Politoed666
New Member
Not everything that is different or unequal is unfair. This is unfair.
Fall Regional Prizes Anounced
- Thread starter Prodigiosus
- Start date
ChaosJim
Member
I feel like a lot of these posts aren't actually two people debating one another, put people laying out the debate for others to understand. I feel like this is particularly the case when people disagree and remain respectful to one another.
It seems that we've hit the point in the conversation about Customer Lifetime Value (CLV).
The assumption or research based conclusion it seems TPCi has come to is this:
1) A Junior or Senior will be more likely to continue playing the Pokémon Trading Card Game based on winning a Travel Stipend than a Masters Division competitor.
2) The money made in the future from the date of a player receiving a Travel Award increases the younger a winning player is.
3) Age and success at Regionals or the ability to travel to Nationals are the primary factors in whether or not players continue to play the Pokémon Trading Card Game. Since Pokémon cannot change someone's age, they will increase the impact of success at Regionals or the likelihood of someone's ability to travel to Nationals.
I believe that players who age up will have their CLV diminished by this decision. I think it is easy to imagine this change only serving as an injection of players for a short time period.
Frequently I've seen people kick around the idea of a Pokémon Hall of Fame. I imagine that as something that would lead to increased Customer Lifetime Value: players aspiring to be known as one of the best ever. As players like Pooka, Ness, and Yuta have repeated success, other players would have to play catch-up. Really though, if someone wants to make a separate thread about this, I understand, but let's not clog this thread with debate over tangential solutions/alternatives.
It seems that we've hit the point in the conversation about Customer Lifetime Value (CLV).
The assumption or research based conclusion it seems TPCi has come to is this:
1) A Junior or Senior will be more likely to continue playing the Pokémon Trading Card Game based on winning a Travel Stipend than a Masters Division competitor.
2) The money made in the future from the date of a player receiving a Travel Award increases the younger a winning player is.
3) Age and success at Regionals or the ability to travel to Nationals are the primary factors in whether or not players continue to play the Pokémon Trading Card Game. Since Pokémon cannot change someone's age, they will increase the impact of success at Regionals or the likelihood of someone's ability to travel to Nationals.
I believe that players who age up will have their CLV diminished by this decision. I think it is easy to imagine this change only serving as an injection of players for a short time period.
Frequently I've seen people kick around the idea of a Pokémon Hall of Fame. I imagine that as something that would lead to increased Customer Lifetime Value: players aspiring to be known as one of the best ever. As players like Pooka, Ness, and Yuta have repeated success, other players would have to play catch-up. Really though, if someone wants to make a separate thread about this, I understand, but let's not clog this thread with debate over tangential solutions/alternatives.
psychup2034
New Member
I acknowledge that many things are logical.
For example, robbery is sometimes logical, because if the robber is successful, he will get a nice payout for his efforts. However, robbery is unfair.
Another example is the $0 stipend for Masters T2-T4. This is logical, because if the juniors/seniors win travel stipends, their parents are likely to spend more money. However, this is unfair.
Do you know what else is logical? Juniors and Seniors play Pokemon until they are 15, then they/their parents realize that prize support for Masters is really bad compared to Juniors/Seniors, and leave the game. That also sounds pretty logical. Just because something is logical, it doesn't make it right, nor does "being logical" automatically make something a good idea.
By your own admission, "The Pokémon Company cannot track how much you are buying individually." As others have said before me, the Juniors/Seniors whose parents are buying a vast majority of the cards are not the same Juniors/Seniors who are playing competitively.
It costs a lot of money to get to events like regionals... I want just as good of a prize as a junior or senior! If i top 4 and my brother does the same thing but he gets 500$ and i dont I will be proud of him ect. But ill also be jealous that we both did the same thing (top 4ing masters may be harder even) and he got $500 and i didnt... Just doesnt seem fair at all... Also the people who are going to win in juniors / seniors will not be the new players just starting out lol. It will be the be more experienced juniors / seniors who are already going to everything anyways who will win the prize money... Granted yes, the prize money could help financially, but $500 will help anyone in some way! Why exclude the masters from this prize increase! After all we are the majority.
Victory Bell
Member
Right now we see a business not rewarding the people with real lifetime value. Masters. After all, hOw long have most tournament winners been playing? Outside of random little kids who love pokemon, these hardcore players (regardless of division) are the single most CONSISTENT income tpci probably has. I dont buy some of the stuff floating around about how most masters buy on the secondary market (i dont, and most of my friends don't except for things like black Rayquaza) The most consistent master winners have been playing longer than many juniors have even been alive! These younger players certainly have tremendous long term value, but how many long time players do they expect this strategy will produce? Just because a junior goes to nationals one year on travel award doesn't mean they will continue to go.... Then they hit an awkward teen age where the quit rate grows huge in that demographc, usually cause of pressures pokemon has no control of. Risky marketing if you ask me. Most winners at regionals, even younger ones are already in contention to win the event. And are already spending what Pokemon wants. These are the future long term players. No random senior or junior is going to win regionals. I have to be brutally honest. 90% of the time, the top cut players probably are already spending enough on Pokemon to be hooked, at least for a while until they hit that transitional teen age where players tend to be most likely to grow out of it. Most likely, the winner of regionals, or at least 3 out of 4 kids in top cut, already spend what Pokemon hopes to gain from their new award system. In my opinion.
