Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

"Declumping" a Deck

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If i see 3 rare candy next to each other, i'm going to seperate them. I shuffle well after doing it, AND you have the option to cut if you think something is up. While i do agree it is wasting time as the randomization will make it moot, its just a "habit" i guess. I also shuffle my hand back and forth which i notice a lot of other top players DONT do, because it is also a habit. I dont in any way think its cheating if you're watching me shuffle AND you have the option to shuffle after i do.
 
I'm sorry Jason, but I don't agree with you at all. I mean okay, if they don't shuffle well and you can prove that, then fine, they are cheating. If it is late game and they are winning, but going to lose, fine. But if they take 5 seconds of their search to declump and then shuffle well afterwards, there is no issue with it, as there deck becomes random again. Not everyone has a hidden agenda when it comes to declumping. I know that whenever I have declumped, it didn't have anything to do with the reason you gave, but to just get some cards away from it each other, however I shuffled thoroughly, so the cards could have ended up back in the exact same spots I declumped them from.

Drew
 
If someone rearranges the cards in their deck and then sufficiently shuffles then i see no reason to have anything against that. As long as all of the rules are kept (like length of search) and their deck is sufficiently randomized then there is no problem in the rules with that, and i see no reason why you should have an issue with it either. Shuffling enough eliminates cheating (unless their REALLY good at stacking), and if they stay within the time limits then there is no waste of time as per the rules.
 
Ness said:
If it's shuffled thoroughly, then it's just wasting time. Read, my friends.
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I would first like to point out that your post was very snarky. Second of all, if you take an excessive amount of time (as deemed by the judge) than you will take a punishment according to the crime committed. I think this is 'much ado about nothing', if I may.
 
chrataxe said:
As for saying its cheating...well, like I said, you can randomize it. And:

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=155886
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You have also failed to read my post. If you are sufficiently randomizing your deck afterwards, of course you aren't cheating. (Though I should point out very few people shuffle thoroughly enough.) However, you are still wasting time. Why spend time moving cards around when they are going to be shuffled, anyway? Whether or not that is "allowed" does not change that you are indeed wasting time.

There is no question that players are allowed to move their cards around in their deck as they wish. But, like I said, their shuffle then determines if they
1) Cheated.
2) Wasted time.

TheDarkTwins said:
But if they take 5 seconds of their search to declump and then shuffle well afterwards, there is no issue with it, as there deck becomes random again.
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You are still wasting time, Drew - just in your scenario it's only a very small amount of time.

gallade said:
I would first like to point out that your post was very snarky. Second of all, if you take an excessive amount of time (as deemed by the judge) than you will take a punishment according to the crime committed. I think this is 'much ado about nothing', if I may.
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Oh, I'm sorry. When we play, I'll be sure to ask you more kindly to not stack your deck. A judge doesn't rule on you simply "wasting time." (How could they? It's subjective in many areas.) A judge only interrupts when a rule has been broken. Just because you can waste time doesn't mean you should. You can Damage Swap damage back and forth to the same Pokémon as long as you're not doing it flagrantly, but that doesn't mean you aren't wasting time.

________________________

If it was a judge's job to tell you not to "declump" your deck, then I wouldn't have made this thread.
 
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The problem is nobody is declumping their deck as a "habit". Their intention is "I don't want a bunch of the same card in my hand". Unfortunately, this is cheating.

On the other hand though, almost nobodies intention here is malice. Most declumpers have no idea that they are doing something wrong, and would instantly stop doing it with a proper explnation as to why this is unfair.

With that being said I think Jason should give a better, more easy to understand explaination on why declumping is a no no.
Posted with Mobile style...
 
I thought my explanation was pretty simple, but I'll elaborate.

"Declumping" is when players see their cards arranged in an undesirable pattern and attempt to rearrange them. For example, a player spots 3 Rare Candy next to each other. "Well," he thinks, "I don't want to draw 3 Rare Candy back-to-back! I usually just need one. I'll spread them out to give myself a better chance of drawing them individually."

Sometimes players do it the other way - moving cards they WANT next to each other. For example, placing my Gothorita, Rare Candy & Gothitelle together. Now, while this seems more malicious, it is no different than separating undesirable cards. It is wrong for the same principle - you are attempting to unrandomize your deck.

