Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Counterfeit cards seized upon arrival

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Well Otaku, my post-that-takes-up-less-than-a-page intellect understood some of your post. However the idea I got from one part of what you were saying is that petty crime is acceptable only when you know you cant be caught, but i am probably misunderstanding that bit. As for my example of buying a CD that is something I find comparable to buying, not making fakes, but I assume you dissaprove of both. of course, some of the things I said are wrong and some you say are right, such as about the economy.
Anyway then, here is a question. If me and a group of friends decide we are sick of decks being expensive and decide from now on not to go to tournaments and just to print loads of proxys to play with from now on, what is your opinion on that? it is as legal as anyone here can claim to be but surerly more damaging to pokemon than, as you find so morally reprehensible, buying occasional fakes on purpose, so I think being illegal and immoral are being confused a lot in this thread.
and as to why I cant do quotes, I dunno how.
i'll be back here soon prepared with more reading time.
 
Counterfeit - Adjective: Made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

Proxy cards are not, by definition, counterfeit. I have played games with proxies for over a decade and I've never used or seen used anything that could be mistaken for the real thing. Nor have I seen anyone try to sell or enter a tournament with proxies. Many people (myself included) use them for testing purpose, intending to buy the real thing if they prove useful. There's nothing immoral about this. You're not taking money or goods away from them. In fact, it may even improve business.

The example you give is similar. If you don't the product is worth the money there is no reason for you to continue to buy it. That is "damaging to pokemon" whether you play with proxies or not because they're losing the revenue. However, we as players are under no obligation to buy product. It is up to the company to make it worth our while. If they cannot, then they deserve to lose the business. That's how capitalism works. As long as you are not trying to make a profit from Pokemon's intellectual property, there's nothing immoral about it.

RM
 
I went into a department store in Senzhen and found a counter with fake packs, singles, and boxes. The only way I could tell the boxes were fake were that there was a Great Encounters box that had a "copyright 2005 - 2010" on it, that a real Great Encounters box would not have. The singles would fool anyone without a trained eye. There were subtle font and color issues, but most people apart from "us", if you will, would not be able to tell. This was not a street booth mind you, but a department store comparable to a Sears or Penny's over here. The brazeness of it shocked me. There is no sense over there that they are doing anything wrong. They are serving their domestic market which is large enough that it is worth for them to manufacture the product for themselves. The cards are not made to deceive those that would buy real cards, but to serve the domestic Chinese market for Pokemon cards, where they have no more of a problem with the fact that the cards are not made by Pokemon than they do that their computers run pirated copies of Windows. It is largely opportunistic Americans that are responsible for this product getting onto the shelves of US retailers. There are laws in China that require the respecting of intellectual property, but they are simply not enforced, so are ignored by the public.
 
Firstly I would like to say that the person in my example does not reflect my opinion of people who use proxys. most people do indeed intend to buy the actual cards as well. However, I am really suprised you think that it would OK to use proxys only. Legal, certainly but morally how is it better than stealing- basically consuming their product without paying them.
 
I would not support these Fake Pokemon cards because they waste money on yourself (Like buying fake Beyblades and Bakugan) and the company that ACTUALLY does it won't get the money needed to balance the game.

Would you want a game where TCPi has no money and its perfectly unbalanced or a game that TCPi has a good amount of money and is balanced in every aspect?
 
What you're missing here is intent - that is, what do the makers tend to do with the images?

The counterfeiter wants to make money off of another's brand or idea; or in other words, the counterfeiter wants to steal intellectual property for profit. This is stealing.

The proxy player's intent is to use the card to further his or her knowledge about the game - not necessarily to "consume" the product, since you're not enjoying an actual card when you do. This isn't stealing.
 
What you're missing here is intent - that is, what do the makers tend to do with the images?

The counterfeiter wants to make money off of another's brand or idea; or in other words, the counterfeiter wants to steal intellectual property for profit. This is stealing.

The proxy player's intent is to use the card to further his or her knowledge about the game - not necessarily to "consume" the product, since you're not enjoying an actual card when you do. This isn't stealing.
Nailed it.
"For Profit" stealing for MONEY is exactly the issue.
"Proxies" are just that for personal play testing, with intent of investing in the product to those cards shows a committement to the product.

The pokemon game has been developed by nintendo and investments in research, development, organized play, trips, prizes, etc and not cheap with no guarrentee of success, but done so that the brand/product is attractive to consumers.

