D/P Cloning Glitch!
- Thread starter LegacyEeveeVGC
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That sounds like a complete headache to battle with. Six Exp Shares is enough spam for me. Six Exp Alls is just... pain.
It's not cheating, it's an in-game glitch. Cheating would mean using stuff like AR (which I am against).
Also, if you ever frequent the Nsider forums, especially the Pokemon section, you'd have seen that it's been going downhill for a while now, and this latest thing is just another part of it. Heck, they wouldn't even let people discuss D/P Pokemon there before the actual game was released. Also, they don't even allow people to share FCs, which freaking Nintendo forces us to use. >.>
Look up "cheating" in the dictionary. Guess what it says? "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game." Glitches are not meant to be in game, and are actively removed by developers for a reason. Nintendo and Gamefreak set the rules such that it's not allowed. These aren't parts of the game as it was designed to be played.
I think Mr. K put it best: "I don't subscribe to the idea that there is some "higher law" created by Nintendo, the breaking of which exposes a lack of morals and ethics. The ethical problem is not with regards to breaking The Law of Nintendo, but with behaving in a way that is unfair to another player." In other words, this is paraphrasing one of Raph Koster's game design laws, that cheating is the violation of player assumptions about the game. Specifically, the assumption that the game shall be played as intended, without cheating. There is after all fundamentally no difference between getting, say, 99 Rare Candies through Action Replay or through meticulously duping them. Either method results in unfair advantages over those who play the game normally.
If you want to cheat by duping all the stuff you like, then that's fine. Just have the backbone to admit two things. First, you're playing Metagoros' Special Brand of Pokemon That Isn't Quite Pokemon. This is, as I've already said, fine. It's your prerogative to do so. Just have the guts to admit the second thing, which is that it's cheating.
Well, let's see...here's Dictionary.com's definition of cheating:
Dictionary.com said:
Now certainly, I suppose Nintendo has the right to ban talk of the cloning glitch on their forums, hence their rules and that talk of it would violate their rules. And if that is what you implied, I will stop there.
However, if you mean to apply this in a broader sense to include that the cloning glitch period is "cheating", I feel you are wrong. There is no "rule" per say stating that using this glitch is indeed cheating or even violating a rule. I don't recall Nintendo Co. or Gamefreak stating that it is a violation of the rules of the Pokemon game to use the cloning glitch.
More specifically, let's see what dictionary.com has to say about a glitch:
Dictionary.com said:
So if you ask me, by looking at what the definition of a glitch is, I do not see anything suggesting it is cheating at all. Thus, the cloning glitch is a perfectly acceptable thing as it meets the definition of a glitch and not cheating.
Well, consider this: you can legally have 99 Rare Candies in the game, either by buying them at the Battle Park or by using the Pick-Up ability. So instead of wasting days on end to gather then in this fashion, can it be called cheating to get these quickly by cloning/duping said rare candies via an in-game glitch. Either way you would end up with the same result of 99 Rare Candies. Heck, if you really follow this idea, you could even argue IV/EV training is essentially cheating, as I'm pretty sure most of the people who play Pokemon do not know about this. Thus, the majority's assumptions of the game do not include knowledge of IV/EV training and would make it cheating in their eyes and according to Mr. Koster's definition, it is a "violation of player assumptions about the game."
Furthermore, let's say that players assume that the other person will cheat and use the cloning glitch; is it now a "violation of player assumptions about the game" if they assume people will cheat? I'm more inclined to believe that players will usually assume the other will cheat instead of playing fairly.
In addition, let's go another way: If the method of cloning was given to all D/P players so as they have the means to execute it, can you call it "cheating" then? Because if everyone had/knew the means to do this glitch, the player asumption of the game would be changed to that they expect the other player to do it also. In addition, it would as correspond with Mr. Koster's theory, since now that the otherwise "cheating" clone glitch is now known to all, it is no longer violating the idea that "the game shall be played as intended, without cheating." as the method of "cheating" is now a part of the way the game is played.
If you have some sort of copy of Mr. Koster's game design theory handy also, I'd be willing to read through it, it does sound interesting.
Ok..."My Special Brand of Pokemon That Isn't Quite Pokemon"? I personally spend hours breeding and EV training my Pokemon to ensure that they are fit for battling with. And you're going to say that just because I decide to feed them Rare Candies clonned and transfered from Emerald to speed up the leveling process makes them not "Quite Pokemon"? That is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard...heck, I really don't even need to do this, as the wi-fi battle rules allow you to set the default to lv 50 or 100 when battling anyways, I do it more so for the sake of having them if anything.
