here too -- this isn't some stranger to controversy. He's clearly a veteran at "sly" manipulation who just so happened to get caught on camera this past weekend.

This isn't an ill-conceived witch hunt, nor is it a cruel "laugh at a player making a mistake" party. This is the community rightfully speaking out against blatant cheating. Pitchforks are fine -- necessary, even.

 

[Cyrus]

Oh, we know that. Newman has a very bad history. But we need to approach all cheating topics much more carefully than some have done here. Many of the principles posters are using here can and will be applied wrongly to future videos, so we need to avoid that from becoming an issue now.

I'm much more concerned about innocent people being accused of cheating than I am of Newman. An ignorant player could do this exact same thing, only in the context of a mistake as opposed to deliberate cheating (which is what I admittedly think happened here).

 

[Yako]

Just watched the first 9:00. Newman cheated 100%, no doubt. The second that Catcher dropped he completely changed his shuffling method so it would end up on top. Prior to the turn where he cheated, he always side-shuffled and riffle-shuffled, and then when the Catcher dropped he very-obviously switched shuffling method. Also, prior to that his opponent had ALWAYS cut his deck when N was played.

Something has to be done about this by TPCi. The evidence is there, AND this guy has a history of cheating apparently.

Also, as far as people refusing to get recorded playing: People who don't cheat have nothing to worry about. As far as people getting criticized for slowplaying (Ross) or mannerisms or whatever, that's part of life. Also, in Ross' case it might help him play a little faster, which according to him would be to his advantage since he loses games he shouldn't due to time more often than he wins them. Good players will understand that getting recorded is all to their advantage.