China and others in the world, really don't see intellectual property as a natural point of view. Counterfeits is just a form of ingenuity in some of the world's eyes (laws reflect this). This has been a problem for decades.
 
Firstly I would like to say that the person in my example does not reflect my opinion of people who use proxys. most people do indeed intend to buy the actual cards as well. However, I am really suprised you think that it would OK to use proxys only. Legal, certainly but morally how is it better than stealing- basically consuming their product without paying them.

In the example given it seemed like the hypothetical players first decided it was not worth their money to buy the cards, then decided to create their own game pieces. They are not stealing because the company is not losing any income because the said players have decided to stop paying with or without proxies. If the players decided to stop paying because they realized they could have just as much fun printing their own cards, that's only slightly different.

I realize there is a difference between morality and legality, but on this issue I think that difference is very small. When you buy Pokemon cards you are not paying for the right to use the intellectual property. That is free. You are paying for official product. Is it immoral to play with cards you didn't pay for (gifts, hand-me-downs, loans)? Is it immoral to play with cards you bought on a secondary market (such as e-bay)? It's far more destructive to Pokemon's revenue to buy official cards from a vendor that keeps all the profits than to play with proxies.

I notice someone compared counterfeit cards to pirated music. It is widely recognized that pirating mp3s or copying cds is immoral, but I doubt anyone believes that singing a song with your friends (karaoke, for example) is wrong. That's the equivalent of playing with proxy cards in your example.

RM
 
If i were TPCi I would not make a big noise about it either. The problem with counterfeits is that you and everyone else knows you only ever stop a small percentage. So why advertise that?
To put the word out that you are active in stopping it? :confused:
 
When there's a big victory (i.e. many millions), they do make a big deal about it. Here's a press release from 2008:

POKÉMON AND NINTENDO TEAM UP TO COMBAT TRADING CARD PIRACY

More than 47 million counterfeit products seized worldwide in past 16 months

BELLEVUE, Wash.—April 7, 2008 – Pokémon USA, Inc., a worldwide leader in trading card games, today announced the results of recent anti-piracy actions taken in cooperation with Nintendo of America Inc. to combat the production and distribution of counterfeit Pokémon® Trading Card Game products.

On March 26, law enforcement officials in New York raided seven stores known to be selling fraudulent Pokémon Trading Card Game merchandise. Thousands of products were seized and several arrests were made. In early April, one action at a production facility in China secured nearly 1.2 million counterfeit cards and investigations continue.

During the past 16 months, more than 47 million counterfeit products have been seized at production facilities in Thailand, Singapore, Poland, Italy, the Czech Republic, Australia, and China. One seizure in China in 2007 netted more than 26 million illegally produced cards. Nintendo and Pokémon will continue to target the retailers and manufacturers trafficking in counterfeit Pokémon product.

“Pokémon wants to send a message to importers and producers that we will not stand for the distribution of fraudulent Pokémon product,” says Pokémon spokesperson, J.C. Smith. “Pokémon is committed to ensuring our fans receive the quality product they've come to expect.”
 
If I were to build an inferior copy of an automotive product, produced by copying the ideas from the rest of the auto makers, without marketing, R&D (crash testing etc), with inferior materials, not only for my own use, but specifically to sell them cheaply by the roadside to passers by (without even having authorized dealerships), and without advertisement, but with full knowledge that they were just gag cars .... do you think I'd be in my rights to do so, or for that matter any less liable? Granted there's the whole 'what if someone were to get hurt by one of my products (by fire, electrocution, mechanical failure, accident due to fraudulent behavior on my part)' thing, but hey .... it's just a gag, right? I don't mean to hurt the other auto maker's profits, really. I just wanna make a little something capitalizing on other people's ideas.

Yeah, sometimes really going overboard with an illustration gets a point across. Wrong is wrong. People today aren't just interested in having a 'me first' attitude, but in reality we see a lot more 'me ONLY' attitude too. It's too bad, but it IS a sign of the days we are living in.
 
I cannot see the similarity between your examples and mine. when you buy something off ebay pokemon have got their money for that product, same with other second hand things.
 
While I actually read your whole post, I felt I might as well just quote the summary.

1) Essentially World Champion decks are legal proxies. This is just one of their functions, but it is often a big one.