The argument declumpers use is that they are shuffling anyway. Well, if they shuffle well enough, those cards would end up randomized regardless of them moving the cards around while they searched. Additionally, many declumpers either
1) do not realize it takes a lot of shuffling to thoroughly shuffle a deck
2) realize this but attempt to trick you into believing they are randomizing their deck

The best example of #2 is the guy that shuffles during setup, then picks up his deck, moves some cards around and does 3-4 riffles before giving it to you to cut. 3 riffles is fine he thinks, Afterall, I had just been shuffling for a full minute! No. The moment he picked up his deck he negated all of his previous shuffling.
 
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I think Case I is the tough one and that's the main reason you're posting. What's the best way to shuffle? That can be another thread in and of itself.
 
The best way to shuffle a deck doesn't work well with Pokémon cards. It's called a wash, and it's where the deck is laid face down on the table and spread out. Then, the shuffler uses the palms of his hands to mix all the cards into one big pile, simulating a washing motion. Casino dealers do this for card games.

There are two reasons this doesn't work well in Pokémon:
1) The cards aren't symmetrical so about half of your cards end up upside-down.
2) Sleeves have a slit that allows for other cards to become trapped inside them, and can rip a sleeve.

There are three main ways to shuffle a Pokémon deck:
1) Pile shuffling
2) Riffling
3) Stripping (also called overhand or sliding)

I begin with one riffle, then pile shuffle. Then I repeatedly riffle & strip the deck. The reason you should always riffle a deck at least once before pile shuffling is because someone could theoretically place their deck in a pattern that made the pile shuffle actually stack the deck, creating the illusion of shuffling while they were actually stacking their deck. A riffle would disrupt this pattern.

I will shuffle as much as I possibly can until it is time to setup. Those of you that have played against me have probably noticed this. In fact, after the Georgia Marathon and Nationals my knuckles were actually cut from shuffling so much.
 
An opposite issue to declumping cards would be those who after a game keep entire evolution lines with energy togeather. Making T2 Magnezone all the more likely even after a good shuffle
 
...Are we seriously arguing over this? I mean seriously? If a player does this and shuffles their deck, which most players do, then there shouldn't be an objection. It all comes down to preference. Not everyone thinks about shuffling in the same way, and some people think that breaking these cards up is a good idea, because 'what if the cards aren't split up when I'm shuffling?' and they 'de-clump' to prevent this from happening, weather it be in an attempt to prevent dead drawing consecutively, or increase their chance of drawing it. If it helps then 'Yay!' and if doesn't 'whatever,' but my point is not everyone thinks about 'what is the highest statistical way of doing this,' and take an obvious answer weather it's right or wrong, and weather you're right or wrong about it being a waste of time is irrelevant. If your opponent does it, then shuffle their deck and let the moment pass (unless a significant problem arises). It's the player's choice, and not the opponent's, or your's.
 
Even I do this. When I search my deck and I just happen to notice staples next to each other, I move them around, still taking the allow amount of time needed for a search. I don't see it as cheating as long as the opponent gets to shuffle and or cut.
 
To be honest, this isnt a big deal. If you're talking about the two seconds it takes to seperate three of the same card over something like slowplay and legal stalling, theres a problem. It isnt cheating unless you let them cheat(not shuffling their deck even though you believe they stack)

Slowplay and "legal" stalling are the two much more important things that you should invest time into solving.
 
Yeah, declumping is stupid and shouldn't be legal. If you don't shuffle afterwards, it's basically stacking your deck, and if you DO shuffle your deck afterwards, it's pointless and wastes time.
 
I only do this if I mulligan 3+ times, and it seems to work every time. And as long as it does I don't care beyond that, because I'm not going to let my opponent draw 5-6 extra cards.
 
vaporeon said:
Even I do this. When I search my deck and I just happen to notice staples next to each other, I move them around, still taking the allow amount of time needed for a search. I don't see it as cheating as long as the opponent gets to shuffle and or cut.
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Even you do this? Yes, that doesn't surprise me.