MrMeches
New Member
One more thought... was it considered to make the travel stipends more towards Minors as opposed to cancelling out those minors that play in the Masters Division?
Could a statement not be made in the Prize support tat All Minors (under the age of 18) will receive a Travel Award if they finish in the Top X? That way opens it up in the Masters Age division covering the younger of the group if they happen to place 2nd since the Winner is Auto.
Just a consideration. Everything else is fantastic.
Could a statement not be made in the Prize support tat All Minors (under the age of 18) will receive a Travel Award if they finish in the Top X? That way opens it up in the Masters Age division covering the younger of the group if they happen to place 2nd since the Winner is Auto.
Just a consideration. Everything else is fantastic.
Doing that wont change anything. Then the people like me (18) will complain that a person who is just a year younger and is in the same situation will get money for the same accomplishment, and i wont. Ex: if you had two kids and one was 17 and one was 18 and they both top 4'd but one of them got $500 and the other didnt how do you think the 18 year old would feel?
MrMeches
New Member
If you are 18, you're an adult and thus have more rights provided unto you. You have the ability to do so much more than a Minor. Unfortunately this is one of those situations where Adult vs Minor, the Minor should ALWAYS win.
I understand as I have 2 kids, one 14 and one 18. If He wins, then it is up to me to figure that out since he is 18.
It really comes down to fostering the Younger Players (Minor) as the Older (Adult) players can fend for themselves.
Often, an 18 year Old is not going to need a chaperon. A Minor requires that a chaperon in numerous instances.
That is where my delineation of the situation stems from. Minors will need chaperones most of the time so now a Minor Player in the Masters division must have their parent pay for 2 tickets instead of having the offset of a Stipend.
Pooka
Master Trainer
When it comes down to it, everyone posting in this thread wants to play Pokémon. For one reason or another, we all love the game and would love to play for as long as possible. Many of us have been customers since we were little, and we don't want to stop. Unfortunately, we gained various responsibilities and other obligations in life as we grew up. So, now we have to choose how to use our limited free time. As much as it seems "greedy" or "selfish" to some, prize support greatly factors into whether or not we want to use that time for Pokémon.
The root of the problem is that all of these people do want to keep playing, but it may not be feasible for them if there isn't a reward; this creates a huge internal conflict. No matter how much you love the game, if you can't get anything from it after dedicating countless time and money, it's not a practical decision to continue with it. Year after year, it seems like prizes are being cut, and it becomes tougher to justify playing. Now we see that new prizes were added, but it's just for the Juniors and Seniors. In principle, this isn't anything horrible, but it's all part of a snowball effect of hurtful decisions towards Masters. After all of the loyalty we have shown throughout the years, it's tough not to feel dejected by another decision that doesn't benefit us.
Since we love Pokémon so much, we are going to complain and argue; we don't want to have to make the decision to stop playing. But how long can you hold on before it becomes too much of a hassle? If events keep getting bigger, statistically it becomes tougher to win. No matter how good you are, you cannot expect to take first at an event with hundreds of people. So, unless prizes are increased, it's going to cause players to quit. Why come to events if my chances of winning anything substantial is so low? Sure, you can love the game, but it does cost money to travel and to obtain cards. Because people are so dedicated to Pokémon, you may see constant attendance or even small growth in the near future if you maintain the same prizes or decrease them a little. However, eventually people will get fed up and quit if nothing changes.
As a loyal customer and fan of Pokémon for 10+ years, I really am starting to fear what may happen if these sorts of decisions continue. Without a doubt, this game has the potential to grow and be much bigger than it is. If these trends continue, though, we may start to lose more players than we gain. While I don't think that 15+ will be eliminated again, it's tough to forget what happened under WotC. If you slight the Masters - the foundation of the game - the results will not be good.
The root of the problem is that all of these people do want to keep playing, but it may not be feasible for them if there isn't a reward; this creates a huge internal conflict. No matter how much you love the game, if you can't get anything from it after dedicating countless time and money, it's not a practical decision to continue with it. Year after year, it seems like prizes are being cut, and it becomes tougher to justify playing. Now we see that new prizes were added, but it's just for the Juniors and Seniors. In principle, this isn't anything horrible, but it's all part of a snowball effect of hurtful decisions towards Masters. After all of the loyalty we have shown throughout the years, it's tough not to feel dejected by another decision that doesn't benefit us.
