How to deal with players that tries to cheat.

[Porii Sames]

If anything, both appeal to the head judge and ask if you can have a judge over at the time.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

I would say, if someone's cheating, make sure the other players are aware so they can have a judge watch the flip.

 

[ChaosJim]

I'm pretty sure calling the result of the die roll enters into the game state.

You call heads. I flip heads. You claim you didn't call heads.

I call the judge. The judge can't prove what happened one way or another. Judge calls head judge.

I realize that I will lose based on your dishonesty. You insist you are telling the truth. We cannot agree on the game state. A double game loss is a possible result here.

 

[Jaeger]

I'm pretty sure calling the result of the die roll enters into the game state.

You call heads. I flip heads. You claim you didn't call heads.

I call the judge. The judge can't prove what happened one way or another. Judge calls head judge.

I realize that I will lose based on your dishonesty. You insist you are telling the truth. We cannot agree on the game state. A double game loss is a possible result here.

Same thing happened to me at Worlds and a guy calling Psychic Bind with Misprit. I didn't really want to get to that double game loss place but I felt pretty

 

[Shen]

Well it's not foolproof, but I make sure me and my opponent are clear on who goes first before we flip. After that, I put the coin that was tossed (dice works too) on or next to my opponent's active Pokemon. It stays there until we're told we can start. At this point, when we flip, my opponent should know (s)he's going first.

So if he disputes that, you can explain your procedure.

 

[Charlie1322]

There is some confusion about the scenario...here is what I've interpreted:

OP's friend flips, opponent "wins" the coin flip. They flip over starts, opponent sees a lone Unown Q with to his Azelf (weakness) start and Cyrus (energy search) and then said, "You go first." To which the OP's friend said, "No, you won, you go first." They called a judge, the judge sides with the opponent for no real reason without giving any impartial ruling (it was partial because he sided with one player).



^
I think that is about as good as it is going to get. But, I can recommend a few things on top of that. In that scenario, just inform the Judge before or after (to include the HJ) that you were cheated and, while you realize there is nothing that can be done about it now, you do wanted it document that the player did cheat. This will at least alert the judges to be wary of this player. If it happens again, they may be a bit skeptical to believe him. Secondly, before leaving the table, get your opponents name off the match slip and get the judge's name as well and report them both to customer service. If there is a trend with the player being reported as cheating, he will surely get a very long ban...I've heard Pokemon takes cheating VERY seriously. As for the judge, nothing will probably happen. But, it will be documented that he made a horrible call and a series of complaints against him would surely get his judging privileged revoked.

As for what I think the right call would have been, I would have gone with a reflip. Yeah, someone might have been screwed, but at least it took away the player's claim that he "sided" with the cheater. Even if your friend had "won" the second flip, at least he knows the judge made as impartial of a call as possible and the judge had no real way of making the right call as the judge didn't know who was actually trying to cheat. I can say from personal experience, often playing as an "out-of-towner," that I've seen local judges being way more friendly than I was comfortable with when interacting with local players...

This is nice answer, thx for your time to wrote in <3 .

Well it's not foolproof, but I make sure me and my opponent are clear on who goes first before we flip. After that, I put the coin that was tossed (dice works too) on or next to my opponent's active Pokemon. It stays there until we're told we can start. At this point, when we flip, my opponent should know (s)he's going first.

So if he disputes that, you can explain your procedure.

Another nice move here, but I dunno, after flip even I usually clean the board and put everything on sides, cuz mess on board little distract me .

Anyway thx even to you for your opinion <3.

But I hoped in some easy way how to solve this cheating problem immediately and dont lose game in this point (I believed in some cool rulez :x - mostly insta re-flip with judge observing) but it is probably harder situation to solve, than I expected :x.

Anyway thx everyone for all opinions, I wish you GLHF in your games and not meeting any cheating guys .

<3

Charlie

 

[Lawman]

A tip I see players do (including my oldest son in MAs) is once the call is made, the die/coin is used and then, my son places the die/coin on top of the active of the player that "won" the flip. The die # is not being changed (or the coin). That way, when the PTO/TO says to start, they see the die/coin/marker on player A's poke, they go 1st (unless Sableye gets flipped).

