Ex-ped On format, not highly received

[davechri]

the difference is that there is no possible way for YOU to control what your opponent has Active, aside from sheer dumb luck. This ability was present in all other formats (including Limited, depending on the set...)

FT, Bullados is right. It's a matter of control.

Double Gust let me choose which Pokemon my opponent brought out, but it was balanced by the fact that my opponent affect my active Pokemon as well. That added a layer of tactics that is missing from a straight Gust of Wind.

Warp Point has its place, but still I'm not choosing which Pokemon is my opponent's active.

I'm hoping that we see something like DG come out in the form of a promo.

 

[Flippin treeko]

K, thanks for taking the time to explain. Maybe though it's just too powerful a game mechanic ? but in saying that dwindling wave just popped into the back of my mind!

 

[SwampertEX]

now that Salamence is out the whole "Controlling Your Opponent" thing may change... Ya Never Know...
-Swampert

 

[jdb728]

now that Salamence is out the whole "Controlling Your Opponent" thing may change... Ya Never Know...
-Swampert

It's kinda like Aquapolis Victreebell, they're both Stage 2 lines, so basiccally, the only gust abilities(That you get to choose the benched pokemon) are cards that require you to base the deck around them.

This post is IMO of course, feel free to disagree if you wish
Thanks for reading

 

[Perfect0ne]

Think realisticly, we only got a format "to keep us busy", they want money...simple...they don't want us to buy Exped-Sky. so they will wait and make EX-on the tourney format for future premiere events. Forget EXped-On.

 

[sneaselsrevenge]

Think realisticly, we only got a format "to keep us busy", they want money...simple...they don't want us to buy Exped-Sky. so they will wait and make EX-on the tourney format for future premiere events. Forget EXped-On.

What's your point? That's the nature of the game. They wont change the format for another 2 sets at least though.

 

[bubicus]

After reading 80+ posts, I feel the urge to add my own opinions... keep in mind I play mostly EX-on with my friends, so most of my examples use EX cards.

- "lack of draw power": draw power is greatly overrated, in my opinion. A Linoone (RS), Oracle, Wynaut, Girafarig, Clefable (Expedition) and/or Dunsparce can get all of the necessary cards you need for your strategy pretty quickly. I believe that it's better to be able to get the exact cards you need with Linoone and the others, rather than by gambling on drawing them with an Elm each round. Also, there is no way any Trainer can compete in draw power against a deck containing three or four Delcattys.

- "too many Supporters" and "not enough Trainers": are you kidding? Every Supporter in EX-on except TV Reporter is way too powerful to be made a normal Trainer. (Heck, Briney is just plain super-powerful...) I'd hate to see Oracle or Copycat as normal Trainers, too. Many Pokemon have Trainer-like attack effects (such as the ones listed in the previous paragraph). The obvious disadvantage about using an attack to get your cards is that you can't damage or cause a Special Condition on your opponent's Pokemon. However, this disadvantage is GREATLY offset by the ability to do massive damage by the third or fourth round because you've got the exact cards you need in your hand. After all, in two rounds a Wynaut can pull out a needed Basic Pokemon (first round) and then two Stage 1s (Wobbuffet and the evolution of the other Basic, for example), a Stage 1 and Stage 2, or whatever other combination of Pokemon you might want. Sacrifice is part of the game's strategy.

- "too hard to get the level 1 Pokemon that have the Powers or Trainer-like attacks": consider Professor Elm's Training Method, Wally's Training, Poke-Ball, Oracle, Pokenav, Wynaut, etc... there isn't any strong argument for this statement. There's too many ways to get the necessary evolution cards. See the previous paragraph to see how useful Wynaut is, for example.

- general playing speed issues: games seem faster to me, time-wise, than before. When I play e-on or EX-on, I often have most of my needed cards in the first 2-4 rounds and I rarely have to reshuffle afterward, so the game moves quickly. When I play Unlimited, every round slows down with all the Cleffas, Copycats, Professor Elms, etc. getting played each turn. Sometimes there's three or four shuffles per player in a single turn, so the game slows down a lot.

- "Gardevoir ex = Godevoir ex": some ways to stop Gardevoir ex: Wobbuffet, Shedinja, either Breloom, Gyarados w/Energy Drain, Kirlia w/Energy Drain, Energy Removal 2, Arbok, Salamence's Dragon Wind... I just mentioned some of the possibilities in EX-on, but there's plenty of different tactics to use (and more to be found in e-on). Confusion, too!

