Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Disclosing Deck Lists?

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A discussion started about netdecking in post #14 in this thread about Danish Nationals. The discusion is piced up again on post #27 by MPMichael and me, and I decided that instead of posting more off-topic comments in that thread, I'll instead post my next response to Michael in this topic - which after all is the topic for "disclosing deck lists" discussions ...

Basically, my opinion is that the secrecy of decks should be respected before they've made a public debut, but as soon as they've WON a tournament, they should be public knowledge. That's why I in Norway posted all City Champion's deck lists (press "Se vinnerdeckene!") and have done so for several years. Doing this, I completely elinimate the discussion going on in this very topic. Norway's top players won't need to have to put up with endless discussions about them having to "give back to the community" by posting their decks on forums, I just force them to be posted on the official website and that's the end of the story.

Now for my next reply, which I decided not to post in the Danish Nationals thread. :p

MPMichael said:
There will always be players, who quit the game. Newbies need, as the rest of the players, time to learn the game and its stradegies, which they will only learn by playing the stronger players, and not by copying their decks.
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I refuse to believe any player ever went beyond newbie status in any other way than copy another player's list. Can you honestly say you did? I sure copied decks! First I used crappy decks, then I started copying decks and became quite good, then I made my own lists and became really good. That was the story for me, and for everyone else I've ever heard of (note that I'm not talking about card-for-card 1:1 replicas, but general copying of decks).

It is silly to try and hide a list which you already showed to the world. 2, 3 or 4 Mentor? Once again, getting access to this exact info will only help the bad players, not the good players. A good player can hear the general idea about a deck and make out the rest of the deck. He will know how many copies he should play of each Trainer card etc. Only the weakest players will need a complete list, so why not help them?
 
There are archetype articles for a reason. The only deck not there that is a real archetype is Absolutions, and that article is coming.

Now, since they have a strong base list, why do they need the PRO list?

Regardless of what you all may think, the top players aren't going to do more than occasionally make the archetype articles. Deal with it. Our opinions are obviously not going to meet up, so there's no point in discussing this further. Each side thinks the other is completely wrong and irrational, but one group holds the power- the people who make the lists. We do enough by putting archetype articles up, we shouldn't be expected of any more.
 
The future looks bright! /sarcasm

On the topic of Archetype Discussions, they'd be better if the people who worked to make the deck actually published them. Recently, only 1 has had that. If you want to say helping someone is actually publishing it though.

Ryan, the skilled players don't do enough. That's my opinion, and I'll stick to it. They have the most to give back and they just don't do enough.

All for their little advantage.
 
Lawman said:
POP doesnt have to ask you if they can disclose/use your decklist....you gave them that right by playing in THEIR tournament!

Keith
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Yeah, that thought didn't come out right on my part. I get that as my deck lists have been published in the past.

The articles that are published currently are more than enough info I think for players needing a little help.
 
The thing is that people want the pro lists just because you can't win any tournaments with MetaNite that only has Meta and Nite. People who aren't skilled enough to invent techs for decks like MetaNite NEED the innovation from the pros.

If nobody "shows them the way" they'll never become as good players as the pros are at the moment. It happens in our every day life. The teacher teaches something to student and someday the student will be in the teacher's place somewhere. Pros have to share the knowledge to other players, otherwise the game won't develop the way we want to.

That's way it's better to game that the complete lists are published not only the "Hi here is our new supermegadeck MetaNite, it has Metagross d and Dragonite d and it attacks with Metagross d". Yeah that won't help anyone. After you've already won a tournament with any SD there is no reason to keep it as a secret anymore.

I don't comment on if PRO players help the community enough or not but I can guarantee that if you help sharing the information you'll make a huge favor for the whole community.
 
hey all...

Pretty heated arguement here....

If you go back and compare the HAVES and the HAVE NOTS you will clearly see the seperation in opinions.

Those that are too lazy to "do what it takes" clearly are the ones BEGGING for this information to be posted. Those who are PRIVY to the information or who has DEVELOPED the information clearly does not want it out.

I suppose that since Windows XP has been out a while, its time for Microsoft to reveal to the world how it works and all the intricate details it took to get it to that point. Seems silly huh? Same thing here...