SO, if a dispute arises, the Judge asks the player, did you call H/T? Then they can look at the coin/die on the active. Unless the player lies, the result is right in front of them.

Keith

 

[SLOW DECK]

This situation is like many other SUPRISING SITUATIONS. You don't expect it, you can't predict it, and you are powerless to change it. You just don't expect people to cheat. The judges would be powerless to do anything because they wouldn't know who is telling the truth.

Because it is a He-Said, She-Said situation, the judge would be powerless other than refliping the coin to start (Which is still unfair.)

It would be cool when you registed for an event, tournament software could give judges a "watch" list of players who had prior involvements. Judge has a hard time ruling on stuff that he didn't see, but a "watch" list would at least make them aware of prior incidents. Players with a long rap cheat would obvoiusly get closely watched.

I really don't know what else can be done to bring justice to a blantant cheating episoide. Other than give the judges more information to "watch" players that are somehow always involved.

 

[Box of Fail]

Ask people next to you who may have witnessed the roll. That's really the only thing you can do.

Also, even if you are confident you can't convince the judge, call them regardless. I've been it multiple situations with disputes over things like coin flips (and at least a few of them knowingly cheated) - but I didn't call a judge because I knew it would become a he said she said. In this cirumstance, I should have called the judge (and I plan to in the future). Think of that player's potential opponents; report it so if they report it, the judges will know something's up. A history of accusations is the best tool for catching people like that.

 

[Lawman]

Easiest way to deal with this as a Judge? Simply look at the 2 players and say, if you two cannot tell me who won the flip, I can make it real easy....dbl game loss. The player trying to cheat is trying to gain a quick turn one donk. If the loss is threatened, which they dont want, they should fess up. The game can then start.

Then, as a judge, you can penalize the player for failure to maintain game state and any other areas that you feel is appropriate. It is like the players that cannot agree on what to use....a coin or a die to decide who goes 1st. Are you here to PLAY pokemon or just to argue?? We, as judges, should not have to waste our resources at this stage of the match. Set up rules are set in stone. Easy to follow.

Keith

---------- Post added 02/25/2011 at 09:27 PM ----------

This situation is like many other SUPRISING SITUATIONS. You don't expect it, you can't predict it, and you are powerless to change it. You just don't expect people to cheat. The judges would be powerless to do anything because they wouldn't know who is telling the truth.

Because it is a He-Said, She-Said situation, the judge would be powerless other than refliping the coin to start (Which is still unfair.)

It would be cool when you registed for an event, tournament software could give judges a "watch" list of players who had prior involvements. Judge has a hard time ruling on stuff that he didn't see, but a "watch" list would at least make them aware of prior incidents. Players with a long rap cheat would obvoiusly get closely watched.

I really don't know what else can be done to bring justice to a blantant cheating episoide. Other than give the judges more information to "watch" players that are somehow always involved.

Why should a judge require a reflip here??? The players know who won the flip, one is just lying. Look at the above for a possibly better solution. A judge is not powerless in this situation.

Keith

 

[Box of Fail]

Easiest way to deal with this as a Judge? Simply look at the 2 players and say, if you two cannot tell me who won the flip, I can make it real easy....dbl game loss. The player trying to cheat is trying to gain a quick turn one donk. If the loss is threatened, which they dont want, they should fess up. The game can then start.

Then, as a judge, you can penalize the player for failure to maintain game state and any other areas that you feel is appropriate. It is like the players that cannot agree on what to use....a coin or a die to decide who goes 1st. Are you here to PLAY pokemon or just to argue?? We, as judges, should not have to waste our resources at this stage of the match. Set up rules are set in stone. Easy to follow.

Keith

With all due respect, this will not work. Once they've lied about the flip, they're risking far more than a loss by fessing up. If neither fesses up, you could give an innocent player a game loss (or compel the innocent player to give up and allow the other to go first/ reflip)!

Better to let a cheater go unpunished than to penalize an innocent player.

