Flipping heads more often with a coin opposed to rolling a dice

[Gwlieksmudkipz]

This thread is written because of people at my league proving to me that flipping heads is now a skill and my new years resolution is to state my opinion with more confidence :thumb:. I'm starting this thread because of a game against "X", flipping heads 9/10 playing shuppet donk. After the game "X" tells me something about how the reason he flipped heads was not due to luck, but due to practicing flipping. The trick was muscle memory. At first I didn't believe him, but whenever he consistently flipped heads with a coin for months to come and his brother following suit, I knew that flipping heads was an art. He went on to explain that this was a loop in the system, as the coin was produced by pop and the cards say "flip a coin" there is nothing that can be done to pentilize him. "X" is a very skilled player and knows many of the top tier players, and I'm sure he's not the only one to learn this "muscle memory" trick. I personally view this as cheating, because I believe flipping a coin is to be random. But I would like to ask the community, what is your view on this topic? Do you think there should be a ruling that prevents this? I think that I should be able to ask my opponnent to palm a dice, but I'm sure there are many better solutions. I'm eager to hear the responses.
-Gwlieksmudkipz

edit: Removed reference to the player's name. It is not needed for a general discussion of the issue. - Pop

 

[Yoshi-]

It has always been like this, worlds 2008 there was a sudden increase of energy removal2 and ho-oh e.g.
But the officials will tell you something like "this is not possibl and if it is it is cheating and everyone caught doing it should get dqed so we can just ignore the fact that the coin system just doesnt work"

 

[Riq]

well i don't think rolling dice wouldn't help the situation eiher. i've been playing gengar since last year and about in every match, usually get 4-5 effective Fainting Spells. How do u do this? Well i always use my opponents dice so they can't say they are "loaded" or what not. Give it a few shakes, and roll to the left. 90% of the time for me, it is a heads.

 

[rokman]

Cyrus and I talked about this a long time ago.

In our matches we tell each other to use dice, instead of a coin.

 

[PokePop]

The big question is "how is he flipping?"

The floor rules require that the coin is flipped from shoulder height and that it rotate a full three times or more in the air.

Is all of that happening?
If not, it's not a valid flip.

 

[Azure Kite]

well i don't think rolling dice wouldn't help the situation eiher. i've been playing gengar since last year and about in every match, usually get 4-5 effective Fainting Spells. How do u do this? Well i always use my opponents dice so they can't say they are "loaded" or what not. Give it a few shakes, and roll to the left. 90% of the time for me, it is a heads.

This would explain a lot. I'm left handed, so the dice always leaves my hand a rolls to the right.

I think to a degree there will always be some technique in randomization, if both players will be doing the randomizing physically using their own hands. If you're following the runes that 'pop stated, and the coin's material is legal, then that's all you can do.

 

[pat460]

Some coins are slightly heavier on one side, so there is a slightly higher chance of getting one side than the other, but its like 49.9%/50.1%. Sure, its there, but really its not relevant enough to matter. Not sure if this is what you meant. If it isn't, you either have an extremely lucky friend or he is flipping weird, and needs to start flipping normally to not be cheating. If he truly is flipping it normally and due to muscle memory consistently gets heads, technically he isn't 'cheating' but its probably like a SOTG thing.

Bring dice and other coins when you play him, his muscle memory wont work on every coin of every weight. I believe you are allowed to use things like quarters, right? Bring something like a 50 cent piece or a gold dollar, they weigh different than the coins he is used to, and he wont be able to manipulate the flip as easily.

 

[evil psyduck]

I thought you could only use coins release by pokemon?

 

[Leaf]

I know for a fact that "X" doesn't flip to where it bounces etc.
Maybe we'll have to start making him roll a dice or something >.<

 

[MadSci]

how many hours a day did he practice to perfect coin flipping? haha
they should just change the rules NO MORE FLIPPING COINS! =D

 

[Cephalized]

He should use cards like Speed Stadium, Wash Rotom, Dialga G lol..