In addition, for the last time, I fail to see how the heck it is cheating, as the end results will be the same regardless. Someone who uses the cloning glitch in Emerald for Rare Candies that they transfer to level a Pokemon to Lv100 or something will have the same end stats as an identical one (same IVs/EVs) raised through constant E4 battling.
To recap, you're saying:
1. It's not cheating, because it's only cheating a little bit.
2. It's not cheating, because I don't like the rules.
3. It's not cheating, because everyone else is doing it.
4. It's not cheating, because I can get away with it.
And the key factor:
5. It's not cheating, because I don't want to be called a cheater.
Put simply? Yes, it can. You're gaining a very real and very pronounced temporal advantage over those who do it the hard way, because as you yourself posted, a glitch is a malfunction and a problem. A glitch is not part of the game as it is intended, nor is it accounted for within the game's own paradigm. Making the game malfunction for your own gain is cheating.
What difference is there between slowly duping your items through the OP's glitch, and instantly getting 128 Rare Candies via MissingNo. in RBY? Or for that matter, exploiting that glitch to get a Thunderwaving Rhydon? Should either be allowed? If not, where does the line get drawn between "this glitch is acceptable" and "this glitch is not acceptable"?
Is it where you can go undetected? I'd think that any situation in a game where you have to hide what you're doing from the game authority (in this case, Nintendo) is automatically suspect. What I'm going to assume, then, is glitches are only "okay" so long as you don't get caught using them. Then it becomes a case of, "It's not cheating, because I can get away with it."
A glitch is a glitch. Exploiting it is cheating. There is no such thing as, "It's not cheating, because I'm only cheating a little bit."
Breeding for DVs and training up EVs isn't cheating for the simple reason that it's within the game's intended system to do so. Making greater use of the rules than your opponent is called strategy. Acting outside the rules is called cheating.
Any game where the default assumption is that your opponent is a rampant cheater is a game that isn't worth playing. You might as well be assuming that every person you encounter via wifi has sharked their team to level 100, to have perfect DVs and movesets.
It's easy to sound tough on a forum about it, but the real test is this: Would you, with complete seriousness, tell each and every person you battle over wifi, "Just so you know, I'm cheating because you're a cheater too"?
Every player with some extra money has access to an Action Replay, but it's still cheating. Every RB player had access to MissingNo., but abusing him was still cheating.
It's even more obvious when you get to games where the players themselves have to take up the rules. Any player can draw extra cards in the Pokémon TCG. Some can even do it without getting caught. This option is available to all players, but it's still cheating. And even if both players agreed to, say, draw five extra cards a turn, then they aren't really playing Pokémon anymore.
Here you go.
You'll find most of the laws not applicable to Pokémon, however the ones regarding bugs and cheating apply universally.
Yes. The game doesn't support infinite cloning, and doing so requires action outside of the game's set paradigm. Getting 99 Rare Candies the hard way is, of course, not breaking the rules, but what you're saying, essentially, is, "It's not cheating, because I can do it a harder way." (This is a variation of #1 on my initial list). You can't just skip the first eight innings of baseball because you don't feel like playing them. Well, you can, but then you're not really playing baseball anymore.
As I've said, I don't have any problem with you cheating as long as you've got the guts to say, "I am a cheater." If your opponent and you decide to cheat, then you can cheat all day long against him. What I have a serious qualm with is #3 on my initial list. You can't assume that every player is a cheater, because then you may as well not even make any attempt to follow the rules whatsoever.
Heck, in the GSC days, I managed to get my hands on an official Mew from a mall tour. You know what the first thing I did was? Dupe the thing in Silver with rare TMs attached. Was I cheating? You bet your rear end I was cheating. However, I'm not afraid to admit it when I do (even if it throws my claims that any team I'd use over wifi is completely legit into doubt). You are. This entire argument is simply about you trying to defend yourself from being labelled a cheater. Just suck it up and say, "I'm a cheater," and you'll find I don't have anything more to argue about.
1. It's not cheating, because it's only cheating a little bit.
2. It's not cheating, because I don't like the rules.
3. It's not cheating, because everyone else is doing it.
4. It's not cheating, because I can get away with it.
And the key factor:
5. It's not cheating, because I don't want to be called a cheater.
Put simply? Yes, it can. You're gaining a very real and very pronounced temporal advantage over those who do it the hard way, because as you yourself posted, a glitch is a malfunction and a problem. A glitch is not part of the game as it is intended, nor is it accounted for within the game's own paradigm. Making the game malfunction for your own gain is cheating.
