Greed and Bad Attitudes

[lordholly]

I beleive in SOTG. I think it applies to playing and trading.

The Spirit of the Game is composed of the following tenets:

1. Fun: The Pokémon TCG is a game, and games are meant to be fun for all parties involved. When a game ceases to be fun, players find other things to do.
2. Fairness: Games cease to be fun when players break the rules to achieve victory. A player should prefer to lose a game than to win by cheating.
3. Honesty: Players of any game should strive to act honestly while playing that game. If a player inadvertently breaks a rule during a game and becomes aware of the error before his or her opponent or a judge, that player should make the opponent and the judge aware of the misplay.
4. Respect: Players, spectators, and staff should be treated with the same respect that players would expect for themselves. Distracting an opponent or a judge to gain advantage shows disrespect to everyone involved in a Pokémon TCG event.
5. Sportsmanship: Winning or losing with grace is vital to the enjoyment of a game. The desire to continue playing a game can be soured by players that berate their opponents after winning or losing a match.
6. Learning: Players should strive to help each other increase their Pokémon TCG play skills. It is not a player's responsibility to make his or her opponent's plays for that opponent. However, discussing strategies, offering deck tips, or constructively critiquing game play decisions after the match has been completed helps both participants to become better players.

 

[afstandopleren]

I beleive in SOTG. I think it applies to playing and trading.

It sadly does not apply to people...dang those loopholes.

 

[SteveP]

SteveP: It seems like you're either making assumptions about how restrictive this kind of rule is and/or exaggerating in an effort to prove your point. Remember--it's up to the kids to seek out the LL or another knowledgeable adult to review a trade. Therefore, the helicopter parent analogy is flawed.

A helicopter LL is one who disallows trading without LL approval (or review). IMO, that's too protective. But yeah, if the LL is there as a resource to provide advice about trades, that's certainly a good thing.

Anyway, I have no problem with LL's who do this because there are predatory traders in their mist. But, if we had predatory traders at our league, we'd either quickly reform them or expel them.

 

[lordholly]

It sadly does not apply to people...dang those loopholes.

But it does apply to playing in my league.

 

[afstandopleren]

leagues are not people.... But jokes aside, no one is there to watch them 24 hours on the trades they do. You can't 'control' them outside the league. Great if you can while they are near you on your league. Just not after it.

 

[SLOW DECK]

If someone is stepping up as a League Leader, I am actually have another rule. Do it as you see fit. Run the league the way you want to!! (You earned the right!). If you want to and feel that you need to watch the trades to keep them fair (or somewhat), by all means do so. LL job one is having a safe and fun enviroment, but making sure every trade is fair and reasonable could be hard to do, there is enough to do during league time already.

I just think that human nature makes just about all trades preditory, each player thinks they are getting the better half of the deal.(IMHO)
I guess I could go along with LL making ourselves available to give advise on trades if asked. But how fair is fair enough?

 

[lordholly]

leagues are not people.... But jokes aside, no one is there to watch them 24 hours on the trades they do. You can't 'control' them outside the league. Great if you can while they are near you on your league. Just not after it.

I agree with that assertion. I was rushed before (I had League tonight), but let me clarify my overly simplistic post.:thumb:

What I was trying to say, as a Leader, I will endeavor to promote SOTG at all times during my time at League. As a Leader, my example will hopefully influence the atmosphere of League play. Since the core values are values I practice and teach young players at league, including my son, it bleeds over to all other players and after a while it has an effect for that is the atmosphere of our League. You can not breathe without being affected by the quality of the air around you...

I am a Scout Leader as well. I also coach Soccer. I volunteer. I do not lead by the whip. I lead by my actions. Since I can not control people (nor do I want to), I can at least do my best to exemplify the best characteristics of the game - be it Scouting, Soccer or Pokemon. Rather than lowering the bar to the lowest common denominator, as is so often done in our society, I have chosen to raise the bar and lift peoples expectations of themselves. A simple, 'You can do better...' can go a long way. Granted, it does not work all the time, but then again, NOTHING works all the time, if it did, I would have won that Cities, instead of flipping tails on 2 Super Scoop Ups in a row.

 

[afstandopleren]

I find that a great thing you are doing, there are so many people out there that still lack moral values or even a sense for equality. I hope too that your example rubs off on others despite, as you said, it being their decision what to do with it after all. I know a lot of people from the poke scene who could use a lesson in that or 2. If they'd only bother to look at themselves for a change...