I will say it again, THOSE WHO DO ARE DOING!!! Quit all the whining and do something about it. We are not your mother and do not have to "bottle feed" any of you.

BTW... Prime... I have posted this before... Just because YOU dont see the LEETS doing, doesnt mean it isnt happening.

Get over yourselves already.... No one handed Micheal Jordan anything. HE WORKED FOR IT!!!

Takin it all in stride,
Jimmy
 
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Microsoft vs Open Source. Linux is doing very well and the BSD unix-a-like variants have the best reputation out there for security. As to publishing the source code it wouldn't help much without all the design documentation. I think you picked a very bad example there Jimmy :)

FWIW I think that the archetypes and featured articles do more for the middle players (like myself) than any leet super tweaked list ever would. I'll take the 90% list and explanation over the 100% list every time. I'd probably have to make changes anyway to compensate for my limitations and the local metagame.
 
BANGINBOX said:
Those that are too lazy to "do what it takes" clearly are the ones BEGGING for this information to be posted. Those who are PRIVY to the information or who has DEVELOPED the information clearly does not want it out.
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In relation to "doing what it takes," I'm not begging for anything. If you'll look at the original post for this thread, I didn't even want to go into the whole "secret deck" idea, as the topic will inevitably revolve around the perspectives of two different players: the "elite" and the "casual" player. I'm definitely not trying to gain something from having this discussion.

I choose to post a great deal of information on this forum because I recognize the game as a chance for people to grow, for a community to thrive, and for everyone to win in the end. I still believe enough in my skill to perform well at any tournament, and I don't believe that simply posting lists online is going to hinder my ability to do well. The information I have developed recently is readily available to many people, and I'm proud of that.

You mention that people are "whining" over all of this, but I'm not sure I actually see it anyone whining or begging for anything. So far, I feel that this has been a rather healthy discussion. People have made their points in a wonderfully concise manner without much flaming or anything. Thanks to everyone for that.

One thing I'd like to add...

I find the whole discussion of "secret decks" to be very interesting for a few specific reasons. I had trouble putting my finger on it, but I noticed as this discussion went on that people were quickly splitting into two groups: those who would like to see decklists posted more, and those who don't. Along with this split came the idea that "elite" players do not want decklists posted, and "casual" players do. I certainly have issues with this whole idea, but it's been pushed to near fact by many people who have replied here.

The "secret deck" mentality serves to aid the "elite" players, this is no doubt. Gaining an advantage over one's opponent by means of secrecy is effective in winning (even if it is controversial). However, I'm starting to see a disturbing trend in which this mentality is an exercise of power over those who simply don't know where to start in building an effective deck in today's format. Understand that I'm not referring to decks that have been posted here on the Pokegym, but rather decks that remain a secret to everyone but the "elite."

The philosophy that one plays this game to simply win has been noted as a bit of a joke, but there are certainly people who seem to follow this idea without hesitation. Whether it be by secrecy (think of the whole Destiny ordeal), intentional abuse of the system (players stalling other players out), or poor SOTG (numerous tournament reports nearly poke fun at players with less-than-perfect decks), it has become apparent that certain behaviors within this game accompany a disturbing power issue.

More on this later...
 
Why are people attacking the fact that some decks are kept secret?

If you need to know your opponents decklist and strategy going into every game, you probably dont need to worry much about winning anyway, A good player will overcome.

The only ones who dont like the supprise factor are the ones its meant to hurt
 
BANGINBOX said:
Those that are too lazy to "do what it takes" clearly are the ones BEGGING for this information to be posted. Those who are PRIVY to the information or who has DEVELOPED the information clearly does not want it out.
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So because some people haven't made a SD, they've been lazy? That's absurd.

How many SD's have you made Jimmy? I'm counting two. Eeeveelution/Pidgeot and Destiny. Now, why haven't you made more? Are you being lazy?

Of course not. People can't be expected to make an SD. Heck, one SD might come out every 3-4 months from a group of 5 people among thousands of players in the nation. To assume that the other 99% of the players that didn't come up with the idea are lazy is silly.