What difference is there between slowly duping your items through the OP's glitch, and instantly getting 128 Rare Candies via MissingNo. in RBY? Or for that matter, exploiting that glitch to get a Thunderwaving Rhydon? Should either be allowed? If not, where does the line get drawn between "this glitch is acceptable" and "this glitch is not acceptable"?
Is it where you can go undetected? I'd think that any situation in a game where you have to hide what you're doing from the game authority (in this case, Nintendo) is automatically suspect. What I'm going to assume, then, is glitches are only "okay" so long as you don't get caught using them. Then it becomes a case of, "It's not cheating, because I can get away with it."
A glitch is a glitch. Exploiting it is cheating. There is no such thing as, "It's not cheating, because I'm only cheating a little bit."
Breeding for DVs and training up EVs isn't cheating for the simple reason that it's within the game's intended system to do so. Making greater use of the rules than your opponent is called strategy. Acting outside the rules is called cheating.
Any game where the default assumption is that your opponent is a rampant cheater is a game that isn't worth playing. You might as well be assuming that every person you encounter via wifi has sharked their team to level 100, to have perfect DVs and movesets.
It's easy to sound tough on a forum about it, but the real test is this: Would you, with complete seriousness, tell each and every person you battle over wifi, "Just so you know, I'm cheating because you're a cheater too"?
Every player with some extra money has access to an Action Replay, but it's still cheating. Every RB player had access to MissingNo., but abusing him was still cheating.
It's even more obvious when you get to games where the players themselves have to take up the rules. Any player can draw extra cards in the Pokémon TCG. Some can even do it without getting caught. This option is available to all players, but it's still cheating. And even if both players agreed to, say, draw five extra cards a turn, then they aren't really playing Pokémon anymore.
Here you go.
You'll find most of the laws not applicable to Pokémon, however the ones regarding bugs and cheating apply universally.
Yes. The game doesn't support infinite cloning, and doing so requires action outside of the game's set paradigm. Getting 99 Rare Candies the hard way is, of course, not breaking the rules, but what you're saying, essentially, is, "It's not cheating, because I can do it a harder way." (This is a variation of #1 on my initial list). You can't just skip the first eight innings of baseball because you don't feel like playing them. Well, you can, but then you're not really playing baseball anymore.
As I've said, I don't have any problem with you cheating as long as you've got the guts to say, "I am a cheater." If your opponent and you decide to cheat, then you can cheat all day long against him. What I have a serious qualm with is #3 on my initial list. You can't assume that every player is a cheater, because then you may as well not even make any attempt to follow the rules whatsoever.
Heck, in the GSC days, I managed to get my hands on an official Mew from a mall tour. You know what the first thing I did was? Dupe the thing in Silver with rare TMs attached. Was I cheating? You bet your rear end I was cheating. However, I'm not afraid to admit it when I do (even if it throws my claims that any team I'd use over wifi is completely legit into doubt). You are. This entire argument is simply about you trying to defend yourself from being labelled a cheater. Just suck it up and say, "I'm a cheater," and you'll find I don't have anything more to argue about.
Ok. Number 1, you're still assuming this glitch is a cheat, which it is not as I pointed out in my previous post, especially if you like to go by definitions. Also, Thunderwaving Rhydon sucks anyways.
Number 2, those were just examples I was giving as a rationale as to why people would use the GLITCH. I don't promote the idea of cheating.
Well here, you are trying to relate two unrelated things. I have no problem in not hiding anything I'm doing from Nintendo. Besides, as it is, they don't do anything about this stuff anyways, as evident by the hacked Pokemon on GTS. Also, let's look at your friend the dictionary for the definition of exploiting:
Dictionary.com said:
I don't see nothing about exploiting being cheating. If you exploit a glitch, it is not cheating. If anything, it falls under the first definiton, and maybe two also. But neither state anything about cheating. And yes, the definition of manipulating also does not mention cheating.
The "get any move on Ditto" glitch in GSC isn't cheating? Getting 128 of an item in about ten seconds with MissingNo. isn't cheating? Getting a Mew with non-predetermined DVs isn't cheating? Getting (and by extension using) a Pokémon over level 100 isn't cheating?