Sadly, the only thing we control in the end is the choices we make in our lives. Where it will take us? Only time can tell because of the ripple effect.

 

[Squidwina]

I just think that human nature makes just about all trades preditory, each player thinks they are getting the better half of the deal.(IMHO)

That's not predatory. That's a win-win situation.

But how fair is fair enough?

When all parties are satisfied that nobody is getting ripped off.

I know that you and many posters above are playing devils advocate, and I respect that, but all the questions about "what exactly would you do in this particular situation" are unanswerable. It just depends on the situation. And the decisions are never perfect. I think we all just do the best we can.

 

[SteveP]

Yeah, I have to agree with Squidwina about predatory natures. Predators are those who prey on the weak for personal gain, often injuring the prey in the process. Win-win is the correct term.

When all parties are satisfied that nobody is getting ripped off.

...and after making a good point, you make this statement...:nonono:

Ripping someone off is the act of a predator. If you really believe the statement you made above is true, then you've accepted the notion that trades are predatory in nature, and SLOW DECK's comment is indeed correct.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that Pokemon traders are NOT typically predators. I suppose there are exceptions, but the harm caused is 1) punishable (ie., expulsions, bans) and/or 2) reverseable (ie., indian-givers).

During league, I don't monitor games for cheating because there's a level of trust and expectation I have for my players' behaviors. A cynical attitude is one that players will try to cheat and traders with try to prey. I don't share that attitude. But hey, if your league has more cheaters and predators, then more power to you for creating stiff controls. If it were me, I'd just get rid of the riff-raff.

 

[Alazor]

Subtle difference here, but what does this whole notion of predatory and non-predatory trading come into play here? I don't think Squidwina was saying that. Maybe what he meant to say was that the trade was fair to both parties. No need to jump the gun.

 

[Iron Savior]

I was conned out of a Luxray GL Lvl X the first time I ever went to a league. My girlfriend, and our friend also got conned by high school kids.

I think it'd be best to educate the younger kids as to what they are trading. Maybe someone to oversee trades, or something.

 

[ryanvergel]

how do people seriously trade cards without knowing their values?

look at a book, or at the card store's prices, or on ebay, or on online stores. but seriously, how do you get ripped off for your Xs?

 

[smacktack15]

They are only ripped off in the first place because people view other people's cards as fair game.

If someone doesn't have a concept of money, you could easily trade a 1 dollar bill to them for a 20 dollar bill, but at the end of the day, how does that make you feel? Now picture that person being a 7-8 year old and you a grown man (or at least a teenager). This is EXACTLY the same, as you could eBay your crappy Level X's for $1 each and some of their better cards for $20 each.

My belief on the matter is negligence vs. taking advantage. If two players are new and trading cards, they might make some pretty unfair trades, but at least no one knows better.

What taking advantage involves is knowingly ripping people off, claiming that a card is worth a lot when it is common knowledge that it isn't, lying by saying their good card is worth nothing (Feraligatr Prime HGSS ring any bells?), preying on the fact that the other party will make a less educated decision, and making sure no good players are around when you make the trade.

You certainly sugar coated your opinion Zach.

I agree with League Leaders making the decision to authorize trading with Juniors/Some Seniors. If you want to keep people playing the game, your best bet is to let them keep their good cards so that when they finally come to, they don't have to start from scratch. It's a deterrant when you can't play competitively because you traded your playset of Claydols away for a SR Articuno.

If you have a problem with the way I trade, the way I play, etc. please feel free to talk to me IRL or via a PM/email/etc.

I believe that if both parties are happy and if we both understand the trade, it is all fair game.

To reference your "attack" on my trades at the Orangeville Pre-Release for HG/SS, lets go into greater detail...

Do you think Feraligatr Prime is worth a lot??? I sure don't! The card is kinda cool but, you have to understand where I was coming from, IT IS COMING OUT IN A TIN!!!. Why should I be forced to trade a Luxray GL Lv.X or some other high priced card for a card that is worth under 5 dollars???

I traded an Electivire FB Lv.X for a Feraligatr Prime and a Typhlosion Prime so am I bad person? No, I am not, I feel that I gave a solid trade (maybe in their favor). A non-tin Lv.X (3-4 per box) for two " about to be tinned" Primes (5-6 per box and about to be tinned). How isn't that fair? Just because you see a card so highly doesn't mean it holds the same value for all.

