If the right wing is biased and misrepresents facts, and the left wing is biased and misrepresents facts, which one do you go for? American government thrives on controversy, not to mention the fact that Moore just has different opinions than you do obviously. I would recommend that you don't attack Moore personally and avoid having to swear to make your point.JasonthePwnda said:
I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11...
- Thread starter Monkey
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NoTime4LoveDrJ
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JasonthePwnda said:
Yeah, that's right. Posting sources of information is pretty n00bish. Those zeroes you throw in make him even less of a man. Good shot! The profanity degrades him even moreso. So, what exactly is he new at? Making documentaries? Writing books? Those things he's been doing for what, fifteen years? Try researching someone before you bash them just because you disagree with their point of view.
So I guess bibliographies count as fake info now...? Is it as fake, as say, a college paper written ten years ago to present as a case for war?
Has anyone noticed Moore slamming the stagnation of the Democratic "party"? Of course he's going to have a career whether Bush is elected (Not reelected
) or not. He's going to continue in hopes to try and change the way things are done, since he has more clout than the average person. A lot more people than just Michael Moore want to see a change in this country. He has enough clout to give those people a voice. I'm sorry that that offends everyone. And unlike Bill O'Reilly, he actually allows people to finish sentences. In fact, a lot of his attacks are merely printing or showing film clips of the people in question embarrassing themselves. Can anyone else say, "Now watch this drive."?As for "Roger & Me", it was a documentary that few people even knew about until "Bowling For Columbine" came out. It was used to point out how corporate America sucks things dry, and then leaves them to wither and die, all in the name of profit. I don't see how it's self serving in any way, shape or form. He got a tiny bit of recognition for it, so he got a TV series. I highly doubt he lives in a mansion or anything like that.
babayaga said:
No thank you, I already saw Roger & Me last year. Its sad that how GE's greed destroyed a whole town, and made so many people poor. And I hope that your brother comes back safely when his time in Iraq is done! Hopefully he won't be over there for too long, since supposively the US handed over power to the people of Iraq today.
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NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
Anything that makes the gap between rich and poor smaller = bad.
President = good, no matter what. After all, he got elected! That had nothing to do with his brother being governor of the state that had polling problems.
Activism = bad. How dare you question anything at all? How dare you try to change a thing? Unless you're rich and you want to whine about not making enough money, then it's okay.
Sad how things work for some people.
Monkey, like PhoenixSong said, you CAN make a difference. Get out there and help campaign for Kerry. Everyone can do something. A group of like-minded people can make an even bigger difference. Take a few of your friends who are either fans of Bush or are undecided to see Fahrenheit 9/11 again. Whatever you do, though, don't feel like you can't change the world. It's that kind of mindset that keeps the world from being changed. Remember that.
President = good, no matter what. After all, he got elected! That had nothing to do with his brother being governor of the state that had polling problems.
Activism = bad. How dare you question anything at all? How dare you try to change a thing? Unless you're rich and you want to whine about not making enough money, then it's okay.
Sad how things work for some people.
Monkey, like PhoenixSong said, you CAN make a difference. Get out there and help campaign for Kerry. Everyone can do something. A group of like-minded people can make an even bigger difference. Take a few of your friends who are either fans of Bush or are undecided to see Fahrenheit 9/11 again. Whatever you do, though, don't feel like you can't change the world. It's that kind of mindset that keeps the world from being changed. Remember that.
mewsmom
New Member
So disgusted on hearing about this movie
I'd like to see what you all would be saying when Iraq pulled a September 11, 2001 on us. You know it was in the works to happen and wouldn't doubt there's more to come. Bush is only trying to clean up what Clinton left stinking around.
I'm a military man's wife and I feel for all our soldiers defending our country right now, them men and women will give their lives to keep our country the way we all know and not just because they were ordered to go. Many go on a volunteer term.
Honestly Bush is damned if he does and damned if he chose another way to handle the issues. People are just never satisfied.
M Moore is just another over paid unelected politician. Read the reviews that show the facts about his movie as well, not just his version.
Boy I'd like to see how you all would handle the situation yourself. There's not many requirements to run for presidency so I guess I'll be seeing your name on the ballet.
I'd like to see what you all would be saying when Iraq pulled a September 11, 2001 on us. You know it was in the works to happen and wouldn't doubt there's more to come. Bush is only trying to clean up what Clinton left stinking around.
I'm a military man's wife and I feel for all our soldiers defending our country right now, them men and women will give their lives to keep our country the way we all know and not just because they were ordered to go. Many go on a volunteer term.