2) The owner of an IP can allow someone to use it if they see fit. For example, giving those in charge of an official Pokemon League a choice of whether or not to allow proxies (or foreign cards) in League play. Of course feel free to tell me if that exact example has changed since I last checked (which has been several years).

3) There are many "fair use" laws as well. Simply put, I can make as many fake Pokemon cards as I want, so long as I don't distribute them. The laws are a bit more intricate than that, but for the purpose of this discussion, that simplifies it pretty well.
hate to say it but I think you have that just about completely wrong.

World Championship decks are not proxies at all. They are fully protected and copyright materials that POP have said we cannot use in tournaments. They have exactly the same copyright status as Claydol GE does .

TPCi are required to be vigilant in the protection of their trade marks or they can lose the rights. If they officially allow league proxies then the door is opened to proxies for any purpose.

It is highly unlikely that a player produced proxy would meet the "fair use" exception for copyright.

espeon200 had it right: Player produced proxies are fakes.
 
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Don't confuse "tolerating/ignoring something" with "giving a choice about whether or not to allow proxies".

Companies have a choice in how vigilant they are in protecting their copyright. They have to be careful that if they knowingly allow certain uses of their IP, it may prevent them from enforcing their rights in other cases where they don't want to allow their IP to be used.

For example, Disney is famous for vigorously defending their IP, to the point of going after local Day Care centers that have an image of Mickey Mouse painted on their sign.

Pokemon takes a somewhat middle ground.
Theoretically, they could issue "cease and desist" orders to every single website that posts images of their cards and/or Pokemon sprites. They could crack down on the use of any graphical home-made proxie.
They could confiscate (with the assistance of local police) the play-mats and shirts that some people bring to large events to sell that use Pokemon IP in their creation.

They don't do any of that (they do either stop of evict those selling items, but don't go as far as confiscating their items). They tolerate sites like our putting up card images. They tolerate home made playmats and shirts as long as they are not being sold for profit. They know those kinds of things promote the game and build community.
But they have to be careful not to ignore or tolerate too much.
They can't tolerate items being sold with their IP on it. That would bust wide open any case their tried to bring against counterfeiters and they would lose their copyright.

It's best not to push testing where their limit is on what they will or can tolerate, because once you force them to bring the lawyers in, the lawyers push for the Disney model and want to use the full force of the law to protect the IP. That's their job. No lawyer has ever been fired for being to aggressive in protecting their clients rights.
They would be fired for saying "Yeah, go ahead and let them use your IP without permission. what the worst that can happen?"

(Did you know that aspirin used to be a Trademarked brand?)
 
World Championship decks are not proxies at all. They are fully protected and copyright materials that POP have said we cannot use in tournaments. They have exactly the same copyright status as Claydol GE does .

The word "proxy" (in TCG terms) is used to describe any item that acts as a placeholder for something it is not. For instance, I'm currently using the Dark Explorers Klinklang as a placeholder for the Black & White Klinklang in a deck I'm testing. There is nothing fake about the card itself, but it still a proxy.

That said, World Championship cards are not proxies by default, but certainly could be used as such.

RM
 
This very quickly gets into hair-splitting. I've certainly seen proxies that would not meet your definition. Which is the problem, its hard to officially tolerate something without it getting out of hand as the tolerance is very quickly reinterpreted as permission.

deashira, imagine what TPCi's lawyers will say if you ask can you make a photocopy of this card to enable using a real card as a proxy easier?
 
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For the record, I am not a lawyer, nor do I have detailed knowledge of laws on Intellectual Properties and such (e.g. copyright, trademark, etc.). Not surprisingly being online enough and a member (at least casually) of several "fandoms", I also know that such laws are fiercely debated.

PokePop:
I am familiar with Disney, and avoided bringing them up because quite frankly, their overzealous actions in this area have earned them quite a bad name in many circles. After all, Disney has gotten at least a few laws on "Intellectual Properties" expanded, to avoid their earlier works becoming public domain.

This would extend this side discussion to yet another topic. The discussion was first about the seizing of counterfeit cards. Now it seems to be about proxies and their legality (at all, not just for OP), and now we are getting into something I briefly alluded to earlier, whether some "laws" are actually just, in essence whether they are true laws or not.

For the record, if someone told me that a company was tolerating proxy cards, I would indeed define that as "ignoring them or giving a choice to the local organizers and judges about whether or not to allow proxies." Not trying to be flippant, just pointing out as such I really don't grasp your point.