Since we love Pokémon so much, we are going to complain and argue; we don't want to have to make the decision to stop playing. But how long can you hold on before it becomes too much of a hassle? If events keep getting bigger, statistically it becomes tougher to win. No matter how good you are, you cannot expect to take first at an event with hundreds of people. So, unless prizes are increased, it's going to cause players to quit. Why come to events if my chances of winning anything substantial is so low? Sure, you can love the game, but it does cost money to travel and to obtain cards. Because people are so dedicated to Pokémon, you may see constant attendance or even small growth in the near future if you maintain the same prizes or decrease them a little. However, eventually people will get fed up and quit if nothing changes.
As a loyal customer and fan of Pokémon for 10+ years, I really am starting to fear what may happen if these sorts of decisions continue. Without a doubt, this game has the potential to grow and be much bigger than it is. If these trends continue, though, we may start to lose more players than we gain. While I don't think that 15+ will be eliminated again, it's tough to forget what happened under WotC. If you slight the Masters - the foundation of the game - the results will not be good.
Last edited:
GodBlessAmerica
New Member
"All pokemon players are equal, but some are more equal than others"
psychup2034
New Member
I'm out of thanks for the day Kyle, but you've eloquently hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
Shino Bug Master
Front Page News Editor
After looking over the current prize structure, Professor Dav's post on the goal of the structure, the structures of the past that we at the gym are hailing as "at least fair" and the attendance thread for Regionals, i have come up with a complaint, a perspective an a solution.
Professor Dav made two things clear to me in his two responses which i literally don't have enough thanks to properly thank him for. The first is that the inspiration for this idea and why two age divisions would not benefit the game are in the right place. I do think that the kids should be given additional insentives to play this game. Because this is a good game to grow into; despite its fair share of growing pains. Ignoring all these "outrageous" prize changes throughout the years, i think we can all agree on that. Pokemon is a much more child friendly enviroment than Magic, Yugioh, or any of the other card games out there. We should as a community always remmeber and respect that we are part of something that can give kids a social outlet with competition in a more friendly enviorment than much else i can think of. Nothing quite compares to the charm and energy of Pokemon.
But this system does not attain it. This is my complaint. The system does not look to increase attendance in either age group it is set out to do so in. I'm sure we all remember our first tournament experiences with Pokemon. I know i honestly did not do well. I got a "Bye" in the last round. I thought that my 0-x preformance was so bad i was beign asked to leave (oh how i remember the heartbreaking feeling, and then the overwhelming embarrsement...). I know my first experience certainly wasn't at a Regional event. It was at an event in my home City. Wouldn't the smaller tournaments with better outreach fair better as an advertisment to new players? This seems more logical to me. But it seems like the task at hand was to increase attendance in a specific event, so we'll ignore that for now. We'll assume that Regionals is either the best or most neccisary event to draw in more players; regardless if they are new or not.
So what is it that the majority of these kids who are not players or won't be attending Regionals could be encited with? If the travel stipends were still at 300, i honeslty don't see that affecting any players decision to come to the event. Because this is aimed at the competitve players, who have the best shot at making these exclusive placements. If i am trying to convince a Pokemom at my league to attend regionals with her 3 kids who are playign the game for fun, no amount of money at the top tables will work to bring her tot he event. Especially considering that she has no chance at a free trip to Nationals to bring her kids to; even though she has a slightly better grasp of the game and a better chance at it. No, i wouldn't even bring that up at 500, 300, 1000 or 20 bucks. I'd tell her there is an event exclusive promo and sevral door prizes that her children can win, alongside a truly enjoyable congregation of people who just want to play Pokemon.
Consider that these hypothetical attendees are actually able to even make these elusive top 4 spots in their division. the sheer excitement of having done so well, the players congratuling them, and the card given for play will mean so much more to them than it means to the experienced players who are most geared towards getting the other prize; the money for Nationals. These players have no guarantee of going to the event even if they win the money, but i don't know any casual player who would be able to tel me that their top 4 preformance at Regionals was spoiled by their inability to go to Nationals. I myself have gone through this process 3 years in a row, only once being awarded a 300 dollar stipend that i unfortunately couldn't cash in on because of a family crisis around the time of Nationals. I still wouldn't trade the experience at Regionals for anything. And that's from a competitve player who has these things in mind. To a casual kid who the company is intending to get hooked on the game, that is enough. It truly is enough to just give them a trophy or a medal and a title of "Top x finisher". And they love the packs too.