- "e-on sucks": I don't think e-on sucks because, well, I don't own many Neo cards, so I can't play Ne-on well. However, my friends and I actually play each other with EX-on decks a lot. The focus on Pokemon, rather than Trainers, for deck strategies allows decks to be a lot more diverse in content. We love to play 2-on-2, which isn't really viable in the e-on format (in Unlimited, it's broken: try a Dark Gengar deck in 2-on-2...). The game's pace is faster in EX-on, too, so it's more exciting. I feel that the sooner that the game moves from e-on to EX-on, the better.

 

[jdb728]

- "too many Supporters" and "not enough Trainers": are you kidding? Every Supporter in EX-on except TV Reporter is way too powerful to be made a normal Trainer. (Heck, Briney is just plain super-powerful...) I'd hate to see Oracle or Copycat as normal Trainers, too. Many Pokemon have Trainer-like attack effects (such as the ones listed in the previous paragraph). The obvious disadvantage about using an attack to get your cards is that you can't damage or cause a Special Condition on your opponent's Pokemon. However, this disadvantage is GREATLY offset by the ability to do massive damage by the third or fourth round because you've got the exact cards you need in your hand. After all, in two rounds a Wynaut can pull out a needed Basic Pokemon (first round) and then two Stage 1s (Wobbuffet and the evolution of the other Basic, for example), a Stage 1 and Stage 2, or whatever other combination of Pokemon you might want. Sacrifice is part of the game's strategy.

Well, I don't think that it's where people want "Oracle or Copycat as normal Trainers", I think it's kinda like you mentioned, even stuff like TV Reporter are being made Supporters, so you either use the once per turn supporters, or the once per turn attacks that have the effect of a Trainer.

- "too hard to get the level 1 Pokemon that have the Powers or Trainer-like attacks": consider Professor Elm's Training Method, Wally's Training, Poke-Ball, Oracle, Pokenav, Wynaut, etc... there isn't any strong argument for this statement. There's too many ways to get the necessary evolution cards. See the previous paragraph to see how useful Wynaut is, for example.

Good point, except for the part that all of these effects are once per turn, except for Poknav(which leaves more up to luck then other cards like Elm), Poke-Ball(Which is way to flippy).

- general playing speed issues: games seem faster to me, time-wise, than before. When I play e-on or EX-on, I often have most of my needed cards in the first 2-4 rounds and I rarely have to reshuffle afterward, so the game moves quickly. When I play Unlimited, every round slows down with all the Cleffas, Copycats, Professor Elms, etc. getting played each turn. Sometimes there's three or four shuffles per player in a single turn, so the game slows down a lot.

Unlimited "slows down" because it's not GAME OVER when you get your big EX fully charged on the bench.

- "Gardevoir ex = Godevoir ex": some ways to stop Gardevoir ex: Wobbuffet, Shedinja, either Breloom, Gyarados w/Energy Drain, Kirlia w/Energy Drain, Energy Removal 2, Arbok, Salamence's Dragon Wind... I just mentioned some of the possibilities in EX-on, but there's plenty of different tactics to use (and more to be found in e-on). Confusion, too!

well, you're right, there are ways to counter Gardy EX, like Wobbuffet, and Shedinja, however they're knocked out bye the other stuff in a Gardy EX deck, like Kirlia(For Wobbuffet), or Ralts(for Shedinja),
but I'm not seein' how Arbok, and Breloom really counter it(they're both easily knocked out in one attack by Gardy EX, ER2 relys on flips, the energy Drain stuff could work, if they have don't use Boost NRG, and you don't keep enough cards in your hand for it to knock out your active, and umm, Salamence, I don't even understand that one(sorry but I don't).

- "e-on sucks": I don't think e-on sucks because, well, I don't own many Neo cards, so I can't play Ne-on well. However, my friends and I actually play each other with EX-on decks a lot. The focus on Pokemon, rather than Trainers, for deck strategies allows decks to be a lot more diverse in content. We love to play 2-on-2, which isn't really viable in the e-on format (in Unlimited, it's broken: try a Dark Gengar deck in 2-on-2...). The game's pace is faster in EX-on, too, so it's more exciting. I feel that the sooner that the game moves from e-on to EX-on, the better.