I found something to be true in this game, and in life in general. Some people are better in certain fields than others. While some players might have the capability to come up with some of the best ideas in the game (Pooka comes to mind), some players might not have that ability but might be able to pick up a deck the night before and go undefeated with it at Nationals (Martin). Some players might just have so much skill that they consistently do well at tournaments, yet lack the ability of the other two.

We all can't be expected to come up with SD's.

Another reason why I feel those that do have the ability to come up with the best ideas in the game should give back to others and help them become better.

BANGINBOX said:
BTW... Prime... I have posted this before... Just because YOU dont see the LEETS doing, doesnt mean it isnt happening.
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Funny how you mention then when RyanVergel said on the other page said this:

ryanvergel said:
Regardless of what you all may think, the top players aren't going to do more than occasionally make the archetype articles. Deal with it.
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So I guess Ryan's wrong then?
 
Prime....

I cant speak for Ryan, I can only speak for the LEETS n my area that give more to the game than you will ever know. I do believe that he was speaking about the content that was being issued to this board. No more than that. Good twist on words tho, I liked that.:thumb:

I have made many more decks than you have printed words. Trust me, Lazyness is NOT the reason I am where I am today. You just happen to know of 2.

So since big words seemto be to difficult to understand, let me put it simple for you....

A) I build a deck
B) I test the deck
C) I tweek the deck to fit the metagame.
D) I bring deck to tournament
E) I Play with deck in tournament.
F) I bring deck home and tweek some more for next tournament.

That seems to work for me... Why isnt it this simple for everyone else? WHY do I have to DO THE WORK for others to benefit from? Thats what I mean when I say LAZY!!! Again, good twist on words, you are makin me proud!:thumb: Who do you think helped me??? NO ONE!!! I didnt get a list off the gym and tweek it. I put in the time to EARN the prize. Jeez, doesnt anyone WORK for what they want anymore?

I do not want to continue a 1 on 1 conversation about this. I build to win. I dont neccesarily PLAY to win. I play to have fun. I get most of my enjoyment out of BUILDING!!! Why should I just volunteer the Information that I discover thru all my hard work to people who would benefit from doing NOTHING???

That my friend is ABSURD!!

BTW??? Is Destiny STILL an SD? I dont think so, however, I still get people asking me for lists. I do not mind helping, However, DO NOT ask me for MY list!!!

Takin it all in stride,
Jimmy
 
100% agree with Jimmy here: there's a difference between helping people and doing everything for them. When you "benefit the community," that does NOT mean you're going to give away a decklist and win someone else a tournament...rather, it means that you're "generally" willing to help people become better players.
 
I can understand both points.

I don't think anyone wants people to be lazy and netdeck and win tournaments.

Jimmy, I never said you were lazy. I said the opposite actually. My point was that just because you don't see someone's deck in the archetype discussion or somewhere else doesn't mean the person isn't trying their best to come up with new ideas.

People don't want to give the public their idea because there is an advantage of your opponent not knowing every card your playing. And sometimes if your opponent doesn't even know what deck your playing, you can have a even bigger advantage. Is that the gist of it?

Well after the premier tournament is over, people are going to know about your deck, so the second advantage is gone pretty soon after it does well. The first advantage will only be lost if one keeps their deck to the exact same cards as the list that people know of. I'm sure people know of Jimmy's Destiny, but even with that, most would not be able to guess Jimmy's deck card for card, because he continues to update it.

So what would be the problem with someone like Jimmy coming out and posting his list after (whatever tournament it did well in, was it states?) to the public? By that time, Jimmy has most likely updated it past it (Exeguttor maybe by now) and thus his list can't be used against him. People can speculate and usually come up with a very rough yet close draft of the deck, so what is the big disadvantage with giving the people the other 15% of the deck?

If I knew the disadvantages of this kind of thing, I'd be able to understand why players don't want to do it. But seriously, there aren't many disadvantages that I can see.
 
I cant speak for Ryan, I can only speak for the LEETS n my area that give more to the game than you will ever know. I do believe that he was speaking about the content that was being issued to this board. No more than that. Good twist on words tho, I liked that.
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That's EXACTLY what I meant. Nice try, Prime. Nice try.