So what can we do with the system in place to equal the playing field int he areas it matters to those at the top, while still gearing the reward system towards the younger players? I'd say i don't envy having to make these decisions year after year as the people like Dav have to do; but honestly i'd love it. Because i truly believe there is a balance with each system introduced. This is certainly a harder system than most years though. I brainstormed for a while as to which tournament it is eaisest to draw new players to in Juniors and Seniors that gets them hooked. I found that i was torn between pre-releases and Battle Roads. Pres are the easiest for me to convince parents to come to with their kids and play in because there are almost no requirements on card load or experience. Kids come, have an interesting format of the game that levels the playing field slightly as far as deck building goes, and there is nothing on the line. And they get to open 8 packs each! But ofcourse, this tournament also costs money, sometimes more than just the packs would and doesnt really bring in the mid range of players or the lowest range. Those who have played for a while and found a rythm for getting cards and enjoy the modified format or, or those who are looking for a one time experience with a friend where they bring them for the two extra packs and they dont keep the cards. Battle Roads is a much more infectious tournament for these players, who get a look at the competitive game, often with well made decks (either by their own means, or from their friends). And that's where you really can see yourself changing from someone who watched Pokemon, goes to a leauge and is trying out tourneys to a real Pokemon Trainer.
Lookng to take the concept of both of these tournaments and apply it to Regionals: i first thought of just carying over the concept of Pre-releases: Bring a new player and get 2 packs each! Obviously this would be just for the Juniors and Seniors as they are the main focus here. However, this is much harder to pull off, as other tournaments pull off enticing new players so much better and more locally that you can't blame some of the less competitive players for having already attended a BR or a Pre. But there is still merit to the idea as well. Masters who do well love the packs. I know i did. But i never found that the old pack raitos were "not enough" and the packs were never anything that i really had the strongest feelings for. I know a lot of Masters dont even open the packs; choosing to try and pawn them for money for the next tournament. When you consider an exclusive incentive that draws in younger players without drastically affecting older ones, packs of cards are the way to go. So i looked to the attendance thread, to the old systems and to the new ones and found a way to free up qute an incentive that i truly believe is attainable.
How does 2 free packs for each Junior and Senior attendee of a Fall Regionals sound to everyone? It has all the draw of a pre-release ( a definitive minimum reward that is tangible and excites the youngins) and of a Battle Roads (a free event with a great enviroment and a glimpse into the competitive scene). That is a much easier sell to any parent as it removes a certain level of exclusivtey, while still having the amazing and honestly underappreciated rewards of the top preformes of the events. Obviously 2 extra packs per attendee, would have some cost to it that may seem like it would take all the wonderful travel money put into the system. But i didn't just come up with this system by theorymoning. I found the numbers to move to clean up the system to reflect this. I'll include the specific edits to the system below to show what i thought were the most fair changes in order to create this sytem.
Looking at Regionals attendance in the past few years, no event has had more than 200 combined Juniors and Seniors in attendance. Many havent had 200 total and have been most heavily weighted by the Master division. This shows that even if attendance increases, the 195 players that can be supported by the system should be well under the margin that actual arrive for at least the first event. The system aims to equivilate rewards not only per divisoon, but also based ont he value of a box of cards, hitting bench marks that make sense to the 36 pack set up of our boxes. I don't think anyone who has ever top 2'd a Regionals and got a box felt that they deserved a second box (again, i have actually been there and was so excited for a box that getting more packs never crossed my mind). If it seems like the top 4 aren't getting awarded as heavily as they were in the last system, and it itended to make the prizes a bit more top hevay, i will again bring up the idea of a "Hall Of Fame." It rewards players for a lifetime (how's that for a good hook?), is at unsubstantial cost if any and shows some respect to those players who are able to preform continually well at these events. Not to mention, the Pokemon Universe main game series ends with an increasingly epic registration into a Hall of Fame. The HoF would be a part of the official site where you can look up the "top X" preformers of any event from any season/time/division;ideally Top 4 for Regionals, Top 8 for Nats and Top 16 at Worlds. Getting ones name down in Pokemon history on the official site would be adervtising, incentive and a sign of respect, with no real down side. Codes to the official online program are also an easy freebie reward to add throught the placements.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm sure the system isn't perfect. And i'm sure it won't be used. I'm just a guy who loves Pokemon posting on a forum. But i think that while no decision can make everyone happy, it should never be to such an extent that someone's trip to Nationals costs them entirely out of pocket after they make the finals of a Regional Championship that they also had to pay for; and yet be free to someone a few years younger than them for the same accomplishment. Reward the Juniors and Seniors to no end. They can't jump ship to another TCG as easily as we Masters can if the rewards for Top Cut don't suite them. But don't make everyone who wants to be competitve in Masters feel like less because of their age. I have never and likely will never attend a Nationals Tournament. Its just not in the cards for me. But i want 3 other people per event in my division at Regionals to have that opportunity. I hear it's a blast.