About Claydols... Yeah, I think Claydol/Uxie/etc. went down in price because they are LEAGUE PROMOs. I don't go to league so I traded for three Claydols off of an adult. AGain, hw is this wrong?? I ended up trading a Luxray GL Lv.X and an Infernape 4 Lv.X for three Claydols (league), five Uxie (league), and I forget the rest (I think some Lv.X or something) but, I believe I traded more than fairly that day.

So IDK what you have against me but, feel free to bring it up next time we see each other (probably Provincials).

Until then,
Peace

~Zach

 

[ryanvergel]

My belief on the matter is negligence vs. taking advantage. If two players are new and trading cards, they might make some pretty unfair trades, but at least no one knows better.

it's definitely an issue of negligence- why is anyone allowing a 7 or 8 year old to work around with hundreds of dollars worth of trade items when he has no idea of monetary or collective value? how is anyone getting ripped off?

if a parent drops 50 bucks in packs, youd think he/she would research a bit for their value before trying to trade them. it seems like the party who is doing the poor trading is being negligent- either by willingly trading without knowledge, or allowing someone too young/inexperienced to trade. ive brought 21 year old friends to tournies. i dont let them trade. all the trades come through me, so they can walk around and talk and look and try to get a feel, then i come in and manage it. same should be done for a child. why is the kid being allowed to trade that valuable card?

its like buying a pack of baseball cards and getting mad if he trades some godly rookie card away because you didn't look up the values, or you allowed him to trade, etc.

as for adults who get ripped off- learn to evaluate your property better? learn to look up the value of items before bartering? get second opinions? idk what to say here. buy a book.

 

[vegitalian]

Personally, what I saw was you trading all the playable cards that you could get off of little kids. I understand if you might want a card, and if you honestly think you traded fairly, more power to you. Keep in mind though that if you trade all of the good cards off of a player, that you probably won't see them again, or if you do, it won't be for long.

Ryan, I understand that it's 'buyer beware', but if people had better attitudes and morals, there would be a much wider player base.

It's not illegal to trade good cards off of people that don't know any better, but in knowing that it is unfair, you have pretty poor ethics to proceed with it. Do we really want sharks in our playing environments? I guess that's for the people in charge to decide.

 

[afstandopleren]

There are more than enough sharks in the Pokemon community and they aren't just in the trading part of the game. People just don't want to admit to it but the bad attitudes are everywhere in pokemon, making it hard for the people in charge to keep it all straight.

So since this already has been doomed to an endless thread of useless back&forwards, I just want to say the following:
The only person that can change the way people are treated and traded to is you.

 

[SteveP]

In my Pokemon league, there are those who compete seriously and those who don't. It's the perfect combination for trading. One side will trade 2-4 less-playable LvX's for one Luxray LvX. If, at some point in the very near future, those who traded away their Luxray LvX's want to compete seriously too, they'll need to seek out others willing to trade.

Is it wrong for the seriously-competitive players to trade this way? That's where I think some league leaders have it all wrong. I'd certainly frown upon someone who is hoarding all the playable cards away from the less-competitive, but besides that, I see no problem with a kid trading away his Luxray LvX for those few LvX's he's truly fond of. Heck, by the time the kid decides to become competitive, the Luxray LvX will probably be rotated out of modified format anyway.

Years ago, we used to get league credit for trading. Now we don't. Is Pokemon no longer a TRADING card game? I go to league to both play AND trade. Let's not be so cynical about those who like to trade at league.

 

[SLOW DECK]

The question is what is fair value is coming up.

Collector Value - Some people really like collecting and want to complete there collections. They are willing to trade value to get there collections filled. The motivation for trades is filling the collections.

Playing Value - Some cards are more playable than others. The playable cards have very high values in league trading. "Core" Cards like Roseann's, Claydoll, Call Energy, Uxie, etc find there way into every Deck. Then there are "Deck" Cards, like Kingdra, Gengar's, Flygon's that will define an individual Deck. The core cards are obviously more valuable than "Deck" cards in the long run, but in the short run, "Deck" cards can be even more valuable as a certain deck is hot hot hot. The motiviation is to make competitive deck's.

