In Order to Form a More Perfect Union: part 2

[J_Flint]

Why IS there an age limit with the Professor ship? Do they do "stuff" after the tourney ;P?

i wondered that also.....lol :wink:

but really why is there such a high age limit to be a professor ???
i mean there are A LOT of kids who are under 18 and help out A LOT
at leagues and tournaments and dont say anything about it....

i guess cuz the younger people would rather see a kid that they helped
the night before do GREAT in there first premier event........:thumb:
than get a card or something.....

my mom always sais the best blessings are the ones you have to wait for........
i would take a lil kid saying thanks for all your help over a card ANYday.....
~~cuz to be honest once you help your first person achieve one of there goals
i dont kno about you but that a confidence builder and raises self-esteem !!!!

there are A LOT of kids under 18 that know a lot about the game, i am VERY VERY
happy to be around some of the greatest PTO's in the country imo....(they know who they are, no need for name calling)

im jus saying it "MIGHT" be a better idea to lower the age limit for a Professor.....
"MIGHT"
"MIGHT"
"MIGHT"

and if not lower the age limit why not have like STARTER Professors or something....
cuz to be honest it isnt JUST the older people who are contributing to the game........

VINCE: i like the idea of the ness award, that was fun...baseball, kickball etc...

--------------------( COMMERCIAL )--------------------
-Trip to Columbus, Ohio for nationals......$2893692....lol

-Trip to Worlds in Hawaii.......$3278519711242143.....lol

-ANOTHER great idea from VINCE.........PRICELESS :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


good day all:smile:

 

[David's Confused Pokedad]

Out of all the thing's in F_S's suggestions, this was the one that caught me eye as well. So far this year I've managed to play in a total of three Premier events (all City Championships) to raise my rating to a whopping 1612.

In that same period, I've run my own league, judged in 5 City Championships, two prereleases, two State Championships and four Battle Roads. I think I'm actually going to be able to play in the last Battle Road here in N. Texas. Other obligations have kept me from Regionals and Nationals this year.

Quite simply, most professors are too busy promoting the game to achieve that kind of high playing standard. I'd love to play more - I enjoy the heck out of the game. But I understand that if no one steps up and helps put these events on, they won't happen.

S.

Its people like you that I would like to say, Thank you.

 

[Articjedi]

Not bad mcpike, but all of that new prof program stuff you're proposing looks a little difficult. not all profs have the time to maintain that type of devotion and keep an 1800 rating in the game.

As of now there is no incentive to join the professor program, some of the policies in the program have chased more players away from it than put them in (I just realized, I need to retake the test, but with all the studying for my real classes, I haven't had time).

 

[SuperWooper]

Just so you know, I didn't do this:

Please read this whole post before you respond.

But I do have one thing to say...

Didn't Shaw start the original "In Order to Form a More Perfect Union" thread? It's kind of weird seeing the Part 2 thread under a different author's name.

;p

 

[PokePop]

Why 18+ for Professorship?
One word answer: Lawyers.

Little longer: Even though the young professor would not be paying any money to join, or committing to anything, it is still seem as a contractual agreement and under 18's can't legally agree to anything.

 

[J_Flint]

Why 18+ for Professorship?
One word answer: Lawyers.

Little longer: Even though the young professor would not be paying any money to join, or committing to anything, it is still seem as a contractual agreement and under 18's can't legally agree to anything.

100% but u can work and earn money if your UNDER 18 so y cant
u help for nothing if your under 18 ???

we should be able to start SOMEWHERE right ?

 

[SuperWooper]

we should be able to start SOMEWHERE right ?

You do. At age 18. =/

 

[J_Flint]

You do. At age 18. =/

lol:tongue::tongue:

i meant start somewhere BEFORE your 18 ?

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Why 18+ for Professorship?
One word answer: Lawyers.

Little longer: Even though the young professor would not be paying any money to join, or committing to anything, it is still seem as a contractual agreement and under 18's can't legally agree to anything.

I don't agree....15 is a great age to start judging....People under 18 can agree to contractual agreements when there Parents/Guardians are over 18 and they sign a contract. So why couldn't a parent give an ok for this????
I dont understand what u meant by "lawyers"...?