If you are looking to skim through this post for a point, here it is: This game has improved so much throughout the years. CP points, a benchmark for Worlds, moving Worlds from these insanely expensive areas and out of the US. We can't hold the people in power in contempt for every single decision that affects the few without reflecting on how much better it is for everyone. But it can be improved. While none of us on our own can device a perfect system, we can rasie our voice to those who can with what they have done well and what they have done poorly. We really need better contact with these people, but in the mean time we need to stop picking sides and bringing torches and pitchforks to every thread with an announcement of something new. We need members to look at the big picture, and mods to not toss anyong looking to move things around as greedy. If you have ideas to improve the current system, or my example system, post. Send the company a message. But consider the full scope of that message before you send it. No one is to blame for trying to improve the game. Don't start calling for heads and expect less than chaos. We, as representitives of the game, have to be focused, united and repetitve until something happens. Because even though this is just a game, it really is our game.
Professor Dav made two things clear to me in his two responses which i literally don't have enough thanks to properly thank him for. The first is that the inspiration for this idea and why two age divisions would not benefit the game are in the right place. I do think that the kids should be given additional insentives to play this game. Because this is a good game to grow into; despite its fair share of growing pains. Ignoring all these "outrageous" prize changes throughout the years, i think we can all agree on that. Pokemon is a much more child friendly enviroment than Magic, Yugioh, or any of the other card games out there. We should as a community always remmeber and respect that we are part of something that can give kids a social outlet with competition in a more friendly enviorment than much else i can think of. Nothing quite compares to the charm and energy of Pokemon.
But this system does not attain it. This is my complaint. The system does not look to increase attendance in either age group it is set out to do so in. I'm sure we all remember our first tournament experiences with Pokemon. I know i honestly did not do well. I got a "Bye" in the last round. I thought that my 0-x preformance was so bad i was beign asked to leave (oh how i remember the heartbreaking feeling, and then the overwhelming embarrsement...). I know my first experience certainly wasn't at a Regional event. It was at an event in my home City. Wouldn't the smaller tournaments with better outreach fair better as an advertisment to new players? This seems more logical to me. But it seems like the task at hand was to increase attendance in a specific event, so we'll ignore that for now. We'll assume that Regionals is either the best or most neccisary event to draw in more players; regardless if they are new or not.
So what is it that the majority of these kids who are not players or won't be attending Regionals could be encited with? If the travel stipends were still at 300, i honeslty don't see that affecting any players decision to come to the event. Because this is aimed at the competitve players, who have the best shot at making these exclusive placements. If i am trying to convince a Pokemom at my league to attend regionals with her 3 kids who are playign the game for fun, no amount of money at the top tables will work to bring her tot he event. Especially considering that she has no chance at a free trip to Nationals to bring her kids to; even though she has a slightly better grasp of the game and a better chance at it. No, i wouldn't even bring that up at 500, 300, 1000 or 20 bucks. I'd tell her there is an event exclusive promo and sevral door prizes that her children can win, alongside a truly enjoyable congregation of people who just want to play Pokemon.
Consider that these hypothetical attendees are actually able to even make these elusive top 4 spots in their division. the sheer excitement of having done so well, the players congratuling them, and the card given for play will mean so much more to them than it means to the experienced players who are most geared towards getting the other prize; the money for Nationals. These players have no guarantee of going to the event even if they win the money, but i don't know any casual player who would be able to tel me that their top 4 preformance at Regionals was spoiled by their inability to go to Nationals. I myself have gone through this process 3 years in a row, only once being awarded a 300 dollar stipend that i unfortunately couldn't cash in on because of a family crisis around the time of Nationals. I still wouldn't trade the experience at Regionals for anything. And that's from a competitve player who has these things in mind. To a casual kid who the company is intending to get hooked on the game, that is enough. It truly is enough to just give them a trophy or a medal and a title of "Top x finisher". And they love the packs too.
So what can we do with the system in place to equal the playing field int he areas it matters to those at the top, while still gearing the reward system towards the younger players? I'd say i don't envy having to make these decisions year after year as the people like Dav have to do; but honestly i'd love it. Because i truly believe there is a balance with each system introduced. This is certainly a harder system than most years though. I brainstormed for a while as to which tournament it is eaisest to draw new players to in Juniors and Seniors that gets them hooked. I found that i was torn between pre-releases and Battle Roads. Pres are the easiest for me to convince parents to come to with their kids and play in because there are almost no requirements on card load or experience. Kids come, have an interesting format of the game that levels the playing field slightly as far as deck building goes, and there is nothing on the line. And they get to open 8 packs each! But ofcourse, this tournament also costs money, sometimes more than just the packs would and doesnt really bring in the mid range of players or the lowest range. Those who have played for a while and found a rythm for getting cards and enjoy the modified format or, or those who are looking for a one time experience with a friend where they bring them for the two extra packs and they dont keep the cards. Battle Roads is a much more infectious tournament for these players, who get a look at the competitive game, often with well made decks (either by their own means, or from their friends). And that's where you really can see yourself changing from someone who watched Pokemon, goes to a leauge and is trying out tourneys to a real Pokemon Trainer.