Dark Gengar "Broken" in Unlimited(2on2)? I don't know if I'd say that, but it is powerful, but If we go to EX-On, there's practiccally NO draw power, since we'd have Linoone, Delcatty, and umm, yeah.
Either way, they're your opinions and you're entitled to them, so I'll stop butchering your post for now.

This post was IMO of course.
Thanks for reading.

 

[bubicus]

Well, I don't think that it's where people want "Oracle or Copycat as normal Trainers", I think it's kinda like you mentioned, even stuff like TV Reporter are being made Supporters, so you either use the once per turn supporters, or the once per turn attacks that have the effect of a Trainer.

The balls (Fast Ball, Master Ball, Poke-Ball, etc.) and Energy Retrieval System are very valuable non-Supporter cards. It's mainly because of my philosophy that getting the exact (or nearly exact) card you need is more important than raw and random draw power, and those cards allow me to get more than one per turn beyond whatever a Supporter like Oracle or Professor Elm's Training Method might get me. I guess I'm in the minority with that belief. Maybe it's because I stopped playing Pokemon TCG after Team Rocket and didn't start again until Expedition, so I'm not used to playing with the Cleffas and Professor Elms and whatever. But maybe that's why I like e-on and ex-on: because I never got used to Ne-on?

well, you're right, there are ways to counter Gardy EX, like Wobbuffet, and Shedinja, however they're knocked out bye the other stuff in a Gardy EX deck, like Kirlia(For Wobbuffet), or Ralts(for Shedinja),
but I'm not seein' how Arbok, and Breloom really counter it(they're both easily knocked out in one attack by Gardy EX, ER2 relys on flips, the energy Drain stuff could work, if they have don't use Boost NRG, and you don't keep enough cards in your hand for it to knock out your active, and umm, Salamence, I don't even understand that one(sorry but I don't).

Well, when playing the "sacrifice" strategy, I would sacrifice the Arbok or Breloom in order to do lots of damage to Gardevoir ex on your next turn. Gardevoir ex is weak to Grass, so I could inflict massive damage. On your next turn, you get two prizes to your opponent's one when your next Pokemon comes in and knocks it out (unless your opponent can heal Gardevoir ex fast).

In 1-on-1 play, Salamence's Dragon Wind is like a Gust of Wind. You can bring in those Ralts, Kirlia and Gardevoir ex and take them out before they can be a threat.

Though, I must admit, since the thread is about e-on, I should have thought about Boost Energy. Oops. Yeah, a Gardevoir ex with Boost Energy is pretty darn powerful. If one got knocked out, another one on the Bench could potentially attack with Psystorm on the next turn with another Boost Energy. Like I said, I play mostly ex-on these days, so I didn't think of it...

Dark Gengar "Broken" in Unlimited(2on2)? I don't know if I'd say that, but it is powerful

Well, maybe not quite "broken," but certainly one of the most frustrating to play against in a 2-on-2 Unlimited match. Try Hypno (Aquapolis) with Dark Gengar and a Pokemon that has Dream Eater (like Haunter). In 2-on-2, you can make that Hypno and a Haunter your Active Pokemon. With just one Energy, you can inflict 50 damage every turn with Dream Eater, starting in the 2nd round of play! That means that you are free to power up your other Pokemon after the first round. Furthermore, with Dark Gengar in play, your opponent has only a 25% chance of getting out of being Asleep at the beginning of his or her next turn, unless your opponent's deck is stacked with Full Heals, Switches, Item Finders, Double Gusts, or whatever else that can remove the Special Condition. If your opponent's Pokemon wakes up at the end of your opponent's turn, you can instantly put it back to sleep with the Hypno. And if Dark Gengar has the Energy for the Pull In attack, you can even choose another of your opponent's Pokemon to be Active, inflict 30 damage, make it Asleep, and later use Hypno's Pokemon Power and Dream Eater on your next turn. It's VERY annoying...

But anyway... back to the original point of the thread. My post is drifting off topic...

 

[nikePK]

bubicus:

No, i think you would like this format fine even if you did play ne-on. I LOVE this format, ne-on was good, but it doesn't have all the deck variety this format has. There's like 12 decks that can be huge on the tourney scene, and that's not counting all the rogue stuff some kid has built and not posted on the internet anywhere, you know it?