 

[PokePop]

No one said that someone under 18 can't judge.
Many PTOs use judges that are under 18 and I'm sure they get the same comp as if they were over 18.
This is purely about the agreement between PUI/POP and a minor.
Not the same thing, although many other PTOs do use Professors exclusively.

By "Lawyers" I mean that PUI is acting under the direction of their lawyers. That's what they pay them for.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

No one said that someone under 18 can't judge.
Many PTOs use judges that are under 18 and I'm sure they get the same comp as if they were over 18.
This is purely about the agreement between PUI/POP and a minor.
Not the same thing, although many other PTOs do use Professors exclusively.

By "Lawyers" I mean that PUI is acting under the direction of their lawyers. That's what they pay them for.

I meant to say become a professor!!!!!

 

[J_Flint]

No one said that someone under 18 can't judge.
Many PTOs use judges that are under 18 and I'm sure they get the same comp as if they were over 18.
This is purely about the agreement between PUI/POP and a minor.
Not the same thing, although many other PTOs do use Professors exclusively.

By "Lawyers" I mean that PUI is acting under the direction of their lawyers. That's what they pay them for.

this is true......
i have HELPED judged i think 3-5 tournies in the past
2years.......a gym, a regzz, etc......

and people do treat you as if you were
an actual judge...i few times i had to call
an older judge over to confirm cuz some
players think cuz your the same age or younger
that your not right and some jus want to make sure
which i do understand.......

 

[Vegeta ss4]

LIKE I SAID BEFORE.....I MEANT TO PUT PROFESSOR...NOT JUDGE...I know people w/out the being a professor can judge.

 

[Prof Clay]

If the goal of the best players is to increase the number of players in the game, then they have many many opportunities to do so at their local league.

I know there is no formal system to encourage players to go that extra mile by taking a few of the brand new players under their wings and teaching them the finer points of the game, but I am very sure that an informal system is in place right now at your local league...

I am the local PTO, not the local league leader but I do my best to attend all league functions. I do not tell my older players to get in there and help out and I will repay you...that is not why I would want them to do it.

I do notice those who help out and I do notice those who help out with a minimum amount of prodding and I take it into account say when I am traveling and have extra space or have a few extra booster packs which need a home.

We are fortunate here to have what I call "Pokemon- the Next Generation"--We have a large group of young and older players coming in since the release of Legend Maker...I attribute most of the new found success of the league to the hard work of the League Leader Nitia and the extremely accomodating staff at HobbyTown USA, but I also attribute it to the generosity of guys like DeMarion, Nick, David and Tino.

Brandon...one of the best young Yugi Oh players in the city quit playing and took up Pokemon...He told me one of the reasons was that all the good Pokemon players are willing to help him and the others getting into the game get better. He also saw all the cool events we were bringing to town thru OP.

Our regular older players have worked hard to help out our newer charges...the serious ones are going to be dangerous in the coming years.

We have 17 players attending Nationals this year...Memphis is 9 hours from Columbus...

My point is...there does not need to be a formal system to motivate great players to build the game...that comes from personal choice.


If we reflect back on one of the MAJOR reasons the Professor Program was move back was the vast amount of WHINNING by younger players that they couldn't get any cool stuff in the Professor store because they could not get their local TO's to let them judge events...

The Rewards are there for those who chose get involved for the right reasons.....

 

[Krucifier]

I do not play much anymore, and whenever I can I go to league's and have a game or two with my mates and help out anyone who needs it. I would love to be able to take the proffessor exam and be able to Judge events. But there is only one problem.

THE AGE CAP.

 

[SD PokeMom]

as has already been stated several times in the thread: one does NOT _have_ to be a professor...i.e. over 18...to be a judge.

the 'age cap' is not preventing anyone from judging an event, should their TO want them to...

'mom

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

Wow.

So many complaints over a little number.



Mike REALLY understood what I'm trying to say here. What I'm suggesting is a 'mentor' program (You could even have stamped Holon Mentors as promos!), where the best players in the game are rewarded for giving back to the game, (mostly) through helping the youngsters.

