Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Disclosing Deck Lists?

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It's not about handouts. Tournaments are being won not because of player skill, but because of an information war. The steps that have taken place over gaining someone else's list is sickening. Paying 100 bucks for a list only tells me that the winning players in this game are going to the the ones with enough money to bribe good players for those lists. So are we going to let something like that continue? Players are paying each other for little more than a slip of paper. If this was truly a game where the players who make the best lists, playtest the most, and have the most experience win anyway, there should be no problem with releasing the lists. The best player should already be ahead of the game to begin with.

For some reason, top players in other card games don't seem to have this problem. And there is no issue with their decklists being handed out after a tournament. Wizards posts the top 8 lists from every major tournament, and I see the same people make the pro tour every single year. Apparently, there's no problem with the so called handouts you seem to be against.
 
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Articjedi said:
It's not about handouts. Tournaments are being won not because of player skill, but because of an information war. The steps that have taken place over gaining someone else's list is sickening. Paying 100 bucks for a list only tells me that the winning players in this game are going to the the ones with enough money to bribe good players for those lists. So are we going to let something like that continue? Players are paying each other for little more than a slip of paper. If this was truly a game where the players who make the best lists, playtest the most, and have the most experience win anyway, there should be no problem with releasing the lists. The best player should already be ahead of the game to begin with.

For some reason, top players in other card games don't seem to have this problem. And there is no issue with their decklists being handed out after a tournament. Wizards posts the top 8 lists from every major tournament, and I see the same people make the pro tour every single year. Apparently, there's no problem with the so called handouts you seem to be against.
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So what you are saying here is.... There is NO skill in building, testing, and perfecting my deck??? I will strongly disagree with you. I have proven this to be true several times

Its quite obvious you are a subpar player asking for a list to (hopefully) better your odds of actually winning something. TUFF!!! Put in the time and maybe you'll find it helps. Quit the whining already... Its MY choice who I want to share my list with. NOT nintendos.

BTW.... THIS ISNT MAGIC!!! Although you are welcome to go play it as you seem to like their ways better.

Jimmy
 
Ballard, I never wanted nor need your list. I usually get the best lists anyway. I have enough connections to do so. In fact, I'm probably hurting my own interests by even proposing something like this.

So why am I in the first place? I dunno, I feel altruistic today. Taking a couple months off from the game lets me look at this from something other than a player's perspective.

Besides, wasn't it you who showed how desperate people can be by putting up your list on ebay? This whole proposal stems from your actions, here's your solution, and I know it's exactly the one you didn't want to see.
 
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Matt, SDs are good because some of us need the advantage. There are really good in-game players out there that just SUCK at making lists (and you and me know one). If the players who make an SD give the list out, then all those sucky deck-builders that are great in-game players suddenly have a greater chance of winning an event. I think you and me both know of a player that fits this category who is better than some of the good deckbuilders. SDs are needed in this game to give players an advantage.
 
I agree with ArticJedi (ohhhh, I'm back).

Players are winning big tournaments by riding the surprise slide to first place. It's not happened once, it's happened multiple times now. Each time it's involved a good deck popping up and surprising the overall metagame enough to slide right into first place.

I will say that these decks take a lot of effort to build and test and just having the idea (raieggs for instance) doesn't mean you actually play tested it and and tweaked if enough to come up with a version that did well.

The same decks that slide past players one day, run into walls the next (RaiEggs at Worlds, Medicham at Worlds, etc) because the surprise factor is gone and because the players have tech'd for that deck and moved on to say.

I do feel giving out tournament winning deck lists would benefit the game. You know it isn't going to hurt the best players in the game, who even after it's one time use, they tweak it even more and make it better. They are always going to have the best versions. It just means that the overall population has a very good list to work off of too. It takes emphasis off of the deck, and knowing the (1) good list that so many players emphasize, and puts it on learning to actually play the deck as well as Jimmy plays his Eeeveelutions, or Yamato his Team Magma. It puts more emphasis on the skill of the player, which I'm surprised doesn't interest more people.