Lookng to take the concept of both of these tournaments and apply it to Regionals: i first thought of just carying over the concept of Pre-releases: Bring a new player and get 2 packs each! Obviously this would be just for the Juniors and Seniors as they are the main focus here. However, this is much harder to pull off, as other tournaments pull off enticing new players so much better and more locally that you can't blame some of the less competitive players for having already attended a BR or a Pre. But there is still merit to the idea as well. Masters who do well love the packs. I know i did. But i never found that the old pack raitos were "not enough" and the packs were never anything that i really had the strongest feelings for. I know a lot of Masters dont even open the packs; choosing to try and pawn them for money for the next tournament. When you consider an exclusive incentive that draws in younger players without drastically affecting older ones, packs of cards are the way to go. So i looked to the attendance thread, to the old systems and to the new ones and found a way to free up qute an incentive that i truly believe is attainable.
How does 2 free packs for each Junior and Senior attendee of a Fall Regionals sound to everyone? It has all the draw of a pre-release ( a definitive minimum reward that is tangible and excites the youngins) and of a Battle Roads (a free event with a great enviroment and a glimpse into the competitive scene). That is a much easier sell to any parent as it removes a certain level of exclusivtey, while still having the amazing and honestly underappreciated rewards of the top preformes of the events. Obviously 2 extra packs per attendee, would have some cost to it that may seem like it would take all the wonderful travel money put into the system. But i didn't just come up with this system by theorymoning. I found the numbers to move to clean up the system to reflect this. I'll include the specific edits to the system below to show what i thought were the most fair changes in order to create this sytem.
An Edited TCG Autumn Regionals Prize System said:
Looking at Regionals attendance in the past few years, no event has had more than 200 combined Juniors and Seniors in attendance. Many havent had 200 total and have been most heavily weighted by the Master division. This shows that even if attendance increases, the 195 players that can be supported by the system should be well under the margin that actual arrive for at least the first event. The system aims to equivilate rewards not only per divisoon, but also based ont he value of a box of cards, hitting bench marks that make sense to the 36 pack set up of our boxes. I don't think anyone who has ever top 2'd a Regionals and got a box felt that they deserved a second box (again, i have actually been there and was so excited for a box that getting more packs never crossed my mind). If it seems like the top 4 aren't getting awarded as heavily as they were in the last system, and it itended to make the prizes a bit more top hevay, i will again bring up the idea of a "Hall Of Fame." It rewards players for a lifetime (how's that for a good hook?), is at unsubstantial cost if any and shows some respect to those players who are able to preform continually well at these events. Not to mention, the Pokemon Universe main game series ends with an increasingly epic registration into a Hall of Fame. The HoF would be a part of the official site where you can look up the "top X" preformers of any event from any season/time/division;ideally Top 4 for Regionals, Top 8 for Nats and Top 16 at Worlds. Getting ones name down in Pokemon history on the official site would be adervtising, incentive and a sign of respect, with no real down side. Codes to the official online program are also an easy freebie reward to add throught the placements.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm sure the system isn't perfect. And i'm sure it won't be used. I'm just a guy who loves Pokemon posting on a forum. But i think that while no decision can make everyone happy, it should never be to such an extent that someone's trip to Nationals costs them entirely out of pocket after they make the finals of a Regional Championship that they also had to pay for; and yet be free to someone a few years younger than them for the same accomplishment. Reward the Juniors and Seniors to no end. They can't jump ship to another TCG as easily as we Masters can if the rewards for Top Cut don't suite them. But don't make everyone who wants to be competitve in Masters feel like less because of their age. I have never and likely will never attend a Nationals Tournament. Its just not in the cards for me. But i want 3 other people per event in my division at Regionals to have that opportunity. I hear it's a blast.
If you are looking to skim through this post for a point, here it is: This game has improved so much throughout the years. CP points, a benchmark for Worlds, moving Worlds from these insanely expensive areas and out of the US. We can't hold the people in power in contempt for every single decision that affects the few without reflecting on how much better it is for everyone. But it can be improved. While none of us on our own can device a perfect system, we can rasie our voice to those who can with what they have done well and what they have done poorly. We really need better contact with these people, but in the mean time we need to stop picking sides and bringing torches and pitchforks to every thread with an announcement of something new. We need members to look at the big picture, and mods to not toss anyong looking to move things around as greedy. If you have ideas to improve the current system, or my example system, post. Send the company a message. But consider the full scope of that message before you send it. No one is to blame for trying to improve the game. Don't start calling for heads and expect less than chaos. We, as representitives of the game, have to be focused, united and repetitve until something happens. Because even though this is just a game, it really is our game.
PokeMomJen
New Member
Well, the first time I tried to post apparently I took so long writing that I got logged out so let's try this again.