So go to one of their events and tell them how you duped items and Pokémon like a beast.
True, except in the sense that you're modifying the rules to suit yourself. A more apt comparison would be printing copies of cards you already own.
Indeed. However, two notes. First, Raph Koster is a professional with many years of experience in the online gaming industry. The man quite simply knows what he's talking about. Second, as I mentioned, his points on cheating are very clearly defined and work for any game, online or offline.
The rules of the mall tour specifically stated one Mew per person. I remember this quite clearly because I tried to get one on both Blue and Yellow. Nintendo says one Mew per person + person getting multiple Mews by duping = breaking rules = cheating. I did it, you did it, thousands of others did it. It's nothing to be particularly ashamed of.
I'll cut back on what I have to say to the bare essentials, but I'm still going to fight this "abusing a glitch isn't cheating" mentality. Contrary to appearances, I don't even care if people are duping like mad or not (after all the duping I did in Silver, that'd be very fine hypocrisy). As long as both players agree to use a team raised with duped items/Pokémon, that's fine and dandy. They just need to admit what they're doing without any BS, which is largely what I'm interested in with this thread.
Chromecatz
New Member
Who even cares if your cheating...
as long as you dont use them at events then your in shape.
as long as you dont use them at events then your in shape.
LegacyEeveeVGC
Active Member
Wow I started something....
I like this debate.
I like this debate.
Regis_Neo
Moderator
I personally only use this cloning glitch to make spares of a Pokemon I put a lot of work into EV training/breeding so that I can put it on another gamepack and have a spare in the event one on of my gamepacks's data gets messed up, or I lose one. I mean, I view it sort of like backing up data, for lack of a better term I suppose. Now, using this glitch to copy Rare Candies and level up Pokemon...well, I'm not so sure about that. Besides, you can buy Rare Candies now for BP thankfully.
EeveeLover929
New Member
Me, I'm going to use it for tourney reasons. Specifically, to clone prizes for them. For instance, if I were to offer a Master Ball as a prize, not only am I not going to have one for myself, but I will also never be able to use that prix=ze again. same goes for the Mew and the Darkrai one of my friends promised me. I'm going to get set up with those two, and perhaps a Shaymin and Arceus if I'm lucky.
LegacyEeveeVGC
Active Member
I might just use it for EV and Event Pokemon.
EeveeLover929
New Member
Oh yeah, Event Pokemon too.
Mew
New Member
DANG IT! I put my Dialga up for cloning with a 1 per game TM, and I ask for a Lv 9 and under Empoleon.
In the process of doing the glitch, a JPN player using an cheting device, traded a Lv 2 Empoleon for my Dialga.
***, apparently, this glitch can be disrupted by someone using a Wild Pokemon modifier. UGH, if they're going to use a cheating device, why not just hack themselves a Dialga
Anyone got a Dialga for trade ? :*(
In the process of doing the glitch, a JPN player using an cheting device, traded a Lv 2 Empoleon for my Dialga.
***, apparently, this glitch can be disrupted by someone using a Wild Pokemon modifier. UGH, if they're going to use a cheating device, why not just hack themselves a Dialga
Anyone got a Dialga for trade ? :*(
ColdCoates90
Active Member
DANG IT! I put my Dialga up for cloning with a 1 per game TM, and I ask for a Lv 9 and under Empoleon.
In the process of doing the glitch, a JPN player using an cheting device, traded a Lv 2 Empoleon for my Dialga.
***, apparently, this glitch can be disrupted by someone using a Wild Pokemon modifier. UGH, if they're going to use a cheating device, why not just hack themselves a Dialga
Anyone got a Dialga for trade ? :*(
Ouch.What a bad beat.
DANG IT! I put my Dialga up for cloning with a 1 per game TM, and I ask for a Lv 9 and under Empoleon.
In the process of doing the glitch, a JPN player using an cheting device, traded a Lv 2 Empoleon for my Dialga.
***, apparently, this glitch can be disrupted by someone using a Wild Pokemon modifier. UGH, if they're going to use a cheating device, why not just hack themselves a Dialga
Anyone got a Dialga for trade ? :*(
I'm laughing too hard to say anything derogatory.
Seriously, I'm sympathetic that you lost your (hopefully legitimately obtained) Dialga and TM, but losing them by botching cheating while trading for a sharked Pokémon is just... yeah.
PkmnManiac
New Member
Don't you believe him that it was a Legal Dialga?
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