I feel the overall population of players would get better at the game. They would have to. They have tournament winning lists and can see how they tick and run, and adopt and add those to their own ideas. They can play test against the decks that kicked them out of the top 32 at Nats just recently. A lot of people love the World Theme Decks because it's good for training. Now think about having a new deck to play test against every month. We'd all get better in my honest opinion, or at least those who try to get better. But we'd have to get better to survive. With so much less emphasis on decks, you will have to play the best to win.

True there is a lot of luck in this game, and I can see why people don't want to leave it up to skill to win. They want to take advantage of every little thing that can put them over their opponent.

I don't think it'd be a bad idea if the first place list of every state/regional was given out. The game kind of moves on pretty quickly imho, as can be seen with decks being played between nationals and worlds that don't do as well both times because other decks have tech'd and moved on.

Sure, it'd take the emphasis off the deck list. A lot of people take pride in their deck list and there is a lot of talk about there being only (1) good deck list (which I feel is bogus). But you could still brag about having your own tweaked, tech'd list, that the overall population would not have. And that is where I see the deck affecting who wins. A regular player might have 3 Rayquaza, 2 Mew, 1 Mew d, 2 Stantler, etc, etc, but the player who has adapted the list and evolved it into the version with Exeguttor, or whatever version is the best version now, will most likely have an advantage.

I agree with ArticJedi. I also feel things could be done differently than they were in the past and it wouldn't ruin the game. It might actually blow a breathe of fresh air back into the game.
 
The game is not just won at the table..the deck building aspect of the game is every bit as important to competition as the actual head to head matches. People who develop the best decks AND who also have great playing skills SHOULD ALWAYS maintain their advantage over players who only rely on only their skill at a table.

I just don't understand the concept that information should be shared with the community. I doubt that players of other games would choose to give away their lists unless it was part of the agreement to play in their major tournments.

The next logical step you guys would want proposed is that every player must show their deck lists to all the competition PRIOR to entering a tournament so no one can achieve an advantage...And in all honesty, if you step back and look, that is really what you want. You want to know the deck lists of all your competition and for them to know yours.
 
If top players want to give out useful deck tips, more power to them. If they don't want to, thats also cool. I respect the person that wants to protect the time and money they've put into a secret deck. I remember back in the day....lol....when I was a lone player with no friends affiliated to pokemon OR I might add computer access...(was pokegym around when wizards had pokemon?) I was pretty good back then and I might say deck ideas were far superior than they are now. Now in college, doing all the duties and such coming along with it, I struggle to find free time to commit to pokemon. With pokegym or other sites, I can easily just put together a deck a night before a tourney, and easily make a respectable finish.

I'd dare conclude that myself and others would be better off if the pros in the game kept the deck deck info to themselves. Dozens of you just fell out of your chairs, but bare with me lol Therefore, as the kind of person that loves pushing things to the edge, would dare say that the pros of this game giving out advise and deck lists is harmful to us like drugs, and pokegym is like a drug dealer providing us with the easy high..err...win (or loss if your that terrible of a player):wink:...

Pretty much thats my view in a humorous sense. I would argue with my own argument however :eek: that is not the pros(drugs) that are causing the problem but those that buy(in this case read) them from pokegym (drug dealer in this instance).

Although I poked a little bit of fun at myself above in the opening paragraph its not me, but alot of other players in mass I'm concerned about. Some of them I know have a genius at pokemon I probably won't ever obtain, but very large number of players IMO lack some serious deck building skills and rely on net decking. When I can name off someones list card for card at a tournament something is wrong. This is only hindering themselves I think, but what can you do once your hooked....



I know, your thinking OMG he has more gibberish to say!!
Answer: Of course, I have several months of not posting to make up for :biggrin:

......ok nvm i'm done :lol:
 
The deck building aspect is important, but not much in my honest opinion. It's the actual testing and refinement idea of deck building that is important. Where the person who spends a lot of time with a deck and learns to play it in their sleep gains the advantage over the person who just finds the list and builds it. We can all agree that the first player would have a big advantage. So I don't see why there is a problem with giving out tournament winning lists.

The surprise factor is gone, and players that see the list aren't going to be able to just pick it up and play it as well as the people who originally made it. And if they can, then that player has a lot of skill and should be doing well in the game anyways.