I've been reading this thread and have thus far refrained from commenting here but with the announcement of VGC decreased prize support, I feel I should express my thoughts. And before anyone says "who are you to comment", every player has the right to their opinion as long as it is respectfully and thoughtfully expressed.
For the moment, let's set aside the back and forth arguments over prejudice or equality or who needs the prize money more. By decreasing prize support, TPCi appears to be telling all of its competitive consumer-base that it does not need or want their business when they should be doing the exact opposite.
Companies like Apple have a large consumer-base due to the general positive image of the company and their products. People line up for hours just to get their hands on Apple iPhones, iPads, etc. Why is this? Marketing. Apple has possibly one of the best Marketing teams in the world. And while most companies cannot afford a team to rival Apple's, they should be learning from this example. Apple listens to their consumers, adjusts their products according to the needs/wants of their customers and also where they see a void that their products can fill. They give you a reason to want their products when you really don't need their products.
We've all heard that there is not enough budget for prize support at Pokémon tournaments. Instead of complaining about this, let's see how this can possibly be rectified.
First, merchandise. How many of you out there have purchased Japanese Pokémon products from eBay, another online source or from Japanese friends? There is a HUGE market in the US alone for products that are only available in Japan. Can they be produced here? If yes, great because that brings more manufacturing jobs to our shores. If not, import them and cut the middle man out. Set up a merchandise booth at high level tournaments such as Regionals and Nationals with Japanese merchandise like Japanese-language cards (booster packs, boxes, promos, etc), Sleeves, Plushies, School Supplies, etc. Put part of the revenue from these towards TCG and VGC prize support. Also, the competitive consumer-base is ready for Pokémon Licensed playmats, make it happen.
Yes, I understand that there is overhead and whatnot involved in producing these products, but the benefits of expanding your market far outweigh the costs. And by offering items at certain events that cannot otherwise be obtained in the US, you will quite possibly increase attendance from Pokémon collectors.
Second, PTCGO. Take a page right from Apple's playbook and make it an App. Also, sell booster codes and other items for cash right in the store. Players are already buying codes to play online, here's another opportunity to cut out the middle man and provide it directly to them. Companies make most of their profits from the secondary purchases in Apps. For example, look at Zygna games such as Farmville (which has a player-base that is mostly browser-based) and Zygna Poker (which is listed in the iPad App Store as #15 on the "Top Grossing" Apps List). These two games are totally free to play but they both offer their players options to purchase upgrades.
Finally, hire some player liaisons whose job it is to run Facebook and Twitter accounts in order to keep the competitive and non-competitive consumer-base updated on coming sets, news, interviews, developing meta-game, etc, and to generally keep a finger on the pulse of the players. Any company worth their salt has a well-run Facebook and Twitter presence. Also, these players should be very well versed in both the TCG and VGC and should know the names of such staples cards as "Junk Arm". I'm not knocking fan-run news sites etc but there is a serious need for increased communication and transparency from a source other than people with NDA's that do not allow them to pass along news.
The Pokémon community is one of the friendliest and most helpful group of people I have ever had the privilege to know. My son and I have only been playing for a year and a half and in that time I have met some amazing people. Even those players at the top of this game take the time to make new players feel welcome and teach those who need guidance. They have inspired me to run my own League to teach young Juniors and Seniors how to play. These people deserve more. They deserve a company and a tournament season worthy of their devotion.
On the flip side, the company's employees deserves your respect and your well thought-out, respectfully expressed criticism. Inflammatory or derogatory statements and personal attacks hurt the community as a whole.
I am under no delusions that my ideas are in any way original. I am very sure that countless players have had the same thoughts. I just haven't seen them expressed here and thought it was time to build not tear down.
Thanks for reading.
I've been reading this thread and have thus far refrained from commenting here but with the announcement of VGC decreased prize support, I feel I should express my thoughts. And before anyone says "who are you to comment", every player has the right to their opinion as long as it is respectfully and thoughtfully expressed.
For the moment, let's set aside the back and forth arguments over prejudice or equality or who needs the prize money more. By decreasing prize support, TPCi appears to be telling all of its competitive consumer-base that it does not need or want their business when they should be doing the exact opposite.
Companies like Apple have a large consumer-base due to the general positive image of the company and their products. People line up for hours just to get their hands on Apple iPhones, iPads, etc. Why is this? Marketing. Apple has possibly one of the best Marketing teams in the world. And while most companies cannot afford a team to rival Apple's, they should be learning from this example. Apple listens to their consumers, adjusts their products according to the needs/wants of their customers and also where they see a void that their products can fill. They give you a reason to want their products when you really don't need their products.
We've all heard that there is not enough budget for prize support at Pokémon tournaments. Instead of complaining about this, let's see how this can possibly be rectified.