Honestly Bush is damned if he does and damned if he chose another way to handle the issues. People are just never satisfied.
M Moore is just another over paid unelected politician. Read the reviews that show the facts about his movie as well, not just his version.
Boy I'd like to see how you all would handle the situation yourself. There's not many requirements to run for presidency so I guess I'll be seeing your name on the ballet.
NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
When I'm 34, there's a great chance you'll see my name on the ballot. You know how I'd handle the situation? I'd legitimately ASK the U. N. for help, not condescend to them like we did to begin with. Like Bush saying we don't need anyone's permission to start a war? I don't see how that keeps the United Nations united, sorry.
If the weapons were there, please tell me why David Kay did not find ANY after months of searching? Please tell me why the U. N. weapons inspectors had the same results before the war? And finally, please tell me why they were not used when we were killing their civilians with our "smart bombs" that hit schools and mosques? Their numbers were up anyway, so to speak, right? Is there a logical explanation other than "they had no weapons"? I mean this as an honest question. Please mull over it, especially if your husband is in the military. Wouldn't it change your mind about who to vote for if someone so important to you was risking everything he had on a daily basis for a false premise? I mean absolutely no offense here, but it's an important issue.
Oh, and are you referring to reviews by people at, say, Fox? Or another major news outlet? I'd love to read them if you could point me in the right direction.
If the weapons were there, please tell me why David Kay did not find ANY after months of searching? Please tell me why the U. N. weapons inspectors had the same results before the war? And finally, please tell me why they were not used when we were killing their civilians with our "smart bombs" that hit schools and mosques? Their numbers were up anyway, so to speak, right? Is there a logical explanation other than "they had no weapons"? I mean this as an honest question. Please mull over it, especially if your husband is in the military. Wouldn't it change your mind about who to vote for if someone so important to you was risking everything he had on a daily basis for a false premise? I mean absolutely no offense here, but it's an important issue.
Oh, and are you referring to reviews by people at, say, Fox? Or another major news outlet? I'd love to read them if you could point me in the right direction.
><I>I'd like to see what you all would be saying when Iraq pulled a September 11, 2001 on us. You know it was in the works to happen and wouldn't doubt there's more to come.</i>
It's hard to say what we'd be saying if Iraq "pulled a September 11, 2001" (That phrase seems kinda... eh...). But the fact is, *I* don't know if *anything* like that is in the works... But if there's little doubt that there's more to come, do tell me what excatly we gained by going into Iraq?
It's hard to say what we'd be saying if Iraq "pulled a September 11, 2001" (That phrase seems kinda... eh...). But the fact is, *I* don't know if *anything* like that is in the works... But if there's little doubt that there's more to come, do tell me what excatly we gained by going into Iraq?
mewsmom
New Member
I'm not going to debate the weapons issue with you. There's been plenty of truth, and things don't happen overnight. The transfer of funds and plans with other outlets was definetly there. Sure they may have gotten Saddam but these men don't work alone and they will rise again once the dust settles( America leaves Iraq) and pick up where they were disturbed for so long, unless we dismantle and disarm them, leave the country with enough power and faith that they can live a life without fear or give into the terrorism of their own country.
Do you trust MSNBC for news source? I'll send you a link to a interesting article about the movie. Points out many facts the Moore seems to leave out in his movie or distorts to how he feels americans would like to see them. It's very hard to support any President who is in office when your country is at war, it's been that way for many years. I know it's very unlikely he'll be re-elected due to the current events but it has to happen on someone's term.
Do you trust MSNBC for news source? I'll send you a link to a interesting article about the movie. Points out many facts the Moore seems to leave out in his movie or distorts to how he feels americans would like to see them. It's very hard to support any President who is in office when your country is at war, it's been that way for many years. I know it's very unlikely he'll be re-elected due to the current events but it has to happen on someone's term.
NoTime4LoveDrJ said:
Orange Soda
New Member
On the subject of elections: When you go to vote, please please PLEASE do not vote for someone simply because he (or she) is front-runner against someone you don't like.
Kerry's not Bush. Good for him. Does not being Bush suddenly mean he'd do better than Bush, or, more importantly, a third party candidate?
Kerry's not Bush. Good for him. Does not being Bush suddenly mean he'd do better than Bush, or, more importantly, a third party candidate?
And a quick note about the weapons issue... When you break it all down to it's most simplistic form, there's three potential outcomes to all of this.
1.) There never were WMDs. The administration knew this. They lied to us.