Prof Clay, you don't understand the concept that information should be shared with the community. Why is that? Because you don't feel players should give up the advantage of knowledge? That you'd rather take advantage of every little thing so you can win? I'm guessing here. There's a reason for your feelings on the subject.

What I'm saying is that if deck lists were given out by POP, it would take away advantages players have and it would force players to get better at the game, and not just get by barely by the surprise/knowledge advantage.
It wouldn't fizzle out any strength of SD's though. Because it hasn't won a tournament, nobody would have lists for the decks in the making. Thus SD's would still help give players a chance to surprise the metagame and slide their way to victory.

It really just affects what happens after the deck wins. And honestly, what is a single deck list here and there? How is that really going to hurt players? Players tech/tweak their deck even after it goes undefeated at Nats/Worlds, so they will always have the best version or a better version.

What are the downsides?

Tournament winning lists are published and are known by everyone after the tournament. But this isn't that bad anyways, since we find out about World Championship lists anyways and by the time the lists are posted by POP, the players who worked on the deck have already altered it/tweaked it.

I can't think of any more disadvantages.

People would have something to study, and something to play against, which would improve skill a lot (in my opinon).

I like the idea of players outside of the elite getting better. I don't know if the elite like the idea though. It'd be more competition for them. Some might like it though.
 
Prime you hit it on the head...I do not feel that players should give up EARNED Knowledge that gives them an advantage over the field for the sake of helping players who have not put in the effort and energy to come up with their own new concepts

As my daughter so eloquently put it to me just now...there are 3 aspects to the game
1) Luck...you try and minimize that as much as possible by..

2) Deck building...a definite skill which should be learned by all "elite" players whether you agree or not

3) Table play--know your deck which you build OR copied from another source, but know it for every situation and against every known possible deck you could play against

Why would anyone willingly give up an advantage in any one these 3.

I undestand that you folks in favor of deck sharing want the tournament environment to be more "friendly"...but as long as the prizes are large, it makes no sense not to use EVERY skill you have without crossing a line if you understand my meaning on that.

The only players I feel obligated to make better players are my daughter and our local players because we are a team..not a close knit one...competition among ourselves can be fierce...but we will band together to improve the play of each other going into events such a Nationals. As of this weekend there are 17 players from the Memphis area who will be attending and I want them all to play on Sunday



"Tournaments are being won not because of player skill, but because of an information war. The steps that have taken place over gaining someone else's list is sickening"--Articjedi

Do you honestly think that the top 30 players in the Masters division are winning because they are preventing other players from learning what they have learned? I have judged many of the top players this year...including Jimmy and Ness...and amazingly enough, even when they run archetype decks that everyone knows, they still somehow manage to come out in the top ranks...weird how that happens.
 
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Prime, I can positively say having a very good deck list is 80% of the battle. People can say all they want about skill but there are only so many ways you can play a particular card pokemon card. In a vast majority of matches I've lost its been due to a tech I didn't think about. ie: Zapdoes ex in Metanite (i'll stop there as that match pains my heart to much), but I hope the point is understood.
 
Are they really giving it up?

I don't know of many players that can pick up, let's say Yamato's Team Magma deck and play it as well as Yamato could. And those that could, wouldn't they be doing well in the game anyways?

I don't want players to be lazy either and just netdeck and win tournaments. But you can't say that giving out tournament winning lists would allow players to be lazy and win.

The player will the more skill is going to win on average. Sure, there is a lot of luck in this game and a player could netdeck and win, but that happens now too, so it wouldn't be anything new.

People can fake decklists (netdeck) but they can't fake skill. A good decklist will only take a player so far. And when decks evolve past the good decklist, the decklist will be worth even less.
 
Even if you gave out the top lists, the better players would still (usually) outplay the "weaker" player with the same deck list. Unless you are playing the game for "funsies", you dont give away ALL your secrets. You can help other people with deck lists, go to league and help people, etc. Posting the winning decks will not change who is doing well in the long run.