Since flipping a coin is 50/50 you could always take like 10 cards, label 5 of them heads, 5 of them tails... let your opponent check it to make sure there are indeed 5 heads and 5 tails. You shuffle the cards, your opponent cuts, and you draw a card..?

 

[ShadowGuard]

From the Penalty Guidelines:

7.6.4. Cheating

Players who intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other players at the event. The Head Judge should carefully consider whether an infraction was intentional or not before applying this penalty. If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was unintentional, this penalty should not be applied.

Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
• Drawing extra cards.
• Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
• Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
• Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
• Playing with marked cards.
• Lying to event staff.
• Modification of the Card‐Dex to misrepresent official card text.
• Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in play.
• Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
• Attempting to manipulate a random result.
• Stacking your deck.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification

So it actually is cheating and if you're caught you'll get disqualified. The problem is that both a coin and a 6-sided die can be manipulated, even if you meet the guidelines written in the tournament rules. It's difficult to catch players cheating that way, so the judges have to watch out if someone flips heads an unreasonable number of times.

My suggestion for fixing this problem stays the same - use 12 or 20 sided dice for randomization, those can hardly be manipulated except for loading/rigging them.

 

[waynegg]

From the Penalty Guidelines:



So it actually is cheating and if you're caught you'll get disqualified. The problem is that both a coin and a 6-sided die can be manipulated, even if you meet the guidelines written in the tournament rules. It's difficult to catch players cheating that way, so the judges have to watch out if someone flips heads an unreasonable number of times.

My suggestion for fixing this problem stays the same - use 12 or 20 sided dice for randomization, those can hardly be manipulated except for loading/rigging them.

Muscle memory and flipping the coin with the exact same force, at the exact same point in the flipping action, and to the exact same height every time IS NOT MANIPULATING THE COIN. As long as you flip the coin from shoulder height, it flips end over end at least 3 times, and you are using a POP coin released from Ruby and Sapphire forward then it is a legal flip.

Manipulating the coin means to "wobble flip" the coin or physically alter the coin to produce the results you want.

As coin flipping is a part of the game, and has been since inception, you may as well accept it is a skill. How many hours do you spend practicing playing your deck? You may as well practice EVERY part of the game and not just half of it.

Sorry to say but you guys sound a lot like the professional golfers sounded when Tiger Woods entered the tour. They were all soft and pudgey and he was very physically fit. They complained that he had an unfair advantage because he worked out and they were always taught that you shouldn't work out as the muscles would get in the way of a proper golf swing, lol! Enough with the sour grapes already...

The rule states that the randomizer has to be 50/50. That's completely different from your results having to be 50/50.

And 12 and 20 sided dice can EASILY be manipulated by simply bumping the table.

 

[Master Yoda]

as long you flipp the coin in correct way and it is an pop coin its okay. Flipp 99 Heads in a raw and its still okay.

Random coin flipps can be Heads, Tails, Heads, Tails

or

Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,Heads,...


THAT IS Randomness

 

[PokePop]

I'm still waiting for the original poster to answer about the method of the flip involved.

In the meanwhile, a few replies to other comments:

If you use a die, the current floor rules state that ONLY a translucent, 6-sided die can be used. Period. You cannot use a 12 or 20-sided die.

As a judge and not a competitive player, I have zero "sour grapes" to worry about. A coin flip is supposed to be random. I'm concerned if players are using methods that tilt that randomization.

While the floor rules mandate that POP coins must be considered legal, they do not state that ONLY POP coins are legal!
What other coins are legal? Well, actual coins! A US Quarter, for example.
What coins are not legal? That is up to the head judge. For myself, I don't allow the old WotC coins that have a layer of mylar that comes loose at the edges. I don't allow coins that have odd and excesive surface variation, and I don't allow very small coins that are hard to handle.

 

[Ninjask88]

Some physicist or some other scientist job person is actualltrying to say that a coin flip is actually a 51/49 chance but who knows if that is true. The only way that a person would be able to flip a coin perfectly would be if he flips the coin from the same height from the table, uses the same amount of force each time, plays on the same table surface, and plays at the same relative altitude all the time.

I personally prefer flipping coins then rolling a die. I like the pictures on them better then die too.