2.) There never were WMDs. The administration didn't know this and went to war based on faulty intel.
3.) There are WMDs. And we have no clue where they are. Nor do we know where Osama Bin Laden is. Plus we've managed to anger even more people in that region (not to mention people all over Europe, Asia and Africa). And we have absolutly no clue where all these dangerous weapons are.
I don't know about you guys, but it doesn't look too great, not matter which one you pick...
1.) There never were WMDs. The administration knew this. They lied to us.
2.) There never were WMDs. The administration didn't know this and went to war based on faulty intel.
3.) There are WMDs. And we have no clue where they are. Nor do we know where Osama Bin Laden is. Plus we've managed to anger even more people in that region (not to mention people all over Europe, Asia and Africa). And we have absolutly no clue where all these dangerous weapons are.
I don't know about you guys, but it doesn't look too great, not matter which one you pick...
NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
Truth be told, I didn't support Clinton's bombing of Kosovo, nor did I support the daily bombings of Iraq under his watch. Let's see which wars really accomplished something... The Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and World War II. There you have it.
I don't particularly trust MSNBC, but I don't distrust them, either. Nonetheless, I'm always up for a read. I know he's taken some things out of context in the film. As in example, the Britney Spears part, where she said that she supports the President and we should also. That happened right in 2000 after the election fuss, but was presented in the film in such a way as to imply that it happened during the Iraq situation's start. Nonetheless, it's the overall message of the film that is important. He, and his administration, are not people who should be in charge of what is undeniably the most powerful country in the world. Regardless of anything else, think about a couple of things. You don't need to contest them if you disagree with them.
Why did Bush contest the creation of the 9/11 commission?
Why didn't Bush want to testify to the 9/11 commission?
When it happened, why did he need Cheney with him? Maybe so their facts didn't cross? Why wasn't he under oath?
Why did the Supreme Court recently rule that Cheney didn't have to release any information about his Energy Task Force until AFTER the election? Is it possible that he might have something to hide?
Now that Iraq is the focus of our military operations (If that can even be said, since they're undermanned), why does Bush say that Osama bin Laden is no longer a priority? In fact, that he doesn't even worry about him? What happened to "Wanted Dead Or Alive"?
And finally, isn't it odd that terrorist attacks are said to most likely occur before the election? Wouldn't that make you want to choose the "War President"? The terrorist hunter? Or maybe gas prices will go down, making you want to vote for the president who "saved the economy".
... It's plain to see, in a nonpartisan sense, even, that something shady is occuring with our highest level politicians. What do they have to hide, and why? I don't believe that this is proper behavior for our government. Can you think about that and truly say that it's tolerable behavior without betraying your conscience? That people are dying because of this? Not just Iraqis, they're our people too. Most importantly, they're fellow human beings, as if that counted for anything anymore.
Simply put, it's disgusting that innocent people die for these people that have more vested interests in business than politics... And certainly much more of an interest in money than our own freedoms.
I don't particularly trust MSNBC, but I don't distrust them, either. Nonetheless, I'm always up for a read. I know he's taken some things out of context in the film. As in example, the Britney Spears part, where she said that she supports the President and we should also. That happened right in 2000 after the election fuss, but was presented in the film in such a way as to imply that it happened during the Iraq situation's start. Nonetheless, it's the overall message of the film that is important. He, and his administration, are not people who should be in charge of what is undeniably the most powerful country in the world. Regardless of anything else, think about a couple of things. You don't need to contest them if you disagree with them.
Why did Bush contest the creation of the 9/11 commission?
Why didn't Bush want to testify to the 9/11 commission?
When it happened, why did he need Cheney with him? Maybe so their facts didn't cross? Why wasn't he under oath?
Why did the Supreme Court recently rule that Cheney didn't have to release any information about his Energy Task Force until AFTER the election? Is it possible that he might have something to hide?
Now that Iraq is the focus of our military operations (If that can even be said, since they're undermanned), why does Bush say that Osama bin Laden is no longer a priority? In fact, that he doesn't even worry about him? What happened to "Wanted Dead Or Alive"?
And finally, isn't it odd that terrorist attacks are said to most likely occur before the election? Wouldn't that make you want to choose the "War President"? The terrorist hunter? Or maybe gas prices will go down, making you want to vote for the president who "saved the economy".
... It's plain to see, in a nonpartisan sense, even, that something shady is occuring with our highest level politicians. What do they have to hide, and why? I don't believe that this is proper behavior for our government. Can you think about that and truly say that it's tolerable behavior without betraying your conscience? That people are dying because of this? Not just Iraqis, they're our people too. Most importantly, they're fellow human beings, as if that counted for anything anymore.