Keith
 
Lawman said:
Even if you gave out the top lists, the better players would still (usually) outplay the "weaker" player with the same deck list. Unless you are playing the game for "funsies", you dont give away ALL your secrets. You can help other people with deck lists, go to league and help people, etc. Posting the winning decks will not change who is doing well in the long run.

Keith
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Then what's so bad about disclosing deck lists?

If this change were to occur, it wouldn't destroy competitive play. The community would adapt to the new circumstances and move on. The game now is about 50% deck building, 40% skill in-game and 10% luck if you ask me. If everyone began to netdeck, then most of the deck building factors would be shifted over to skill in-game. This wouldn't be bad, it would just be different. However, this appears to be a move that the community is unwilling to make.

Also, there would be those who still did not net deck and created their own lists. After all, netdeckers have to get decks from somewhere, right?

JMHO,

~ Zephyr
 
Prime said:
I don't know of many players that can pick up, let's say Yamato's Team Magma deck and play it as well as Yamato could. And those that could, wouldn't they be doing well in the game anyways?
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Me neither, but we're not really talking about just picking up a deck and playing it. We're talking about someone posting a deck, say like Raieggs a week before last years nats. It'd only take the average player I'd think a minimal amount of time to realzie how the deck works. Play some apprentice, and just like that you have a player that could go against Martin as a 60-40 dog.
I can't stress enough how much skill it doesn't take to win a tournament.
Look back at when I won states with Zap-turn-dos. A monkey could've played that deck and won. Mewtric, Raieggs, etc are decks that don't need skill they need a credit card to build some sleeves to be put in, and you have yourself a top 8 finish in your local tourney.

Of course there are decks with more play options such as Metanite, but lets face it, give me the list Yamato is going to play a week or even a day in advance and I'll wreak havoc on any tournament.

After you give the top deck lists away, skill comes down to nothing more than deciding who's the best guy to snipe with Steelix.

I don't know why people actually want top players to post their decks. It kinda takes the fun outa the game if you ask me. There is nothing more thrilling then winning with your own invention.
 
Well I don't advocate posting SD's before they impact the game. I've made that clear many times in this thread.

I do feel giving out winning decklists wouldn't be bad. The skilled players would still win, because they would tweak and tech their decks and would know how to play the deck better than someone who just netdecks.

The format would still change, you'd still see the same decks out there, but players would have more items to train against, to study, etc, etc, and would most likely become better players.

We aren't talking about posting Raieggs a week before Nats. We are talking about posting a list for the RaiEggs martin played at Nats, maybe 2 weeks to a month afterwards. By that time, people already had a good 80% draft of what cards were in the deck anyways.

What's the problem here?
 
No problem from my side if that were to go down. More knowledge for me the better chances i have at a tournament.
Problem comes when you or I are the makers of a SD. I'd want to keep that deck even after winning nats as confidential as possible for worlds. I'd feel betrayed if POP decided to post my list without asking me if it was ok or not. As I'd be in mind not to post it.
 
90% of the choices you will make in a tournament have already been made when you turn your decklist in.



More than any other TCG, Pokemon gives massive benefits to those who are willing and able to get the superior lists. how many viable decks are there in YGO right now? It can't be anywhere near the 14 that made Regs T4 in Pokemon.
 
Prof Clay said:
As my daughter so eloquently put it to me just now...there are 3 aspects to the game
1) Luck...you try and minimize that as much as possible by..

2) Deck building...a definite skill which should be learned by all "elite" players whether you agree or not

3) Table play--know your deck which you build OR copied from another source, but know it for every situation and against every known possible deck you could play against and be able to adjust your play when you encounter an unforeseen deck
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Your daughter is pretty smart there.:cool:

I completed the thought in red.
 
Stripes said:
No problem from my side if that were to go down. More knowledge for me the better chances i have at a tournament.
Problem comes when you or I are the makers of a SD. I'd want to keep that deck even after winning nats as confidential as possible for worlds. I'd feel betrayed if POP decided to post my list without asking me if it was ok or not. As I'd be in mind not to post it.
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POP doesnt have to ask you if they can disclose/use your decklist....you gave them that right by playing in THEIR tournament!

Keith
 
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