Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

How to deal with players that tries to cheat.

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Gwaihir75

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Hi,

friend of mine on one tournament (K32 Benelux cup) met a player that decided to win by cheating. Friend of mine lost a die roll, so he should go second (with his Unown Q as the only active pokemon). The other player (with azelf active and cyrus conspiracy in the hand) didn't accept the die roll and told my friend that he has to start. They've called judge (not the HJ). Judge told that he cannot decide who is right so my friend was forced to start (his english is significantly worse than mine). And he lost (of course).

Is there a way how to prevent such cheating? What is the correct ruling and what a judge should do? How can you prevent abusing this?

Thank you very much for your help.

Gwaihir


I posted this in Ask the Rules Team and received answer:
This forum is not the place to handle judgment calls.
We only do hard and fast game rulings, what is the right way to do things.
We don't cover how to fix things that are done wrong.

In this case, the right thing is for the player that won the coin toss/die roll to go first.

You can start a topic in either News & Gossip or Cards to discuss what went wrong and how it should be handled.

Obviously, the first thing is that the player(s) are allowed to appeal any ruling to the Head Judge.
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What is your way to solve such unfair play?

Discuss!


tyvm

Gwaihir
 
If you don't agree with the call that a judge makes, you can call the head judge. The ruling/decision the head judges makes, is final. And if language is a problem (especially at international events), try to get a translator.

If final outcome still doesn't satisfy you, you can probably send an email with a complaint to TPCi afterwards.
 
Ok, but anyway if judge comes and one sided says that opponent is right, thats ridiculously unfair, isnt it ?

What about re-flip with judge attendance ?
 
Charlie1322 said:
Ok, but anyway if judge comes and one sided says that opponent is right, thats ridiculously unfair, isnt it ?

What about re-flip with judge attendance ?
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Which is why you would call over the head judge to handle the dispute. There shouldn't be a re-flip once both players have agreed on the outcome of the flip.
 
I always carry a little rule book with me at tournaments. If the judge makes a wrong call, you can show him the rule book, which (in this case) states: "The player who wins the flip goes first."
 
Pikabruce said:
I always carry a little rule book with me at tournaments. If the judge makes a wrong call, you can show him the rule book, which (in this case) states: "The player who wins the flip goes first."
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Nice, but opponent which won flip, said false - that he didnt win flip. What do you show from rules book to called judge to this argument ?
 
You're not going to get the answer you want here. This is all hearsay (My friend said my opponent said the judge said), and isn't even half the story. There's nothing we can do about changing the outcome, and this isn't a situation where we can say "This is the right, magical action that fixes this problem".

If your friend is that worried about cheating, he needs to send an email to tpci, not have a friend post on the 'gym.
 
ShuckleLVX said:
You're not going to get the answer you want here. This is all hearsay (My friend said my opponent said the judge said), and isn't even half the story. There's nothing we can do about changing the outcome, and this isn't a situation where we can say "This is the right, magical action that fixes this problem".

If your friend is that worried about cheating, he needs to send an email to tpci, not have a friend post on the 'gym.
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OP isn't asking anyone to fix it, he's just asking what can you do in a situation such as this when an opponent lies to a judge about what's happened in the game.

In this particular situation, I suppose all a judge could do is call a re-flip, there's no way of knowing who is in the right unless you are there watching it.
 
More than likely, the players will continue to go up the ladder until a Judge orders a re-roll.

Did the player object before, or after the Pokemon were flipped over?
 
This is a very tricky situation where I don't think you're friend would have gotten the answer he wanted in ANY scenario. Without a judge having seen the situation when it occurred, there's no way for the judge to say which player is telling the truth. Bullados is taking it a step in the right direction, but even a re-roll gives the die one more chance to come up in the opponent's favor.

That's a benefit of coins, not as easily agitated into another result.
 
Prime said:
there's no way for the judge to say which player is telling the truth
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Ok, but judge gotta says something, not "whatever, do what you want".

Anyway here it isnt about whos friend was in this situation, take it, like you are in it.

Simply scenario :

You tell heads, your opponent rolls and rolls tail, so he should start. After this you flip over your unown q, that is your only pokemen you have and your opponetn says you with smile on his face - so go on, you start.

Then you will call judge, say him this story and judge says : "Idk what was happen here, I didnt see your roll, so you start, cuz your opponent says it".

Why judge here should says here that opponent is right instead of any try to fix this problem ? Just one sided, you go, your opponent says it.

It looks like everyones opponent (who cheats int this situation BTW) is right.

IMHO is this totaly ridiculous.

And posts in this topic like :

"You're not going to get the answer you want here. This is all hearsay (My friend said my opponent said the judge said), and isn't even half the story. There's nothing we can do about changing the outcome, and this isn't a situation where we can say "This is the right, magical action that fixes this problem".

If your friend is that worried about cheating, he needs to send an email to tpci, not have a friend post on the 'gym"

looks like you cant do more that after lost match send some email, that solves nothing LOL.