Speculative Value - Some cards people think are going to be very good. People can be wrong, they can be right. I know I have bought several claydol's, Roseanne's, Uxies for dollars before everyone realized how important they were. I have also have about a dozen Pachirusu's that I purchased that really isn't in any competitive decks, with my belief was they were going to be core just like SS Dunsparce was. Sometimes I am right, some time we are wrong. The motivation here is to "Get the cards will the getting is good". Buy Low.

Personal Value- What does EACH Person value of the card. It goes to the direction of what deck "THEY" think will be good. What cards do "THEY" need to complete theIR SET or complete "THEIR" deck. PERSONAL value is in the eye of the beholder.

E-Bay Value- First off, it is E-Bay Recent Transaction Values. List Price doesn't mean there was an actual transaction at the Price. Buy-It-Now pricing is good bench mark also. Is this the monetary value of the card that people speak of?. A good bench mark price is the average/median value of the last several e-bay close transactions. E-Bay has transaction cost of a complicated e-bay account, shipping and handeling, and Waiting for the card to be delivered. E-Bay seller motiviation is to take bulk boxies and sell and package items to turn a profit. (E-Bay's seller is looking to buy boxes, sell the cards, and move cards to generate positive cash flow..)

In Hand Now Trade Value- This is a big note hear. Ebay might be a fair transaction value in an open and efficient market, but at League, it isn't an efficient market. The IN HAND transactions that are done at league make e-bay values less relavent.

League Leader Value- What Value would we assign to assure trades are fair.

What is fair, what is good trade value. I will argue that if you had to line up e-bay values to be within 20%, that half the trades won't be done. And the world would NOT be a better place. Determine Value is something that economist have made entire career's, and Value in a transactions isnt' something that is easily defined.

Ebay price says a Feraligatr Prime is worth 3x the price of a Jumpluff HGSS, but does that make a Jumpluff for a Ferrilgator a bad trade? If I was making a Jumpluff deck, I would be willing to do that trade. In pre-releases and box we probably did the equivalent of 100 packs only grabbed 2 Jumpluff's, and 4 Ferraligatr PRIME. Does that mean I have to get someone to agree to trade me 3 Jumpluff's for 1 Feraligatr. (Of course not we all say... but were is the line drawn?)

What is Fair Value. ... That is the slippery slope we talk off. (Ditto everyone on True Preditory(Pressuring) Traders.)

 

[P_A]

I'm sort of torn by this subject. Personally I see both sides - as I will demonstrate later.

For starters, I don't ever recommend that wolves be set loose among the sheep. I have had many compliments by parents and older siblings when young people ask about trades, and I advise them. However, I don't consider myself to know all the ins and outs about cards and their value, just a good idea. I personally have given good trades and bad trades in retrospect, but overwealmingly I have tried to give fair compensation to the best of my knowledge, in any trade I do. I have given away so many cards for "a smile" that some people seem to know exactly when and how to ask, and what to ask for!

At one of my latest prereleases, I was asked to trade a certain card for one of a person's cards. I mentioned that since he just got the card in the prerelease, that particular card he wanted to trade may be worth more than just one card, so I offered him more than he asked for. We made the deal, then went about doing other things. About 1/2 hour later, the young fellow (teenager - not quite a man) asked if he could have his card back, and produced the cards that used to be mine from his pocket. I cringed. I had to say no. In a normal circumstance, I would consider the request, but if I did trade back it would be with complaint, yet I'd still do it. However with not knowing what all was in his pocket with the cards, from what I saw, I couldn't in all conscience trade back. I later explained why. Was he content with the original trade? At the time, I'd have to say yes. I could tell he was quite happy to receive more cards than he was trading away. Yet he must have thought that having a good card from a new set in hand might be better than 3 older cards even if they were Lv X's. I guarantee that I went out of my way to make sure he was happy with the original trade, yet later had second thoughts.

Moral of the story? Well, I'd say that trading is an art which you learn from experience. Not all your trades are good, not all your trades will be bad. If you have the opinion that other people matter as well as yourself, you will try to be equitable in your trades. However some have not learned that, and feel it's fun to fleece the sheep - perhaps even some in this thread. It will always happen in this system of things. It's probably wise to oversee cross age trading, until it can be determined what sort of traders each of the parties is like. If I ever get complaints about certain traders, I investigate and watch them all the more, but again, I certainly can't be in all places at all times. Parents and older siblings must share a bit of the responsibility as well. If we all have a good attitude towards our neighbor, perhaps that would be a start.