Mazu said:
I only do this if I mulligan 3+ times, and it seems to work every time. And as long as it does I don't care beyond that, because I'm not going to let my opponent draw 5-6 extra cards.
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Nothing you do should seem to work. If you are successfully manipulating your draw in any way, you are cheating. Your odds of mulliganing should be the same each time you draw 7 cards and it should be based purely on mathematics. It is not okay to stack your deck. Yes, even if you mulligan 3 times it is not okay to stack your deck. When you mulligan, you're only drawing 7 cards, so I'm not sure exactly what you're doing. If you simply shuffle your hand into your deck, that's fine! In fact, it's probably better than placing it on top of the deck since it throws off your order of some cards you knew in your hand. But if you're simply taking the 3 Junk Arm cards in your opening hand and spreading them into your deck as you choose, then riffling a few times and offering a cut, you're cheating.

The reason that mulligans seem to happen in groups is a result of something I mentioned earlier: poor shuffling. When you mulligan, there naturally is a higher chance that many of your Pokémon are near each other in a deck. This unevenly distributed amount of Pokémon creates more areas you can draw 7 cards from the deck without a Pokémon. If you don't shuffle well enough, there is a high chance these Pokémon will still remain in some form of a cluster. That is why it is important to still give a good shuffle, not just 3 riffles after a mulligan.

TheRolesWePlay said:
Not everyone thinks about shuffling in the same way, and some people think that breaking these cards up is a good idea, because 'what if the cards aren't split up when I'm shuffling?' and they 'de-clump' to prevent this from happening,
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If they think that the cards aren't going to separate naturally during shuffling, they are not shuffling well enough. The only way those two precise cards should remain together is by chance. If you are "declumping" to prevent them from having the same chance of remaining together as they would staying next to any other card, you are cheating.
 
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Declumping can only be deemed cheating:


- during a game, and
- when you're shuffling

However, during a game, and when you're searching your deck, declumping is NOT cheating, to a point. Moving 2-3 cards around takes "no time." Moving many cards around is certainly wasting time, and could be considered cheating, depending on the circumstances.

After a deck check, when my deck is sorted, I ALWAYS declump my deck, even if that deck check is done during the tournament rounds.

So, I'd say declumping is not a "black and white" issue (pardon the Pokemon pun).
 
Wow Jason... I actually agree with every word you said. This should definitely be against the rules in a tournament setting for multiple reasons, even if the base penalty is just a caution at smaller events.

BTW, can you do this in an official program like PTCGO? What about the old GameBoy game? No? Then you probably shouldn't be able to do it with the physical cards either.
 
SteveP said:
Declumping can only be deemed cheating:


- during a game, and
- when you're shuffling

However, during a game, and when you're searching your deck, declumping is NOT cheating, to a point. Moving 2-3 cards around takes "no time." Moving many cards around is certainly wasting time, and could be considered cheating, depending on the circumstances.

After a deck check, when my deck is sorted, I ALWAYS declump my deck, even if that deck check is done during the tournament rounds.
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That's not true. If you stack your deck and then do not shuffle sufficiently during setup, you're a cheater. Remember when Sammy Sosa was using a corked bat during pregame batting practice? Then, he brought that corked bat into the game. Was this not cheating? Same concept.
HypnosProjectHQ said:
BTW, can you do this in an official program like PTCGO? What about the old GameBoy game? No? Then you probably shouldn't be able to do it with the physical cards either.
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There was an option on the GameBoy game to sort your deck so that you could find cards you were looking for more easily. Of course, in real life this would take minutes. This was different than manipulating the order of your deck as you choose, though. Even though both produce an unrandom pattern, GameBoy/PTCGO sufficiently randomize your deck instantly, so it wouldn't matter, anyway. (As for wasting time, the time limits during your turn don't matter on GameBoy and on PTCGO your total time allowed is limited to 20 minutes.)

Not every attempt to move cards through your deck is malicious. If you are moving your Pokemon around in your deck to determine what Pokemon are prized, that's perfectly legitimate and your intentions are pure. (Keep in mind that you must still do a thorough shuffle that will disrupt this pattern.) However, there really isn't time to do this kind of extensive deck analysis when doing a simple deck search, and if you are, you're probably playing too slow. And unfortunately, 95% of the time I've see someone moving cards around in their deck, it is their attempt to manipulate their order of the cards. And I would say almost 100% of the same I see someone "declump" their deck, they do a very brief shuffle that is likely to maintain their artificially-produced order of cards in their deck.

Likewise, there is no malicious intention when someone plays a Pokémon Collector and prepares his choices by moving them to the front of his deck. These things are different than stacking a deck.
 
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