I would like to seriously hear, what you will do in this situation, if it was happen to you.
 
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Are they disputing who called which result or are they disputing the result of the coin flip?

Before the flip, I would acknowledge the opponent's selection. So, I'd say something like "you call tails." Then, after the flip, I would not disturb the randomizer. That way, the only question for the judge to determine is "who called which result?"

If the randomizer was moved, the judge's question then becomes "why was the randomizer picked up before the result was agreed on?

Cautions or warnings for procedural error may be applied.

This question is important:
bullados said:
Did the player object before, or after the Pokemon were flipped over?
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Based on the latest post by OP, it appears that his friend lost the dice roll, revealed Unown Q and then the opponent "persuaded" him to go first. Going by the given information, this is cheating in every sense of the word. What I would have done is call over the judge, state that I lost the dice roll by calling heads and the opponent wants me to go first after he sees what my starter is.
 
El Radar said:
Based on the latest post by OP, it appears that his friend lost the dice roll, revealed Unown Q and then the opponent "persuaded" him to go first. Going by the given information, this is cheating in every sense of the word. What I would have done is call over the judge, state that I lost the dice roll by calling heads and the opponent wants me to go first after he sees what my starter is.
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Yes, I would do that too, but what will judge do? Call head judge. What HJ will do? I don't know. HJ cannot decide who is trying to cheat (both players can). Can he say "Shuffle your decks and I will roll the die."? Or should he say that?
 
Honestly the best outcome I could have seen for your friend would have been a re-flip with a head judge observing; unfortunately unless someone was watching as well, your friend had no way of proving or disproving his point against a cheater as both player's words are taken at face value, so it would be his word against his word/lie.
 
Also, if multiple people start having this problem with this same person, the judges will start to catch on and they will come to a point where they won't believe him. If a judge gets called over many times for something like cheating, that player's credibility will be shot, and he shouldn't be able to cheat any more after a few times of being accused of these actions.
 
Charlie1322 said:
"You're not going to get the answer you want here. This is all hearsay (My friend said my opponent said the judge said), and isn't even half the story. There's nothing we can do about changing the outcome, and this isn't a situation where we can say "This is the right, magical action that fixes this problem".

If your friend is that worried about cheating, he needs to send an email to tpci, not have a friend post on the 'gym"

looks like you cant do more that after lost match send some email, that solves nothing LOL.

I would like to seriously hear, what you will do in this situation, if it was happen to you.
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You're totally right, you can't do anything after you lost the match. The match is lost, it's in the computer, it's done. If you go up to someone after a game with an issue, they can't go back and fix the issue. The best that can be done at this point is an email. If you want something "solved", it needs to happen then, not after.
 
thunderjolt said:
Also, if multiple people start having this problem with this same person, the judges will start to catch on and they will come to a point where they won't believe him. If a judge gets called over many times for something like cheating, that player's credibility will be shot, and he shouldn't be able to cheat any more after a few times of being accused of these actions.
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This problem don´t have a good solution and what thunderjolt said is proberly the only thing there can be done...

Even if the coins is unmoved the opponent can always say "I said head/tail."
 
There is some confusion about the scenario...here is what I've interpreted:

OP's friend flips, opponent "wins" the coin flip. They flip over starts, opponent sees a lone Unown Q with to his Azelf (weakness) start and Cyrus (energy search) and then said, "You go first." To which the OP's friend said, "No, you won, you go first." They called a judge, the judge sides with the opponent for no real reason without giving any impartial ruling (it was partial because he sided with one player).

thunderjolt said:
Also, if multiple people start having this problem with this same person, the judges will start to catch on and they will come to a point where they won't believe him. If a judge gets called over many times for something like cheating, that player's credibility will be shot, and he shouldn't be able to cheat any more after a few times of being accused of these actions.
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^
I think that is about as good as it is going to get. But, I can recommend a few things on top of that. In that scenario, just inform the Judge before or after (to include the HJ) that you were cheated and, while you realize there is nothing that can be done about it now, you do wanted it document that the player did cheat. This will at least alert the judges to be wary of this player. If it happens again, they may be a bit skeptical to believe him. Secondly, before leaving the table, get your opponents name off the match slip and get the judge's name as well and report them both to customer service. If there is a trend with the player being reported as cheating, he will surely get a very long ban...I've heard Pokemon takes cheating VERY seriously. As for the judge, nothing will probably happen. But, it will be documented that he made a horrible call and a series of complaints against him would surely get his judging privileged revoked.

As for what I think the right call would have been, I would have gone with a reflip. Yeah, someone might have been screwed, but at least it took away the player's claim that he "sided" with the cheater. Even if your friend had "won" the second flip, at least he knows the judge made as impartial of a call as possible and the judge had no real way of making the right call as the judge didn't know who was actually trying to cheat. I can say from personal experience, often playing as an "out-of-towner," that I've seen local judges being way more friendly than I was comfortable with when interacting with local players...
 
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