Simply put, it's disgusting that innocent people die for these people that have more vested interests in business than politics... And certainly much more of an interest in money than our own freedoms.
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NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
Orange Soda said:
Sorry for the double post here, but while I do agree, you can't deny that Nader isn't going anywhere. I strongly support Nader, but I refuse to waste my vote this election. I doubt we're going to see a viable third party for a looong time. As with last election, Kerry is the lesser of two evils.
And honestly, not being Bush is a great thing to be right now. Anyone disappointed with the way he's botched the last four years will gladly support the other guy, who could botch things up, but may not, over the guy who definitely will do it again.
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mewsmom
New Member
I don't argue with many of your points. One cannot see the accomplishment of a War until it's said and done. On the issue of us being there, Who else would stand up? Umm, they're not bombing or targeting my country so their not my problem, I think that is the opinion of many other country leaders.
I don't agree with some of the reasons of the current war, but many put their faith in Bush to run this country and whose to say he's not doing the best he can. M Moore is very well known for finding the faults on many issues but yet he's not ever there to point out the good to come from that same person. I'm sure if it wasn't Bush it would be someone else and there will be someone else.
My personal opinion, the person to win Presidency of the upcoming election will be the one to Promise to bring the Troops home. I'm all for the troops coming home, but let's be prepared for what's to come once they are home. It may not be weeks or even several months down the road afterward, but do know this issue has not been resolved. What will the American people be saying when the troops come home and then evil strikes again?? Wonder what president will take the blow or blame of that issue?
I do hope and Pray America has learned from it's mistakes and we have just as much effort in OUR protection that we have in defending the rights of the Iraqi people!!
QUOTE=NoTime4LoveDrJ]Truth be told, I didn't support Clinton's bombing of Kosovo, nor did I support the daily bombings of Iraq under his watch. Let's see which wars really accomplished something... The Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and World War II. There you have it.
I don't particularly trust MSNBC, but I don't distrust them, either. Nonetheless, I'm always up for a read. I know he's taken some things out of context in the film. As in example, the Britney Spears part, where she said that she supports the President and we should also. That happened right in 2000 after the election fuss, but was presented in the film in such a way as to imply that it happened during the Iraq situation's start. Nonetheless, it's the overall message of the film that is important. He, and his administration, are not people who should be in charge of what is undeniably the most powerful country in the world. Regardless of anything else, think about a couple of things. You don't need to contest them if you disagree with them.
Why did Bush contest the creation of the 9/11 commission?
Why didn't Bush want to testify to the 9/11 commission?
When it happened, why did he need Cheney with him? Maybe so their facts didn't cross? Why wasn't he under oath?
Why did the Supreme Court recently rule that Cheney didn't have to release any information about his Energy Task Force until AFTER the election? Is it possible that he might have something to hide?
Now that Iraq is the focus of our military operations (If that can even be said, since they're undermanned), why does Bush say that Osama bin Laden is no longer a priority? In fact, that he doesn't even worry about him? What happened to "Wanted Dead Or Alive"?
... It's plain to see, in a nonpartisan sense, even, that something shady is occuring with our highest level politicians. What do they have to hide, and why? I don't believe that this is proper behavior for our government. Can you think about that and truly say that it's tolerable behavior without betraying your conscience? That people are dying because of this? Not just Iraqis, they're our people too. Most importantly, they're fellow human beings, as if that counted for anything anymore.
Simply put, it's disgusting that innocent people die for these people that have more vested interests in business than politics... And certainly much more of an interest in money than our own freedoms.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with some of the reasons of the current war, but many put their faith in Bush to run this country and whose to say he's not doing the best he can. M Moore is very well known for finding the faults on many issues but yet he's not ever there to point out the good to come from that same person. I'm sure if it wasn't Bush it would be someone else and there will be someone else.
My personal opinion, the person to win Presidency of the upcoming election will be the one to Promise to bring the Troops home. I'm all for the troops coming home, but let's be prepared for what's to come once they are home. It may not be weeks or even several months down the road afterward, but do know this issue has not been resolved. What will the American people be saying when the troops come home and then evil strikes again?? Wonder what president will take the blow or blame of that issue?
I do hope and Pray America has learned from it's mistakes and we have just as much effort in OUR protection that we have in defending the rights of the Iraqi people!!
QUOTE=NoTime4LoveDrJ]Truth be told, I didn't support Clinton's bombing of Kosovo, nor did I support the daily bombings of Iraq under his watch. Let's see which wars really accomplished something... The Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and World War II. There you have it.
