Houndoom against Gothitelle
- Thread starter PNOV
- Start date
simply put, no. houndoom takes a flip on your end and another flip on their end in order to knock it out or say goodbye to any chance of winning. and you'd have to play a "pyramid" of houndoom, 2-1. with this format you can't have surprise techs come out the same turn and change the game there and then, you have to show you have the tech and hope your opponent can't ko it and then evolve it next turn.
magby takes an attack and two turns. what's to stop them from simply using catcher on the pokemon you're going to use to knock out the goth? you'd need a counter that same turn not next turn. i've given this thought and burn isn't the best way to go. poison seems a little easier to pull off. venomoth lets you flip for poison, heads you are, tails i am. if you flip tails and poison yourself, were you really gonna live if you hadn't been poisoned anyway? most likely not. but a heads can be amazing. the other choice would be roserade, attach a rainbow or a psychic energy and you have the auto poison but at the cost of your attachment for the turn. pick your poison. flip or absolute with using your attachment...
butlerforhire
New Member
Best unintentional (at least I assume it was unintentional) pun I've seen in a while. Haha.
Roserade is probably the best 'status effect counter' for Gothitelle since it requires no flips, but it is only going to work in decks with Rainbow and/or psychic energy, which severely limits its usefulness. The decks that could most easily run it wouldn't need it to beat Gothitelle anyway (mirror, Mew lock). The Catcher issue is also very real.
Magby works. You only need 1 of 2 coin flips to hit tails.
You use Magby to burn their active. If they flip tails, then they'll move the 20 damage off, no issue. That's not the flip we care about. They hit whatever they want for knockout, let's say. Both ZPST and Tyram can swarm attackers, so you have something that can hit for 120. Going IN to your turn, they flip for burn damage (FLIP #1) If they hit tails, they now have 110HP and you can Flare/Bolt for KO. If they flip heads, you still go ahead and hit them for 120. Assuming the previous flip was heads, they now have to flip agains for burn. (FLIP #2) If they hit tails, they die of burn damage. So to survive, they need two heads: 25%.
But even if they hit both heads, they're still burned until they retreat (most variants use serperior or something else a a tech, very little metagross and dodrio running about) so you can keep on trying as much as you need to.
Probability of burn offing them in the Xth flip:
1: 50%
2: 75%
3: 87.5%
4: 93.75%
5: 96.88%
x: ((2^x)-1))/(2^x) * 100
You use Magby to burn their active. If they flip tails, then they'll move the 20 damage off, no issue. That's not the flip we care about. They hit whatever they want for knockout, let's say. Both ZPST and Tyram can swarm attackers, so you have something that can hit for 120. Going IN to your turn, they flip for burn damage (FLIP #1) If they hit tails, they now have 110HP and you can Flare/Bolt for KO. If they flip heads, you still go ahead and hit them for 120. Assuming the previous flip was heads, they now have to flip agains for burn. (FLIP #2) If they hit tails, they die of burn damage. So to survive, they need two heads: 25%.
But even if they hit both heads, they're still burned until they retreat (most variants use serperior or something else a a tech, very little metagross and dodrio running about) so you can keep on trying as much as you need to.
Probability of burn offing them in the Xth flip:
1: 50%
2: 75%
3: 87.5%
4: 93.75%
5: 96.88%
x: ((2^x)-1))/(2^x) * 100
well that's nice but to be honest, my area has already solved that problem, they do run dodrio. simply put, you need a same turn counter not a high probability counter. you need it to be 100% turn one, not xth turn. I really am surprised to see the percent chance of magby, honestly. but you fail to acknowledge that your opponent also factors in this. they're not just gonna stay there so you can prove your equation right.
butlerforhire
New Member
Ditto this. Also, the opponent can simply drop a DCE, retreat for another Gothitelle, Shaymin the energy from the first one over and KO the Magby. Even if it stayed asleep, there is the chance to double Catcher and remove it from the game. Once that happens, the Magby player will have no way to OHKO Gothitelle and the matchup will return to its normal state.
Magby: One card
DCE, Shaymin, Junk arm or Catcher: Three cards
No tech is bulletproof, but I like my trade-off odds.
butlerforhire
New Member
It isn't a trade-off. How hard is it to have Shaymin + energy? In fact you don't even need the DCE as long as you have enough energy on the board after retreating to KO Magby. You also don't need double Catcher if the Magby wakes up. There is also Switch to negate the Burn, and on and on. Twins gives access to all of this.
There is a strange misconception that a KO on Gothitelle suddenly means game over. These decks run 4 Gothitelle, and a good player isn't going to pile 5 energy on one Pokemon, attach to nothing else, and walk right into a Black Belt/Magby/whatever else people are trying to do to hit the magic 130+. A lot of lists also run Jirachi, Shaymin and Seeker to retrieve and redistribute energy. One KO isn't going to win the game.
There is a strange misconception that a KO on Gothitelle suddenly means game over. These decks run 4 Gothitelle, and a good player isn't going to pile 5 energy on one Pokemon, attach to nothing else, and walk right into a Black Belt/Magby/whatever else people are trying to do to hit the magic 130+. A lot of lists also run Jirachi, Shaymin and Seeker to retrieve and redistribute energy. One KO isn't going to win the game.
I know op excluded Kingdra, but since this seemed to turn into a general discussion around counters to Gothitelle; how well does Kingdra do compared to other techs? I'm guessing a 2-2-2 line is needed if they get the lock up, but is it worth it to avoid an auto-loss or does Tyram stand a chance without it?
Scottistru
New Member
Ok, why do we even need this thread? The best goth counter and all around best card is venomoth, case closed, period, hands down, no buts about it, class dismissed etc.
GengarIsBeast
New Member
so with the magby theory... say you burn them and they take 20... they just move the damage. so you really only have 1 chance at them flipping tails which is at the end of their turn/beggining of your turn. and thats IF there stupid enought to keep the burned goth active. honestly that tech might never work
Wow. You REALLLLLLLY need to read post #6 again...
I used the same tactic against a ross.dec with Donphan active. Got realllly lucky and he flips both tails so I was able to KO it with an 80 damage Bolt Strike. Tho this is only a 25% chance vs Donphan, the 75% against Goth makes Magby too legit to quit.
Politoed666
New Member
Pretty sure most Goth decks run at least two Switch and Junk Arm, so not super concerned about Magby. Is it a good idea that greatly improves your matchup against it? Yes. Is it a an automatic game winner? No.
this is entire different horse to beat dead. donphan can't retreat as easily as goth and goth can still play the switch, as where donphan can't.
Yes... but you also need him to flip 2 tails in a row in a specific order (Out of their turn, out of your turn) for it to be KO'd. I think people are confused about Magby.... Good. Let them be.
---------- Post added 10/05/2011 at 01:47 AM ----------
This guy is REALLY confused.
Shino Bug Master
Front Page News Editor
So why is it that: Houndoom ,is being downed for only working 50% of the time but look at Magby, a 30 HP little baby who burns them with an attack which has a 50% chance of actually achieveing needed burn damage, and something different is seen? I get the arguement that Houndoom still has tog o after 2 50% shots whereas Magby needs 1, but how is Magby supposed to burn every Gothitelle your opponent plays when it has 30 HP? >_> Doom sits on the bench, uses a power you can always reuse and i think it has resistance? (its dark at least) and 110 HP. So it can take ahit if its Catchered.
Neither is great, but Houndoom > Magby. I'd use Rade if you can, generally an underrated card.
Neither is great, but Houndoom > Magby. I'd use Rade if you can, generally an underrated card.