This likely is due to different understandings of what "tolerance" is. To keep it short, I tend to go with the definition "the act or capacity of enduring; endurance". Being "neutral" or even "encouraging" towards an idea is not tolerance as I understand it, though it certainly is used that way by many modern groups.

PokePop is right in stating that companies must be selective in how they enforce copyright laws; it takes time and money to enforce such claims, so there often simply isn't enough resources to stop every violation. There is also, as I stated earlier, much disagreement over those laws and how they are enforced. Disney caught a lot of flak over the above daycare incident, and long story short; even if the law is on the company's side, public perception isn't. This isn't some core conviction clearly expressed by long held moral beliefs (e.g. religions), so public opinion matters to it greatly.

The fact that companies have to worry that allowing one person to skirt the law sets precedence for all too is unfortunate, and a failing of the American legal system. A bad court decision shouldn't change laws, and one act of tolerance shouldn't negate a person's rights. Disney allowing a daycare (even a for profit one) to have a mural depicting some of their trademarked characters shouldn't preclude Disney from preventing someone from setting up a business built expressly by violating their intellectual property rights.

nopoke: I know you were addressing deashira, but I've got to ask is this a good, competent lawyer who understands exactly how the American legal system works, or how it is far too often practiced? Seriously, we need legal reform here so that companies aren't forced to be cutthroat or ignorant of people using intellectual properties for private, not for profit use, especially as a part of using that hobby. With the TCG industry being built on "artificial" rarity that would be illegal for other products. In a system where unfortunately so many rulings depend on precedence, if I were a lawyer, I would not want to wish a sympathetic judge or jury who might ruin my current business model. Unlikely, but so have been many other rulings. >.>

Also, you haven't refuted my point that one of the uses of the World Championship decks is as a proxy to enjoy the TCG in a non-tournament setting. While they are clearly not legal for tournament play, and may not even be legal for League play (last I knew that was up to whomever was in charge of the League), they had better be legal for home play or else we have a major situation. Not one without precedent (I am using that word and variations of it far too much this post), but I am still pretty annoyed that I technically don't own any movies, games, etc. that I've paid for a hard copy of, but rather the disc, cartridge, etc. is merely a "license to use" said product.

tl;dr: So yes Pokemon (and indeed, many companies) don't prosecute every violation, for their own sake; its too expensive and would drive many customers away. IP laws are really messed up, and far too many in the legal system believe that legal precedence trumps actual law.
 
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the World championship decks are not proxies. They are legal product produced by or on behalf of the trademark and copyright owners. They are not proxies because they are not representing themselves as anything other than what they are.

This is not the best place for an open discussion - far too much risk of attracting unwanted attention. PokePop did not use your selective qualifier and neither would I.
 
The distinction I'm trying to convey is that there is a very big difference between "ignoring/tolerating" and "allowing".

Ignoring/tolerating is the absence of action. They are doing nothing. At any point in time they could "realize" that their IP is being used and move to stop it. ("I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here," said Captain Renault)
Allowing is a positive action. They would be making a positive statement that they are giving permission for something to be done. Once permission is legally given, it's exceeding hard to take it back.

There's not much point in arguing in this particular topic about what copyright and trademark law should be. That would be a major topic in and of itself and would swamp the things we're discussing here. I'd prefer to keep it to what passes for law currently.
And, in fact, court decisions do set precedence on the interpretation of our laws, so court decisions very much affect what IP law actually is and how it is defended. Companies can't afford to ignore what courts had ruled.
 
So you're saying that this would have been a great time to contact me via PM to actually answer my questions in a straight forward manner I could grasp? :wink: Well, if one wanted to continue the discussion. I might be willing to, but will "drop it here" for the reasons stated. Especially because I still can't follow what NoPoke is saying; people tend not to believe me when I explain that one of the reasons I have larger posts is I am giving the information I believe is needed to understand what I am saying. :lol:

Before I do go, I do wish to apologize for offending dark wobbuffet. I did not believe I ever implied he wasn't intelligent (unintelligent posts call for Reporting as SPAM, not a response), but that seems to be how he took it and as such I am sorry; I didn't remove enough of the "snark" from my what I had originally planned on posting. Though I will point out that his understanding of what I was saying, "...you were saying is that petty crime is acceptable only when you know you cant be caught..." was indeed not what I was trying to say. :rolleyes:
 
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