I don't particularly trust MSNBC, but I don't distrust them, either. Nonetheless, I'm always up for a read. I know he's taken some things out of context in the film. As in example, the Britney Spears part, where she said that she supports the President and we should also. That happened right in 2000 after the election fuss, but was presented in the film in such a way as to imply that it happened during the Iraq situation's start. Nonetheless, it's the overall message of the film that is important. He, and his administration, are not people who should be in charge of what is undeniably the most powerful country in the world. Regardless of anything else, think about a couple of things. You don't need to contest them if you disagree with them.
Why did Bush contest the creation of the 9/11 commission?
Why didn't Bush want to testify to the 9/11 commission?
When it happened, why did he need Cheney with him? Maybe so their facts didn't cross? Why wasn't he under oath?
Why did the Supreme Court recently rule that Cheney didn't have to release any information about his Energy Task Force until AFTER the election? Is it possible that he might have something to hide?
Now that Iraq is the focus of our military operations (If that can even be said, since they're undermanned), why does Bush say that Osama bin Laden is no longer a priority? In fact, that he doesn't even worry about him? What happened to "Wanted Dead Or Alive"?
... It's plain to see, in a nonpartisan sense, even, that something shady is occuring with our highest level politicians. What do they have to hide, and why? I don't believe that this is proper behavior for our government. Can you think about that and truly say that it's tolerable behavior without betraying your conscience? That people are dying because of this? Not just Iraqis, they're our people too. Most importantly, they're fellow human beings, as if that counted for anything anymore.
Simply put, it's disgusting that innocent people die for these people that have more vested interests in business than politics... And certainly much more of an interest in money than our own freedoms.[/QUOTE]
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NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
mewsmom said:
I don't recall Iraq ever bombing or targeting us, either. Other than hyped up assertions by higher ups in the administration.
Anyone can see that he isn't doing the best he can. He's been vacationing throughout his presidency. No other president has ever spent that much of their presidency on vacation. His is not a job at McDonald's. He is the representative and leader of the world's only remaining superpower. End of story.
I would take the opinion of a decorated Vietnam veteran over that of a chickenhawk who couldn't bother to even serve in the Texas Air National Guard. Kerry would make a good call to get us out of there, but he'll keep with that "stay the course" line.
By the way, I may totally disagree with September 11th, just as much as I disagree with this and many other wars. So don't take this as me being an "Al-Qaeda lover" or anything. But I have to ask, who are you to label others as evil? This is the same rhetoric that Bush uses, and it doesn't make us very many friends. Are all Iraqis evil becuase Saddam was their dictator? And was Saddam that evil to begin with if we helped him out so much? Is he only evil when he doesn't serve our interests, just like Osama bin Laden? In the eyes of the Iraqi children whose parents have been killed by the nervousness of our soldiers, do you not think that they label us as evil? Evil, like everything else, is relative. We're not in the right just because we're America, and we've no right to label others like that.
mewsmom
New Member
NoTime4LoveDrJ said:
My reference to evil was the afflicting of terror on people. I never referenced it to being of a certain race or people. My reference was also to OUR country being attacked just because of who we are. Why else did September 11,2001 ever happen.
I know our soldiers are being referenced as the Evil right now. I believe they are doing what needs to be done to bring that country to order for the future of Peace. 2 wrongs don't make a right but if the people of Iraq were to never stand up to the terrorism inflicted on them by their own leader, who ever would. The transfer of power has taken place and hopefully OUR work will be done. Iraq should be on it's way to becoming a nation of dignity and pride and not be ruled or ridiculed and every other inhuman treatment that can be thought up by such horrible men in power!!
NoTime4LoveDrJ
New Member
I get the feeling you missed the point of that statement.
So once again, let's point things out. Our CIA trained Osama bin Laden. Do you know what that means? It means he is a terrorist because of us. We, in effect, trained him for September 11th. Wow, if that isn't karma for you.
To a civilized country, murder is evil, murder is wrong. When it happens in the jungle, it's nature. My point was relativity.
Which aspect of the American lifestyle do you think they disagree with?
So once again, let's point things out. Our CIA trained Osama bin Laden. Do you know what that means? It means he is a terrorist because of us. We, in effect, trained him for September 11th. Wow, if that isn't karma for you.
To a civilized country, murder is evil, murder is wrong. When it happens in the jungle, it's nature. My point was relativity.
Which aspect of the American lifestyle do you think they disagree with?
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