 

[Aron Figaro]

Indeed - this is a logic fault in the tournament rules to begin with. The best way to deal with this is have a judge start every game (which is difficult) or better yet have an automated Bluetooth randomizer that links into the judge's phone or PC and tells him how every game started. The second solution would require the head judge to have some Bluetooth capable logic device, but would cost very little and I could have this whole thing designed, hardware up, in a couple of days. Heck, I could have a production model ready in a week.

 

[Box of Fail]

That would be absurdly expensive on the local level. If everybody reports when they feel they've been cheated in this manner, the player won't be able to do this for very long. At bigger tournaments (nats/ worlds), there will likely be a witness to the coin flip.

 

[FunnyBear]

In organized chess, the player that gets to go first (ie play the white pieces) is assigned with the pairings. The TO doing the pairings tries to ensure a roughly equal number of white/black assignments over the course of the event. Of course, in chess the starting position is fixed. If we did that in Pokemon, you would go into your initial board setup knowing whether you would be going first or second. Not sure if the cure would be worse than the disease.

 

[putgik]

What about having a section on match slips, so before we start, we have to write down who won the coin flip. Of course that means they should give everyone their slips before starting and at a large event it is not always easy to do.

 

[Box of Fail]

In organized chess, the player that gets to go first (ie play the white pieces) is assigned with the pairings. The TO doing the pairings tries to ensure a roughly equal number of white/black assignments over the course of the event. Of course, in chess the starting position is fixed. If we did that in Pokemon, you would go into your initial board setup knowing whether you would be going first or second. Not sure if the cure would be worse than the disease.

How about, on the match slips, it says who goes first, and the match slips are only given to a table when both of those players have finished setting up?

 

[Aron Figaro]

How is something you could distribute as easily and at a similar cost to a League badge or other small promo token hideously expensive? Heck, ship 'em with a "tournament pack" or something if you wanted to rip people off on them instead of just passing them out.

Following organized chess is also a good way to do it, though it does mean players know who's going first before they set up their pokemon.

 

[ARMondak]

Easiest way to deal with this as a Judge? Simply look at the 2 players and say, if you two cannot tell me who won the flip, I can make it real easy....dbl game loss. The player trying to cheat is trying to gain a quick turn one donk. If the loss is threatened, which they dont want, they should fess up. The game can then start.

Then, as a judge, you can penalize the player for failure to maintain game state and any other areas that you feel is appropriate. It is like the players that cannot agree on what to use....a coin or a die to decide who goes 1st. Are you here to PLAY pokemon or just to argue?? We, as judges, should not have to waste our resources at this stage of the match. Set up rules are set in stone. Easy to follow.

Keith

---------- Post added 02/25/2011 at 09:27 PM ----------



Why should a judge require a reflip here??? The players know who won the flip, one is just lying. Look at the above for a possibly better solution. A judge is not powerless in this situation.

Keith

The only issue with this is the situation where the lone Unown Q player "wins" the flip. The opponent can almost certainly OHKO the Q when going second, so the Unown Q player has nothing to lose by saying the other person won the flip and risking the double game loss. That's why I don't like such an extreme measure being taken.

 

[Box of Fail]

The only issue with this is the situation where the lone Unown Q player "wins" the flip. The opponent can almost certainly OHKO the Q when going second, so the Unown Q player has nothing to lose by saying the other person won the flip and risking the double game loss. That's why I don't like such an extreme measure being taken.

Tbh if you picture yourself as the unown q player, and you had already lied, would you admit to having done so? That would almost certainly land you more than a game loss.

 

[Lawman]

The only issue with this is the situation where the lone Unown Q player "wins" the flip. The opponent can almost certainly OHKO the Q when going second, so the Unown Q player has nothing to lose by saying the other person won the flip and risking the double game loss. That's why I don't like such an extreme measure being taken.

Never said that was the only option here. I am saying it is an option if the players cannot decide how to start the game properly. The staff should not have to waste resources on the coin flip/roll of die IMO.

The tip I shared earlier in the thread stops this from being an issue. No cards have been flipped yet. The winner of the flip/roll has a die/coin/marker placed on their active. It is still face down. When the rd starts, they flip over and start. Just leave the die/marker on that side, next to the active until the turn has started.

Keith