People can speculate and usually come up with a very rough yet close draft of the deck,
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They already have 85% of the deck... what more do they want? The whole deck? Why? The whole deck won't even work for them, since the other 15% of the deck should be metagame-specific, as with most decks.
 
It might be my first season playing, but anyone who talks to me or knows me knows that I am decently skilled in coming up with deck ideas and working lists. I invented southamerica.dec before anyone, including myself, knew about Destiny and won a state with it. Jimmy will tell you that I've helped a lot with Destiny since then. Now that that's out of the way, I want to say that when I spend hours and hours testing an idea, finding out what needs to be fixed, etc., there is no part of me who wants to give some random person on pokegym who i've never met the list i just came up with. If someone posts a deck in the Deck Help forum, I try to help them if I can. I have helped numerous members with lists they've sent me for Destiny, Shiftry, Metalix, etc., and done so with a glad heart. In fact, I just helped someone with their shiftry list like, 10 mins ago through PM. If a player comes to me asking me to HELP them with their lists, I'm more than happy to. If they say, "hey, can I have your list?" it's basically like asking me to give away all my time and effort to a stranger... it makes NO sense. Prime, you are fighting a losing battle my friend. NOTHING you have said makes any coherent sense. Why not just give all the money you spend time and effort making to the first random person you meet? Would that make sense? Why don't inventors immediately tell all of the rival inventors their idea before they patent it? It would make absolutely NO sense. The point has been argued to extinction, but you still seem to find it necessary to try to sway our opinions in some way. NO ONE will give out lists to pokegym if they have a chance of winning anything major. Sure, I'll post ideas from time to time, in fact, I just posted one last night. However, if i am developing a format breaking deck, i will choose the people i tell VERY carefully. I probably posted this for no reason sense I haven't read anything but what people have sent me links to on AIM, but this is my opinion on the subject.

Good day.
 
Rambo, you don't get my point. It seems that many people don't get my points. I never said once in this entire thread that I want people to give away lists for the SD's they are working on. Find me saying that and you get a cookie. Ah, I'm all out of cookies. :p

The last comment I've made is how I feel it wouldn't hurt the game at all if POP released the deck list for the deck that wins a big tournament. How it would help the game in my honest opinion. We already get the list for Worlds, so why not Nationals? Hurt your chances? The same deck has NEVER won both Nationals and Worlds (under NoA). Usually the deck that wins Nationals usually flops at Worlds because people tech/plan for it.
 
Rambo1000 said:
It might be my first season playing, but anyone who talks to me or knows me knows that I am decently skilled in coming up with deck ideas and working lists. I invented southamerica.dec before anyone, including myself, knew about Destiny and won a state with it. Jimmy will tell you that I've helped a lot with Destiny since then. Now that that's out of the way, I want to say that when I spend hours and hours testing an idea, finding out what needs to be fixed, etc., there is no part of me who wants to give some random person on pokegym who i've never met the list i just came up with. If someone posts a deck in the Deck Help forum, I try to help them if I can. I have helped numerous members with lists they've sent me for Destiny, Shiftry, Metalix, etc., and done so with a glad heart. In fact, I just helped someone with their shiftry list like, 10 mins ago through PM. If a player comes to me asking me to HELP them with their lists, I'm more than happy to. If they say, "hey, can I have your list?" it's basically like asking me to give away all my time and effort to a stranger... it makes NO sense. Prime, you are fighting a losing battle my friend. NOTHING you have said makes any coherent sense. Why not just give all the money you spend time and effort making to the first random person you meet? Would that make sense? Why don't inventors immediately tell all of the rival inventors their idea before they patent it? It would make absolutely NO sense. The point has been argued to extinction, but you still seem to find it necessary to try to sway our opinions in some way. NO ONE will give out lists to pokegym if they have a chance of winning anything major. Sure, I'll post ideas from time to time, in fact, I just posted one last night. However, if i am developing a format breaking deck, i will choose the people i tell VERY carefully. I probably posted this for no reason sense I haven't read anything but what people have sent me links to on AIM, but this is my opinion on the subject.

Good day.
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WALL 'O TEXT....

Paragraphs are your friend =p

But regardless of how your post came out, I completely agree with everything you said.
 
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