First, merchandise. How many of you out there have purchased Japanese Pokémon products from eBay, another online source or from Japanese friends? There is a HUGE market in the US alone for products that are only available in Japan. Can they be produced here? If yes, great because that brings more manufacturing jobs to our shores. If not, import them and cut the middle man out. Set up a merchandise booth at high level tournaments such as Regionals and Nationals with Japanese merchandise like Japanese-language cards (booster packs, boxes, promos, etc), Sleeves, Plushies, School Supplies, etc. Put part of the revenue from these towards TCG and VGC prize support. Also, the competitive consumer-base is ready for Pokémon Licensed playmats, make it happen.
Yes, I understand that there is overhead and whatnot involved in producing these products, but the benefits of expanding your market far outweigh the costs. And by offering items at certain events that cannot otherwise be obtained in the US, you will quite possibly increase attendance from Pokémon collectors.
Second, PTCGO. Take a page right from Apple's playbook and make it an App. Also, sell booster codes and other items for cash right in the store. Players are already buying codes to play online, here's another opportunity to cut out the middle man and provide it directly to them. Companies make most of their profits from the secondary purchases in Apps. For example, look at Zygna games such as Farmville (which has a player-base that is mostly browser-based) and Zygna Poker (which is listed in the iPad App Store as #15 on the "Top Grossing" Apps List). These two games are totally free to play but they both offer their players options to purchase upgrades.
Finally, hire some player liaisons whose job it is to run Facebook and Twitter accounts in order to keep the competitive and non-competitive consumer-base updated on coming sets, news, interviews, developing meta-game, etc, and to generally keep a finger on the pulse of the players. Any company worth their salt has a well-run Facebook and Twitter presence. Also, these players should be very well versed in both the TCG and VGC and should know the names of such staples cards as "Junk Arm". I'm not knocking fan-run news sites etc but there is a serious need for increased communication and transparency from a source other than people with NDA's that do not allow them to pass along news.
The Pokémon community is one of the friendliest and most helpful group of people I have ever had the privilege to know. My son and I have only been playing for a year and a half and in that time I have met some amazing people. Even those players at the top of this game take the time to make new players feel welcome and teach those who need guidance. They have inspired me to run my own League to teach young Juniors and Seniors how to play. These people deserve more. They deserve a company and a tournament season worthy of their devotion.
On the flip side, the company's employees deserves your respect and your well thought-out, respectfully expressed criticism. Inflammatory or derogatory statements and personal attacks hurt the community as a whole.
I am under no delusions that my ideas are in any way original. I am very sure that countless players have had the same thoughts. I just haven't seen them expressed here and thought it was time to build not tear down.
Thanks for reading.
Last edited:
ShadowCard
Active Member
It really depends on the location.
I have two leagues. Looking at Legend season...
One is after school on Fridays and the 3 divisions are almost evenly split.
My weekend league, Masters divison outnumbers the combined Juniors+Seniors.
To pull the anology from a different thread, while I will shout "drought!" when it comes to Juniors and Seniors, SD PokeMom on the other side of the US is talking about all the "rain" she is getting.
What I do see in my league summary is that Masters are much more likely to have linked accounts and are carrying the Junior division in making sure that everyone gets prizes per the linked+50% rule.
I think going beyond needing to justify it to yourself I think players like to win...it feels good to win stuff. Even if a player has slim to no hope to win stuff it still feels exciting to be in the run for these prizes and its more exciting the more realistic a player feels these prizes are. The odds of making Top 4 at a 300 person tournament is slim, but far more realistic than winning the entire tournament.
Box of Fail
New Member
When it comes to complaining, I've been one of the most trigger-happy, and yet, I don't really see the problem here.
Yeah, they're discriminating against Masters. The theoretical market of this game is kids after all. It just seems they went here with ideology over practice. Yes, lots of Masters invest their time and resources into this game. Yes, the Masters division at events often ends up twice as big as the Junior and Senior divisions combined. But OP shows that despite all the patronage afforded them by dedicated Masters (and the long-repeated claim that we are the real face of the game) they're still sticking to their guns and making this about kids. That isn't a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, they're discriminating against Masters. The theoretical market of this game is kids after all. It just seems they went here with ideology over practice. Yes, lots of Masters invest their time and resources into this game. Yes, the Masters division at events often ends up twice as big as the Junior and Senior divisions combined. But OP shows that despite all the patronage afforded them by dedicated Masters (and the long-repeated claim that we are the real face of the game) they're still sticking to their guns and making this about kids. That isn't a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Las Vagas area must have a really big masters division for you to be able to say "don't like it, don't play" and not have your PTOs jump in here and reply "he does not speak for us."
If/when the Masters players in your area decide to take you up on this offer, will the PTOs and store owners in your area at risk in venue costs and compensation be on board with this opinion too? Or are you banking on that not happening?
Last edited: