City's Is Over, On To States, What Are You Expecting?

[JokerBoi]

U guys must have not read Phanpy, or realized how much better it makes Donphan.

Playing memory berry restricts the usage of Expert Belt, which if anything, makes Donphan a potential threat in this format. Also, if a player sees the threat of memory berry I am sure they would play around it so donphan wouldn't be able to deal anymore than the 60 it is already capable of.

This is a skewed statement. If this were a true element, then why is Machamp so good? Flychamp does pretty much everything you mention above. Setting up Nidoqueen, Machamps, Flygon, Claydol, and so forth, and I've seen it do exceptional in this area, beating some solid SP lists.

Generally playing a stage 1 pokemon with stage 2 support will slow the deck down completely. This was made relevant back when stage 1 decks became popular during the ex era when decks like Banette ex and Medicham were popular. Playing rare candies, starting with your supporting pokemon's basic stage, etc... It doesn't usually work out to well.

Funny that JokerBoi mentioned Manectric being a less than exemplary tech when he's likely to become a star in a format where heavy snipe becomes relevant. (Garchomp C? Relicanth? Even the potential of Entei/Raikou coming out soon..)

It may sometimes protect you from Entei/Raikou. But again getting out an Dialga G isn't that hard, I am sure you would agree considering that you mentioned setting up a stage 2 in a deck with a stage 1 main attacker. If manetric does become popular dealing with it would be easy. Let us not forget about luxray can bring it active and easily do away with it.

 

[butlerforhire]

Yes, Donphan is bland. It is good at what it does, which is early-game rushing, but that isn't going to cut it against the majority of the field. Dialga G turns that precious Body off, anything water that is meta-- and there will be water at States-- OHKOs it even with the Body, it doesn't do more than 80 damage without 3 specific energy, it has a retreat that you will never pay, it will give up 2 prizes if you Belt it and can't get it to the bench somehow, and even then, it isn't safe with Garchomp C, Luxray GL, Reversal, Blower+, etc., it has a lot of bad match-ups*, it does nothing aside from slightly below-par damage (for this Belt-ridden format).

* Charizard, Shuppet, Dialga G/Garchomp C, Feraligatr, Gardevoir/Gallade, Jumpluff, Gyarados, Kingdra, Gengar (if it techs Mime, which isn't difficult-- it's as good or better than Spiritomb as a switch-out partner), Beedrill, Palkia G.

Oh yeah, I'm definitely running Donphan!

 

[Surskit]

Well, personally, I know for a FACT that Donphan beats Bronzong MD/Ampharos Prime/Ho-oh Legend. Just in case no one tested that matchup.
I agree that Donphan will not be fantastic, but it is still a solid competitor and not to be underestimated. Paired with Manectric/Bench Shield, the 10 spread is nullified, but my Donphan was solidly beaten by Konopacz's Flychamp. I was continually smashing for 80, but all he had to do was rotate Flygons, heal(Nidoqueen), rinse and repeat. He beat me with simple 2HKOs, and there was nothing smart or witty I could do with my ABSURDLY LARGE RETREAT COST.
And then of course there's the water weakness.
On topic, I am expecting plenty of Jumpluff and will be surely running speed Torkoal for states, with a Blastoise SW tech for Charizard.

Speaking of Charizard, could someone explain to me how it succeeds where Donphan fails? I'm not sure how it is ANY better.

 

[darkmaster8702000]

Donphan Is Goingto Be A Good Competitor And No Doubt Have Its Ups And Downs. It Depends On Where U Live And The Metagame That U Ormally See And Will Be Expecting Whether Or Ot He Is Going To Be God. Over The Past Few Days I Have Ben Reading The Threads And Listening At U Gus Talk About This Donphan Character. Yes It Wil Be Good In Certain Areas. Neraki Falkin U Know How Our Metagame Works Here In Ohio. Alot F Sp's And Flygon. Granted Towards The End Of The Year We Noticed More Gengar Pop Up. My Thoughts For States Are Just As Good As Yours And We Know That We Are Going To See Stupid Stuff As Usual Here In Ohio. My Guess O The Charizard Is Yes It Is Going To Be Good But Can It Survive The Power Spray Long Enough To Set Up. In My Opinion I Plan To See A Lot F Donphan Yes. But I Say We Will See Alot Of Charizard Typhlosion Prime With Ninetales At State. Also We Will See Dophan Wth Blissey More Than Likely To Deal With Flygon And Chomp. But Anoter Problem. What Happens When U Get Power Sprayed. Thats Y I Say That Kingdra Will Rise Again. O And Dialga Is Just Sick And It Will Still Be The Bdif At This Moment. It Cou Nters Everything. Power Spray And Say God Bye To All Ur Precious Poke Bodies.

 

[butlerforhire]

Well, personally, I know for a FACT that Donphan beats Bronzong MD/Ampharos Prime/Ho-oh Legend. Just in case no one tested that matchup.
I agree that Donphan will not be fantastic, but it is still a solid competitor and not to be underestimated. Paired with Manectric/Bench Shield, the 10 spread is nullified, but my Donphan was solidly beaten by Konopacz's Flychamp. I was continually smashing for 80, but all he had to do was rotate Flygons, heal(Nidoqueen), rinse and repeat. He beat me with simple 2HKOs, and there was nothing smart or witty I could do with my ABSURDLY LARGE RETREAT COST.
And then of course there's the water weakness.
On topic, I am expecting plenty of Jumpluff and will be surely running speed Torkoal for states, with a Blastoise SW tech for Charizard.

Speaking of Charizard, could someone explain to me how it succeeds where Donphan fails? I'm not sure how it is ANY better.

The water weakness and high retreat will restrict it too, although at least it isn't automatically getting OHKOed by Kingdra and Feraligatr like Donphan. It is better overall because it can get OHKOs as long as its Body is activated (maxing at 150 with Expert Belt). It can also run a small Typhlosion Prime line for Afterburner and the Kindle threat-- not hugely important, but at least it's there as a disruptive option. A benched Dialga G lv. X kills Charizard though.

 

[Amt]

Donphan Is Goingto Be A Good Competitor And No Doubt Have Its Ups And Downs. It Depends On Where U Live And The Metagame That U Ormally See And Will Be Expecting Whether Or Ot He Is Going To Be God. Over The Past Few Days I Have Ben Reading The Threads And Listening At U Gus Talk About This Donphan Character. Yes It Wil Be Good In Certain Areas. Neraki Falkin U Know How Our Metagame Works Here In Ohio. Alot F Sp's And Flygon. Granted Towards The End Of The Year We Noticed More Gengar Pop Up. My Thoughts For States Are Just As Good As Yours And We Know That We Are Going To See Stupid Stuff As Usual Here In Ohio. My Guess O The Charizard Is Yes It Is Going To Be Good But Can It Survive The Power Spray Long Enough To Set Up. In My Opinion I Plan To See A Lot F Donphan Yes. But I Say We Will See Alot Of Charizard Typhlosion Prime With Ninetales At State. Also We Will See Dophan Wth Blissey More Than Likely To Deal With Flygon And Chomp. But Anoter Problem. What Happens When U Get Power Sprayed. Thats Y I Say That Kingdra Will Rise Again. O And Dialga Is Just Sick And It Will Still Be The Bdif At This Moment. It Cou Nters Everything. Power Spray And Say God Bye To All Ur Precious Poke Bodies.

Maybe If You Stop Capitalizing Every Word People Will Start Paying Attention To Your Post.

 

[konopacz]

Maybe If You Stop Capitalizing Every Word People Will Start Paying Attention To Your Post.

True that.

On topic, my friend is legit and made a pretty solid donphan. I played it with my flychamp 2 or 3 times and really had no trouble. While 80 doesn't seem like such a low damage out put, I really had no trouble rotating between 3 flygons and healing with nidoqueen. I spirtomb really hurt his set up, even if it was for 1 or 2 turns. So if you don't donk, or put insane pressure on your opponent early game, you won't win the game. Also, it gets owned pretty badly by Kingdra, gyrados and palkia lock, all very prominent decks in our meta. Plus, Dialga chomp lists tech a quagsire or some other anti fire card which would work well against donphan.


Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Well, personally, I know for a FACT that Donphan beats Bronzong MD/Ampharos Prime/Ho-oh Legend. Just in case no one tested that matchup.
I agree that Donphan will not be fantastic, but it is still a solid competitor and not to be underestimated. Paired with Manectric/Bench Shield, the 10 spread is nullified, but my Donphan was solidly beaten by Konopacz's Flychamp. I was continually smashing for 80, but all he had to do was rotate Flygons, heal(Nidoqueen), rinse and repeat. He beat me with simple 2HKOs, and there was nothing smart or witty I could do with my ABSURDLY LARGE RETREAT COST.
And then of course there's the water weakness.
On topic, I am expecting plenty of Jumpluff and will be surely running speed Torkoal for states, with a Blastoise SW tech for Charizard.

Speaking of Charizard, could someone explain to me how it succeeds where Donphan fails? I'm not sure how it is ANY better.

Well, I really don't think it will be much more popular than it was during BRs and CC. However, Ninetails will certainly increase the use of Charizard. By how much? We can only wait and see.

 

[Lumpy]

Have anyone really thought about ferligatr? i think it will be a real contender if someone plays it right

 

[bullados]

Plox ruins it and virtually every deck that could make use of that power. If only it could go off faster than Plox could power lock, but it can't (at least, not against my version).

 

[JPN Gallade]

So far,I can imagine that these decks would see play. Let's see what may become popular.

Top Decks (decks that may still see lots of play and are very good).

Plox
Flygon Varients
Donphan Prime varients

Middle decks (decks that may still see play, but not as much the top decks, but are still very good)

Lady GaGa (Luxchomp)
DaChomp (Dialga/Garchomp)
Blazeray (or BLG)
Gengar varients
Machamp varients
Gyarados
Shuppet Donk
Speedril
Glistomb

Low decks (decks that may not see play compared to Middle and Top, and aren't the best. But, nevertheless, they can still see potential in this format for some can be good actually, as maybe by rare chance, they may become much higher tier wise)

Feraligatr Prime
Luxray PA
Palkia Lock
Charizard

 

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

Also IDK who said this, but trust me SPs are going to still godly...
Donphan is a problem, not gonna lie but you don't need Luxray GL LV.X to win...
What happened to D-Chomp.
I personally like L-Chomp w/ DCE...it is so fast...
Lastly on Jumpluff....
I use DGX to shut down a nice size portion of deck(cherrims and shaymin lv.x) and then I use High Jump Kick+Crobat G FTW...(no I'm not kidding I think Infernape 4 makes a wonderful tech just for Jumpluff). Also I think Blissey may see some play as an anti Flygon counter.

 

[darkmaster8702000]

i still do believe that nothing is going to change except for the showing of donphan which gives sp's a problem, plox is not going to be as great as before but still cause chaos. my take is that something sp will win states. for example plox is going to be fast but how fast can they get all the cards they need before the sp deck does.

 

[bullados]

My "tiers"...

Tier 1:
Plox/GG/Power Lock
Something SP (probably Garchomp-centered)
Flygon-as-a-secondary-hitter

Tier 2:
Flygon-as-a-primary-hitter
Gengar variants
Shuppet/Uxie/HoPe
Feraligatr-as-setup
Charizard/Ninetales/Typhlosion (either)
Beedrill/Luxray
Gyarados (less Power reliant)

Tier Three:
Everything else (Phan included)

How fast can Plox go? I've got pretty consistent turn 1 power lock with a 50/50 shot at turn 2 or turn 3 Psychic Lock, and a Gallade and second Gardy not far behind. Just working out the finer details (such as mirrors).

 

[Nobodys]

Originally Posted by Naki Feralkin View Post
Funny that JokerBoi mentioned Manectric being a less than exemplary tech when he's likely to become a star in a format where heavy snipe becomes relevant.

Manectric fails to luxchomp or dialgachomp.

DialgaChomp just plain shuts off his body.

Luxchomp usually runs 1-1 dialga so it still shuts off his body. Even if you can't get a Dialga G Lvl X out, it's as simple as:
Bright look a manectric with Luxray GL lvl. X. Retreat for free or poke turn. Crobat+Garchomp C Dragon Rush for 90 and the OHKO.

Not to mention Manectric + Bench Shield is a very cumbersome tech. You need at least 3-4 cards to make it work, and even THEN it's inconsistent, since Manectric is a stage 2. Plus you have no way to search for bench shields aside from department store girl. You going to tech in a stage 2 line, a bunch of tools, and dsg? That sacrifices your consistency greatly...

 

[Jigsaw]

It's easy to tech manectric cuz it's a stage 1, and a simple 2-2,1-1 line can work great just my toughts...

 

[Bellawesome]

Im preparing for donphan. I'm gonna be playing a deck with a solid matchup vs it. With reversal around, those st1 beatdown cards are going to be a pain to play against. Noone will want their dol reversal'd and belt ko'd turn 2-3 by a donphan. Manny trick helps with some of the water problem, but gyarados and maybe kingdra and still do away with donphan. Plox is fragile, almost too much for donphan, and sp seems like it would have to overtech just for it.

That being said, time to test EVERYTHING! I've got some ideas, but states will definitely be a blind metagaming format over here.

Ninja: Agreed with you jigsaw, who's stopping the donphan player from making trick a bigger part of the deck? i'd play 2-2 and lightnings. Some decks get way too many power cards in play, and 2 powerwaves can devastate. Or reversal and hit for even longer!

 

[Nobodys]

It's easy to tech manectric cuz it's a stage 1, and a simple 2-2,1-1 line can work great just my toughts...

Oops your right why the heck did I get it confused with flaafy / mareep / ampharos??


In that case, it won't be that bad - esp. with the poke power attack it has not being totally useless. Still, the bench shield part of may prove kind of clunky. It's not like tech'ing promocroak to counter luxray where you're only adding 2 searchable cards - you still need at least 4. 1-1 manectric with 1 bench shield is way too thin to get it out... you'd need at least 2 bench shields or 1 bench shield and a DSG if your deck plays e.gains or expert belts... If someone can work into the overall synergy of a deck and combo it with something else, I think it would work better.

And CFOURCOLTSFAN is right, SPs will still be good. Putting all SP decks at tier II with shuppet donk is just terrible... shuppet donk is barely playable anymore, and SP decks will still be Tier I (at least Luxchomp and DialgaChomp). Everyone underestimated SPs before cities. They said 'Spiritomb kills it', which was true enough at first. Then SP players got smart and used Dialga at least as a tech to get rid of Spiritomb and all the other annoying bodies that were out there (flygon, mewtwo, nidoqueen, even exploud sv). Everyone saw the results. SPs dominated cities when everyone thought they would die out.

Yes, plox should be pretty nasty with DCE, especially if you can get a Mespirt out t1. But people don't realize that DCE helps a lot of SP decks too. You can tank Dialga quicker now with DCE because you don't have to worry about getting an e.gain on him. Both LuxChomp and DialgaChomp will abuse DCE HARD because it's so fast. 4 DCEs = 4 turns of 80 sniping with a 2-2 garchomp c line. Combine that with crobat and you can knock out anything you want from the bench. DCE helps Uxie against plox. Slap a DCE on uxie, have a lucario on the bench, zen blade gardevoir for 120 and crobat to make up the rest if the level x or an expert belt is on it.

And true, Gallade helps against SPs tremoundously, but it's a one trick pony. To nail Garchomp or Dialga it has to flip prizes, and there's a limit to that.

 

[bullados]

SPs rely on their Powers. Gardy can Power lock every turn from turn 1 until the end of the game. My (incredibly basic) list has gotten T1-5 Power lock in 4 out of the 5 games it's played, and the one time it didn't was because I needed to retreat a Mesprit that I started with. As I refine it, I'll get that Power lock faster and longer and more consistently, and there's really nothing that SP can do about it that quickly in the game. Most SPs can't T1 get 3 SPs in play and a Spray in hand. Maybe Trainer Turn 1 if they see a Ralts. But I can still Spirit T1 and lock the rest of the game.

Against SPs, if I go second, I should win most of the games. If I go first, it's a 50/50 crapshoot dependent completely on whether or not they can Spray my first Spirit. If they can't, I will usually win.

 

[chriscobi634]

I'm very curious as to how you can get T1 Lock so consistently. I know Mesprit is involve, but all it takes for Sp decks to have a 3 Sp in play is a call energy. I really don't want for Plox to comeback. It's a very good format right now, Plox would just ruin it.

I really just don't see how it could be a Tier 1 deck. It would have a bad match-up vs. Shuppet, even though that's another deck that I dislike, people still will play it. Dialga has a resistance to it, Gengar still hits it's weakness, Spiritomb won't allow for it to set up as fast as you say it will, there are more Psyhic Pokemon that can OHKO it. While Sp decks do need their Powers they can still fit back without them.

Let's analyze what decks gave it a hard time back when it was the dominant deck in the format:

Magmortar - Had a healing body, allowing it to take a couple hits from Gardy. Hit it back hard with a scramble, OHKO with 2 Scrambles. Had a snipe attack just in case it needed it. Could disrupt their Powers with the Lv. X burn ability, if it had the chance to do so.

Empoleon - Hit it back hard and fast. It would set up 2HKOs so the G/G player had to be careful to simply try to power lock the whole game. Again had a disruptive Power from the Lv. X, again in case it could use it.

Torterra - Hit it back hard, could heal itself. Had a Bright Look power in the Lv. X if it was behind.

So the similarities these three decks had was that it could hit it back just as hard and if they had the ability to, it could disrupt Gardy back. Sp can do all that, and more and better then those decks could.

Don't get me wrong, G/G can make a comeback as I'm planning my Gallade deck. But with all the tools SPs have, I just don't see it being a Tier 1 deck. Not only SPs but this format in itself.

In the previous format there weren't as many good recovery cards as Cynthia's or Copycat. Players had to resort to Chatot and give them a free prize. Not the case anymore. Back then it had Scramble, it doesn't anymore. Yes the other decks that put up a fight against it had Scramble as well but in this format it actually hurts G/G to not have Scramble. Especially when some SP decks can abuse DCE just as well as G/G can.

 

[Lumpy]

i have made a ferligatr deck that rocks. you cna have set up in about 2-3 turns and i am sorryu, but no decks can take it after that set up. No decks at all