 

[ShadowGuard]

Muscle memory and flipping the coin with the exact same force, at the exact same point in the flipping action, and to the exact same height every time IS NOT MANIPULATING THE COIN. As long as you flip the coin from shoulder height, it flips end over end at least 3 times, and you are using a POP coin released from Ruby and Sapphire forward then it is a legal flip.

If that's the case, then why is it called randomizer in first place? I think the Penalty Guidelines are clear.

If coinflips were meant to be part of the game, they couldn't be replaced by dice under any circumstances. For RPS (TGW) you're not allowed to use a die instead, for coinflips you are. That clearly says that the only thing that counts is randomness. Otherwise TPCi wouldn't just replace one "skill" with another. It would be like playing some other game instead of RPS for TGW.-

And 12 and 20 sided dice can EASILY be manipulated by simply bumping the table.

Excuse me, but I didn't see someone wo can bump a table without having the opponent realize it.

 

[homeofmew]

The flipping coin thing needs to be better, because 3 full rotations can be manipulated into praticing flipping, like if you strt off at heads 3 full rotations later, its still heads. And I am sure people could time it to the height, ect.

This is why I like throwing dice in the air.

I remember one time I was using hurricane punch.
Kettler: can you raise your hand higher?
me: sure.
(gets 3/4 heads) xD toxi g faints.

but it was a totally legit request imo

the 6 sided dice rule I love it, someone used a 100 sided die once and we argued it the number was an even or odd because it wasn't clear xD

 

[Gwlieksmudkipz]

Muscle memory and flipping the coin with the exact same force, at the exact same point in the flipping action, and to the exact same height every time IS NOT MANIPULATING THE COIN. As long as you flip the coin from shoulder height, it flips end over end at least 3 times, and you are using a POP coin released from Ruby and Sapphire forward then it is a legal flip.

Manipulating the coin means to "wobble flip" the coin or physically alter the coin to produce the results you want.

As coin flipping is a part of the game, and has been since inception, you may as well accept it is a skill. How many hours do you spend practicing playing your deck? You may as well practice EVERY part of the game and not just half of it.

Sorry to say but you guys sound a lot like the professional golfers sounded when Tiger Woods entered the tour. They were all soft and pudgey and he was very physically fit. They complained that he had an unfair advantage because he worked out and they were always taught that you shouldn't work out as the muscles would get in the way of a proper golf swing, lol! Enough with the sour grapes already...

The rule states that the randomizer has to be 50/50. That's completely different from your results having to be 50/50.

And 12 and 20 sided dice can EASILY be manipulated by simply bumping the table.

So are you saying that this is a problem with no solution? If you read Shadowgaurds post you see that manipulating the random result results in cheating. My question is what would be the action if I encountered this at a tournement(Nationals, worlds, ect.)... Am I allowed to ask my opponent to flip a different coin? Because I'm not sure of any way to tell that the flip is illeagle as it follows all the rules of a random flip, and other then the honor system, there is no way to prove that they're manipulating the result. I think that since pokemon is a game of high rewards, sour grapes are nessisary. Say this happened at Top 2 worlds, Machamp hits 4/4 heads on hurricane punch for all 6 prizes every time therefore resulting in the win. I would feel cheated out of the title and try something to stop this. I know that pokemon is a game of skill, but some aspects of the game ARE supposed to be random so newer players have a change of winning, and I would say flipping is the biggest one.

 

[waynegg]

So are you saying that this is a problem with no solution?

No what I'm saying is you are misinterpreting that rule. Manipulating the coin means to "wobble flip" the coin or physically alter the coin to produce the results you want. Those are two examples.

some aspects of the game ARE supposed to be random

The coin is random- 1 head and 1 tail. That by no way means you must have 50/50 results. It still has to be flipped in the correct manner. I don't care how much you practice it, you will never get 100% heads.

Just as a side note- once the head judge inspects and rules that a randomizer is legal, your opponent won't have to use another randomizer at your request unless the head judge reinspects the randomizer and finds it has been tampered with after inspection. I have my randomizer looked at during deck check, before the tournament ever starts.