Supporters keep the game balanced. Stop complaining about supporters, criminies. You have LOADS AND LOADS AND LOADS of pokemon that search stuff out, search energy, search pokemon. The game's pace is almost the same as neon because of stuff like this.

Gardevoir is not unstoppable like you all think it is. HECK, its not even the top deck in this format IMO

The gust stuff, yeah we don't have the control we did before. Who hates that? You LIKED having to play Suicune/Entei? Did you LIKE getting turn 2 Cargo'd? There are still ways to gust (Vbell, Salamence) and there are ways to switch out pokemon (warp point, swellow).

Just my 2 cents, but I love this format. The game changes, its not going to be unlimited or neon or whatever FOREVER. This format, HANDS DOWN, has the most variety of any format we've ever had. EVER.

 

[bullados]

until the next G8r, RK9, or Cargo comes out (and they will come out, we just don't know in what form)

 

[Flippin treeko]

With 'N' having full control over licensing and production now it is more likely it'll go MTG way and they WILL have the ability to stop cards being played OP. It was difficult when a third party produced the cards under licence as it was basically a situation of who is legally allowed to prevent the product being acceptable for licensed events.

 

[Satoshi]

"I think the one thing that's gone is the whole "get one guy out and win" because Gold Berry is gone."

...yeah, that's gone. Now it's more like "Get my guy out and clean house because without a decent to semi-decent Trainer engine there's no real way to rebound once I've got the upper hand."

Let me give you folks a little background here. I started playing during Base, and soon after worked at Pojo.com where I stayed for four years. I recently retired from the game (more or less; I still play Unlimited via apprentice), and Nintendo's newly found control of the game was one of the key factors in my dropping out.

Ex-On is easily the slowest format the game has ever seen. With Trainers now more or less restricted to one major draw card per turn, the game has lost nearly all of the competitive strategic edge it once had.

Someone said something about how boring it was to see a Top Eight consisting of seven or eight of the same type of deck. To me that's not boring; that's solid testimony to how well that deck performs. The person that WINS that kind of Top Eight is a true player; their deck has been tweaked to its truest potential, they understand the inner workings of their chosen deck, and ultimately knew that the deck they played had the best chance of winning in that enviornment. True, there will be the occasional carbon-copy deckbuilder who gets their deck from a friend and gets lucky, but this is hardly ever the case to nab first. To get first place, you must KNOW YOUR DECK. That is the mark a truly good player.

This was especially true in Ne-On. But in Ex-On....

In Ex-On you can know your deck inside and out. You can know that the 3-2 or 2-2 line of Delcatty is simply there for draw and serves no other purpose than to be Gust-bait, and you can know that you're basically limited to one decent draw Trainer per turn. You can know that if you don't get what you need on that one draw Trainer then you're essentially done for that turn. You can KNOW all of that, and still games will not prove who the better player is. The games will instead prove the powers of drawing into what you need before the other guy.

In the new Top Eights, we're bound to see a whole gangle of decks - but not because they're good. No, I fear that many of the "winning" decklists will achieve their high status simply on the basis of grabbing what they need before the other guy gets what he needs and them getting built up quicker.

Who remembers the old Prop15 days? Guess what? They're back.

The little bit o' sarcasm I started this post with is, I admit, a little be exaggerated. But not by much. Ex-On has essentially de-evolved Modified. No longer is it a game of strategy. No, my friends...Pokemon Modified has turned into a game of "My-Big-Scary-Monster-Can-Beat-Up-Yours."

One more thing....

TRAINERMON is not the insult you take it to be. Trainermon to me reminds me of a time when Trainers played the role they should play in this game: helping to set up the game in your favor, holding off the other guy until you can get your big dudes up and running. And to do that, YOU NEED TO GET THE CARDS YOU NEED, not simply hope that you can slide by on one or two cards a turn. If that's not the key focus of the game, then tell me. Why are you using Delcatty?

If you need further proof that Pokemon has hit its low point, then simply look around. Where are the mentors? I see the TC is still around, and for that I salute them. Thanks for sticking with it, guys. You rock. :-D

Everyone else, you'll find, has since moved on. The radically changing game has taken a turn for the worst, and it's running off GOOD PLAYERS. A majority of the good players left, I'd wager, are playing...*drumroll*...Unlimited. And it's still fun. In Unlimited, the player's skill controls the deck; the deck doesn't control the player's skill.

