Consequences of Poor Judging

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by ChaosJim, Dec 23, 2007.

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  1. ChaosJim

    ChaosJim Member

    All particulars aside for now, I understand that there have been problems over the last few years at Nationals in regards to judges making blatantly incorrect rulings and decisions. Before leaping into stories, I just want to voice my concern: when judges year after year make errors at important events, costing players games, does anything happen? Really, I'm just interested in making sure those same judges aren't able to make similar mistakes. Primarily, I'm interested in a factual response as to what will happen, or what channels need to be taken to formally complain about a judge, secondarily, I'm interested to see who else feels the same way.

    Also, I do want people who don't know me to know that I greatly appreciate all of my local judges and the majority of judges I've dealt with. I've had judges really help me out in the past, and I wouldn't want to seem ungrateful for that.
  2. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    Factually I'll give you the best advice I can give anyone. Email POP at [email protected] and have them investigate. They will either give commendation in the event of good comments sent, or find out the situation and deal with it in their own way. Don't use this thread as a witch hunt, please. You will not be doing anyone a favor.
  3. ChaosJim

    ChaosJim Member

    I was avoiding details in hopes to avoid a witch hunt and learn procedure, thank you for your recommendation.
  4. And the players who fell "victum" to bad rulings and knew the call was wrong, didn't appeal to the head judge because why?

    If they didn't appeal, it is their own falt. Dee Dee Dee
  5. Epyon0015

    Epyon0015 New Member

    I seen my share of bad Judging. The Judge Structure need to fixed and inforced. Some CCs this season dont have a Judge Structure (Judges and Head Judge) and half of the Judges dont even know the Ruling and Penalty but the fault lies on Tournament Organizers for not making sure the Judges are not prepered. This is just my thoughts
  6. DreamChaser AJ

    DreamChaser AJ New Member

    Also make sure you've spoken with the judge about how you feel. Judging can be difficult, especially if the judge walks into a situation and has no way of knowing which player is more truthful if one is trying to "sweeten" their end of the deal.

    Judges make mistakes also, we are human too, but we do try our best to assess the situations to the best of our ability.

    Also, the penalty guidelines are left to judge's discretion; different situations could warrant an increase or decrease in the level of penalty to be issued.
  7. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    "I" am a consequence of poor judgment.

    With that said, I agree with the above users.
  8. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Judges do make errors.

    Anything above a warning requires the consent of the HJ.

    Players have the right (indeed obligation) to call the HJ if they are unclear or unhappy with a whole ruling or aspect of a ruling.

    Don't forget to be respectful in your dealings with others.
  9. Krucifier

    Krucifier New Member

    Lol. I have had first hand bad experience with bad judging.

    It sucks badly. And it can cost people games, trophies or even trips to Worlds.

    Just shake it off and get on with whatever you are doing. If it was an intentional 'mistake' on the judges part, report it to POP. If it was a genuine mistake...Then accept the Judges apology. They have to run around in a hot stinky room all day telling people to lay down their prize cards or to...To...Who know's what else...And they don't get paid for it. Show some respect. :p
  10. Diaz

    Diaz New Member

    What if it's the head judge at an event like nats or worlds who makes an incorrect ruling, or makes various incorrect rulings over the course of several years? (as said above, no specific person(s) in mind, just hypothetical) I hope POP keeps track of all questionable rulings from all judges, from match slip runners to head judges. At large and important events, incorrect rulings can cost people thousands of dollars, and judges who repeatedly cost people that kind of money should be looked into.
    (I would just like to repeat the fact that this is not a witch hunt, and I am attacking no individual judge or judges.)
  11. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    From an insider at Worlds judging, please be assured that just being selected as a judge at a high level event is just the first step.

    PUI has extensive meetings, both before, during, and after the events, to ensure that we know what is expected of us, and to give us "constructive criticism" or goals, or other items to focus on, areas of concern for the events.

    I know firsthand that PUI has no trouble in addressing issues or questions with judges at their events.

    The essential problem we face is that what many people perceive as black and white is very often a myriad of shades of grey!

    As for local events, PTOs are for the vast majority (only because I don't know everyone) very good about keeping and giving feedback to judges at their events.

    PUI has stressed on multiple levels that the number one priority for a PTO is the intergrity of the event.

    Most all of us take this to heart.

    If PUI gets word of something questionable, they will contact the PTO and conduct their investigation. They take their complaints quite seriously. They want to maintain a game that is good and fair for all competitors.

    So, yes, there are consequences. There are enough carrots out there that PTOs do not want events taken away from them, and they will strive to make sure that the OP program is set out in exactly the way PUI would want it.

    Hope that answers your question from an insider's perspective...without divulging any classified information.

    You may not always see it from the outside, but trust me, PUI is paddling hard at all times.

  12. GinoLombardi21

    GinoLombardi21 New Member

    Pokemon Judges are like any Referees of any sport. Even in professional sports PROFESSIONAL REFEREEs make mistakes. Even though its unintentional it still happens. Look at baseball for example. The umpire calls a player out because he saw the 1st basemen tagged the runner before he got to first. When the broadcast shows a review the runner was clearly safe. The cool thing about pokemon penalities or plays is that they can be reversed or challenged. Kind of like football when you challenge a play that was a wrong call.

    There will be all types of judges with all different expectations its like that everywhere. If your a disciplined player I think yall be fine. Just know the expectations of POP and their rules. I've been playing this game for 3 years and i've learned so much about the rules, expectations, and how judging can affect the game.

    Happy holidays.:thumb:
  13. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    I will add this too.....many times, what a player or group of players perceive as a bad call is really a good call. That doesnt stop said player or group from calling out said judge.

    Vince squared up everything else. PUI looks to keep good, solid judges at their events, especially their events @ Nats and Worlds.

  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    You do realize there is exactly one person that fits your description, hypothetically. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, mistakes do happen. They happen a lot less now than they did years ago.
    You'd be amazed at how often things were ruled totally wrong back in the day.
    That said, we all do strive to improve. No one likes finding out they botched a ruling.

    What if the ruling were from the head judge?
    If they're a good head judge, they will take an appeal of their own ruling.
    They will bring in some of their top staff and get feedback from them to make sure they are reading the situation correctly and that there is not some ruling they are not aware of.
    They still get the final decision, but that doesn't mean you can't question it when it's first made.
    Just do it with respect.
  15. I am Entei

    I am Entei New Member

    We need instant replay!! Cameras at every table on each player monitoring them!! Thought I'd suggest it before someone else did!
  16. Diaz

    Diaz New Member

    I really have no idea who you are talking about. If there is such a person, shouldn't they be looked into? And maybe something should be done about him or her.
    (I would just like to repeat the fact that this is not a witch hunt, and I am attacking no actual individual(s))
  17. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    All I'm saying is that there is only one person who has been HJ of US Nats and Worlds for the past few years.
    I am not aware of any series of incorrect rulings over several years that need to be dealt with.
    Has he made an error? Sure. Just like every other person has. Has it been reviewed to avoid it happening again? Sure it has. No one that is a top notch judge (which he is) is happy about making an error.
    But there is no need for "doing something about" them. And since your description of a person that has HJ'd Nats and Worlds only fits one person, I don't see how you are not attacking that person.
    If you don't mean to, then don't be so specific in your parameters.
  18. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    Hmmm, hate to say I told ya so, but .... personally I would have quit when I was ahead. You had your answer Professor Magma, but had to press the point (without being specific of course). Just an observation anyway. Hey, it's good to ask questions to find out the answers, but once the answers are given, sometimes it's best to drop things. Do you think this line of questioning is helping anything? Does this instill confidence in judges? Does it make players want to branch out, and reach out to their friends to get them to come along to premier events? Does this make you look better in others eyes? How about the specific judge you seem to be targeting? Were my words right, or not? Witch hunt or not, this helps NO ONE. Do everyone a favor. Follow my advice in post 2 if you have a problem with a particular judge or his/her rulings after the fact. The time to apeal a judge's decision is clearly spelt out. Do so at the time of the bad call. Go to the head judge if necessary. If the call is being made by the head judge, appeal to that person respectfully. Once the head judge has made his/her final decision - abide by that. Then if you still feel the decision was wrong, email that go-pokemon address I mentioned in post 2 with the particulars. Don't assume that people don't learn by their mistakes.

    Now, .... did you learn anything?
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2007
  19. Diaz

    Diaz New Member

    I thought that each age group had its own head judge, and theres been nationals and worlds going on since at least 2004. Haven't at least some of the judges changed since then?
    Between three age groups and judge changes over the past few years I think theres plenty of judges who fit the description.
    I wasn't the one who said there was only one person who fit the description.
    I really didn't mean to specifically target one person.

    Thanks for the input. I really don't mean to sound like I’m interrogating anyone. I don't have any problems with any of the judges that I’m involved with. I'm sorry that this thread has gone so off course. Just trying to have a nice friendly conversation. Aren’t these types of threads really what pokegym’s all about.:thumb:
  20. homeofmew

    homeofmew Active Member

    I suggest at the event if there is a clear problem to always call over the head judge. Other judges may be inexperienced. I highly doubt a judge made the wrong ruling or a something that you may think to be blatanly obvious on purposely. Remember you also can ask for a compendium ruling, and if it isn't in there the HJ gets to decide. But anything "Blatantly obvious " should be in the compendium
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