Think about it.

~Derek "Satoshi" Heid
Former Deck Mechanic and Staff Writer
Pojo.com

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

Everyone else, you'll find, has since moved on. The radically changing game has taken a turn for the worst, and it's running off GOOD PLAYERS. A majority of the good players left, I'd wager, are playing...*drumroll*...Unlimited. And it's still fun. In Unlimited, the player's skill controls the deck; the deck doesn't control the player's skill.

That or organizing.

At this point, most players I've talked to are fed up with sealed play. I think any kind of constructed premiere event would grab some of those who have spent money outside of the Prerelease registration fee on cards. Modified or not.

But I dont think we have to worry about any sort of big big big sanctioned constructed Modified events till March-Aprilish. So feel free to play unlimited and sanction unlimited tournaments if it tickles your fancy.
-Phil

 

[Satoshi]

Phil, I'll thank you never to say "tickle your fancy" again. It's just wrong coming from you.

It's interesting that you bring up the idea of some draft beomg tired because honestly, the card pool right now would make for some killer drafting. That, I think, is probably the only realistic fate for Ex-On.

In my opinion, it's a fallacy to think that just because it's offered that people will go to play it. They might go for one or two events just to test the water, but once the format is tried, it's my honest opinion that many of the veteran players - those that the community needs to provide a basis for good deckbuilding, like it or not - will be gone to either Unlimited or another game entirely.

This brings me to another point. If Nintendo wants to be taken seriously in its handling of the game, it has seriously got to STOP with the horrendously awful deckbuilding advice it puts out in Nintendo Power every month. Sweet mother of mercy...it almost makes me want to cry. They go from unfocused deck to unfocused deck with rare cards. Yeesh. I would HATE for decks like that to become "the Norm" just because Nintendo says it's good.

Phil, who do we talk to to get them to put some effort into their fixes and not just try to sell cards?

 

[davechri]

One more thing....

TRAINERMON is not the insult you take it to be. Trainermon to me reminds me of a time when Trainers played the role they should play in this game: helping to set up the game in your favor, holding off the other guy until you can get your big dudes up and running. And to do that, YOU NEED TO GET THE CARDS YOU NEED, not simply hope that you can slide by on one or two cards a turn. If that's not the key focus of the game, then tell me. Why are you using Delcatty?

Satoshi, I could not agree with you MORE.

The trainers augmented Pokemon attacks and power and made for a lot of creativity.

The new format is "Get your biggest, baddest Pokemon out first and you win." Well, there's a little more to it than that, but just a little.

 

[NoPoke]

Well both sides use the same arguement in both defense of their position and as criticism of change.

Namely that the game is 'JUST' my big monster/Basic vs your ......

So lets list some bad things....

1) Who goes first wins
2) Heads I win ....
3) tails you loose...
4) Who gets set up first wins.
5) Once you are behind you can't recover.
6) All conquringsuper-monsters.

1) is obviously bad.
2) and 3) Exemplify the worst excesses of FlippyMon (Tyrogue and Focus Band anyone)

4) Is tricky. It is the essence of a good deck that it sets up reliably and quickly. So as long as setup is not decided by top-decking then Speed *IS* Pokemon. But if the belief that setup is determined by top-decking gets hold then then competative game at the higher levels is in trouble.

5) The ability to make a come-back is crucial to competative play. There have been moves in this direction with the one-retreat per turn, removal of gust, and those Fossils that don't yield a prize. Defensive play hasn't figured much in pokemon's past. It was always a necessary skill but was never as important as it is now.

6) Hmm well the minor basics are of very little value now.. 40HP and a 10 damage attack vs a BIG BIG MONSTER: Its only going to end one way and no BIG MONSTER is going to be much bothered by being tickled to death over 10 turns.

So less FlippyMon is a good thing.
The extra emphasis on good defensive skills is a good thing.

But I am with many of the unhappy campers in disliking the cannon fodder aspect that is part of the game with these 100+HP Brutes running rampant. The ratios of health and damage seems to be widening in Pokemon. Maybe its not true and its just that old 'GOD' phenomenon: {good old days} Memories da de da de de de dum.....

 

[Flippin treeko]

Erikas jigglypuff, oak, plus power, oak, plus power, pulled punch OHKO win.............That's what you want???? Pease don't anyone take offense at this statement but....that sux. Turn 2-3 win.......sux.......5 trainers in one go.......sux...OK so if your playing apprentice a bit and your playing in tourneys and leagues fine you don't want to be messing around, you know your dex and you know what combo's are good, you've a really good idea about what else is good out there and what else is a realistic threat to your dex. I can't think how many times I've seen it written, articles on pojo, posts on these very boards, neo-on between 2 good players was decided in the first 10 seconds of the game, as soon as the coin lands heads or tails, lass...oak..blah! THAT was the single most disappointing revelation I found! Plus is it not e-on, not ex-on? and will remain so until 'N' bring out sets to correspond to fire and leaf on the GBA to cover all of their little creations. Most of those unhappy with the new MF seem to be, but are not exclusivly, peeps with 'pro' in their name or those that where veterans to the game, I suppose like the veteran role player morns the death of a favorite character it's difficult to let those deck creations go.

Q : Is the game about strategy and game playing ability or is it about deck building and probability analysis? There where no 'real options' and remain none in unlimited because end of turn one your going down a predestined line, e-on it's all a bit up in the air......live on the edge a little, if you lose why the biggy? it's only a game of pokemon cards (or is it heresy to say so?)

No offense to any commentators this is all IMO.

PS sorry to repet you nopoke you posted as I was composing

 

[Otaku]

Hmmm... Let's see, I've played since Base Set was released.

Locally I am considered good, which means I am roughly average at the national level, perhaps a little below as recently I am doing worse in Unlimited (I plays what I likes, not what I know will guarantee the win).

I currently work at Pojo.

As for you bservation that "who ever setsd up first wins"... nope, going to have to disagree based on experience. First and foremost, I played a game against someone at my skill level naught but 2 nights ago... and I came back from a 3 prize deficit, with their deck having set up fully. To emphasize the point, they had taken 5 prizes to my 2. They had wasted my supporting line of Pokemon, and had one of their main hitters up. Then I was able to get up my beefy main hitter, and ressurect my supporting line quickly. From there, I was able to build a solid base and much to my opponent's annoyance, reecover for the win. My opponent had a good, strong deck. I like to believe my deck was okay at least. Had this been Unlimited, there are probably 5 likely outcomes:

1) We start withy soemthing like Tyrgoue Vs. something it can OHKO. 'Rogue FTKO's it for game.

2) Rogue doesn't FTKO it for game and insetad get's FTKO'd itself, for the game. E. Jigglypuff would also work for these examples.

3) Someone top decks Trainer Denial when they have a good set up, use it, and my only hope is the Baby Rule and Focus Band(s). The infamous Lass/Eeeeeeek combo.

4) Second turn the person who went first drops a couple Slowking, and I need them to have bad luck with their Mindgames and Baby Flips to stand a chance.

5) Someone Counter-decks you. Of course, just as common is when your counter-deck is counter decked. Don't mistake that for skill automatically: it can be skill, but most of the time a counter will be a liability unless most opponents play what you are countering.

Do I enjoy playing Unlimited: yes, when people aren't too hidebound to experiemnt. I've stated it repeatedly: if Deck X is 15 of the 20 decks in a tournament, then at least half the top 10 decks will be deck X. Now, I am not saying everyone has to play "ultra-rogue" decks, but lay off the crutches if you are not a newbie. Second, "crutches" refers not to Trainers, but to some of the most overpowered Pokemon: Neo Genesis Sneasel and Slowking. Without those two, I think Unlimited would be more fun. Simply put, I see lot of rogue decks that without those two would stand a chance. Or if they were simply errata'd: Slowking to its Japanese state and Sneasel with a Fighting Weakness, then my experiences lead me to conclude we might see a teensy tiny amount of diverstiy... but this is besides the point.

What I enjoy about Eon is that it seems to have more "meat" to it. When I playa game of Eon its like a good meal-I have time to enoy the flavor. With Unlimited, it's like most bite size candy bars: tasty, but after a briief sugar buzz it leaves you feeling flat.

Eon had many things going for it. For one thing, Pokemon of various stages and types have a chance. I have seen a few "Haymakers" being designed, and have actually seen Stage 1 decks work. Stage 2 decks of course their, as is someone expected for Modified. We have good Trainers that are incredibly hard to abuse. We have some of the most efficient disruption in Eon. Now, let me make this clear, it's not because the cards that do it are incredibly potent; it's because all the over-powered draw cards are gone, so now a Desert Shaman at the right time can cripple someone. I know, I had almost gone through a perfect set up: my supporting line, SS Xatu, was at 3 and going to 4... I had an active Wynaut with PPP on it, ready to become an SS Ffet... and I had my Nidoking (the decks main hitter), Nidorino, and Nidoran Male all in hand and ready to go. Then my opponent Desert Shamaned, and proceeded to pick off my Pokemon in play one by one with his own FFet. No deck is over-powered in this format: the closest is Gardevoir ex decks, which can be fiends... but can also flop. I play RaNdOm about a month ago with one of my decks... I literally was a single energy away from winning. He went about 4 turns sans a basic and another 4 without anything better than a Kirlia... but despite running 20 energy, I never got it. WIth one more energy, my Wobbaffet would have been up and running. Oh well.

Finally, and this I cannot sit on: most of the "elite" who left the game in recent times... were not nice people. If you were "one of them", they'd be great. Both in my own interactions with some and how they treated others, they tended to have massive egos due to their wins. Were they skilled? Almost certainly: they were, in terms of gameplay and usually deck building, the best. Their sporstmanship was usually the worst though. If you disgreed with them, you were the "know nothing #$%*! n00b!" and how dare you think "I" (the 'pro') could be in error. I will not names, because a)this is my opinion based on my experiences with them. Since I did not get along with them, and some were quite profane, I didn't bother with them a lot.

 

[nikePK]

That gold berry quote I think was from me...

The game is slower... Compared to Unlimited, of course its going to be slower. Its not THAT much slower than neon modified. It just takes more than turn 2 to usually get setup, and is that a BAD thing? I think it isn't.

"Now it's more like "Get my guy out and clean house because without a decent to semi-decent Trainer engine there's no real way to rebound once I've got the upper hand."

You CAN AND OFTEN DO make comebacks in this format, its not what you say Satoshi. You have to sacrifice some basics, sure, but there is very little bench control (gust) in this format, which allows for the big comeback. You would think that if they have the upper hand, they can just keep trudging through the deck to keep ahead of you, but that's not the case. Semi-decent trainers also keep them down, and can put you up. Like someone (otaku i believe) mentioned, Desert Shaman can cripple people. I've won a few times against people on apprentice just by shamaning at a strategic time.

Also mentioned was that a bad draw (or not drawing into your stuff before your opponent does) results ina loss. Again, comebacks are made and such. Of course you CAN lose by this, IN EVERY FORMAT YOU CAN LOSE AND DO LOSE BY THIS. At gencon, I got ko'd 2nd turn because all I had was an Elekid. I played 2 Fanclub and like 13 basics... and even after an ELM i still didn't get a basic. Then, my focus band fails. So, see, in neon, not drawing into your crap results in losses too. This kind of crap happens in EVERY card game, even in this card game where we have all kinds of draw power.

I don't think winning decklists will win just because they get their stuff out fast. They are going to be damn good decks.

I agree about the fact that trainers make the game exciting, fast paced, and a whole lot of fun. I would like to see a bunch of new cards NOT being supporters, that'd be really nice. But I mean, look at what we sacrifice for that. We sacrifice balanced gameplay. IN EVERY unlimited deck, you're playing Oak. In EVERY unlimited deck, you're playing cpu search.

Lass makes it possible for that 1st turn takeoever. There is none of that in this, Shaman slows them down, but without stuff like Crobat or Umbreon, its hard to keep them down long enough to just run through their basics with something big.

There's no pleasing everyone. People complain now, they complained before, we've all complained about the formats. If it was unlim, people would be complaining. I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there is still plenty of strategy in this game. Yes, you can virtually only play 1 draw card per turn. However, look at all the pokemon that draw/search/attach extra stuff. there's TONS. The game is more centered on pokemon than trainers, and once you adjust, I think it gets really fun. Who likes playing against the same deck over and over again? I don't, and that's one more reason I really love this format. Almost every game you play is something new, and new decks just keep rolling out from all of the creative people on this board.