It is not a program for PTOs, as they already give plenty enough.

It is not a program designed for 'judges' or 'league leaders'; although they could take part if they wanted to.



The line in question originally said, 'the candidate has reached 1900 at least once in their career', but I figured that was way too restrictive on the many good (but not quite pro) players who would love to give back to the community in this way. 1800 I figured was reachable to anyone who was serious about attaining it.



Really, the 3 most important requirements are: A)Is a good player (this could possibly be measured any number of ways, from rating, to premier events won, to something I can't even immagine). B)Helps at league (teaching kids to play, and such), and C)helps demo the game to people who would otherwise never start in the first place.

Let's imagine Billy is going to league for the first time. Who do you think he would like to talk to most? A League Leader, many of which have no idea how to make a competitive deck? Or some truely great player who can help Billy become a strong player, then introduce him to Organized Play, likely hooking him for a very long time? Who would Billy rather talk to? Who would POP rather he talk to?



But F_S! If A player is really good, They'll do this on their own accord!!

Yes. In a perfect world.

But there is a big difference between should and does, and between ideal and reality.



Right now, I'd LOVE to help in a league, just to see what it's about, and give the youngsters a tiny piece of my skill as a player and deckbuilder.

What's stopping me? Three things:

• Every local LL is someone I don't know well, or has ticked me off in the past week.
  
  
• The one LL who always treats me with a friendly attitude runs a league 90 miles away from me. A 180-mile round trip just to talk to a bunch of kids does not sound like fun. (add gas prices onto that...)
  
  
• Even if I did go and share my insights for a few hours, I don't really get anything out of it. If I'm doing something like this, I should at least break even (as far as gas is concerned). Even some non-tangible benefit would be nice, if it were something I cared about.
  

There you have it. I want to help. I really do. But right now, there just isn't enough in the system to give back to those who DO help.







PS. Anyone that insinuates I am/was/will be high while writing this will be looking at a long ban coming their way.

 

[bullados]

Please read this whole post before you respond.

Thank You.

OK, let's see what we can do with this...

I’ve been thinking over the past 4 days (and trust me, when you’re painting a house 10 hours a day, you have a lot of time to think) about the various shortfalls of this game, and how we might be able to solve as many of them as possible with a few changes to the game.

If I could, I’d discuss this directly with Mike and Dave, but I don’t think they’d appreciate an unsolicited phone call from me. So I’m doing the next best thing and bringing this to the community.

What follows may border on listcruft, but with so many different ideas I’ve had over the past few days, I don’t see any other way to get them all down in an organized fashion.

Please remember these are ONLY ideas, and nothing definitive.



THE PROBLEMS

• The players have very little say in the operations and development of OP. POP does run forums for the PTOs and professors of this game, but those who are primarily players have little or no contact with POP whatsoever.

• I have no problem with this. Actually, I think that PUI listens a lot more than you give them credit for. I see Mike & co on here probably about as much as the old MTs on the old Pokegym. That's enough for me.
  

  [*]There are very few benefits for joining this game in comparison to other games. Think about this. If someone decides to quit Yugioh, and start another TCG, the only real TCGs they have to choose from are Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering. Why would anyone choose Pokemon over Magic as far as OP is concerned?

  Good. I don't want the kind of ppl who play MTG competitively playing this game competitively. Too much, idk, competitiveness for my blood. Give me a good, well run tourney with some nice ppl and have it be decently prized, and we're all good.
  

  [*]The professor program is almost meaningless. Being a professor does not guarantee that you know how to make rulings or judge an event (especially since it is possible to cheat on the test). And, not being a professor is not evidence that you do not know certain rulings. So, what exactly does a professorship mean?

  Agreed. However, you don't need to be a Prof in order to Judge. However, being a Prof should mean that you have the ability to Judge an event fairly. I've seen a couple of Profs that I would not want Judging my events.
  

  [*]Fair play and helpful attitudes seem to be at an all-time low. Anything that would encourage top-level players to help new players would certainly be beneficial in hooking those new players for a long time.

Hogwash. I remember a time when I had two $30 cards stolen from under my nose, as well as my wallet with $40. I don't see stealing at very many events anymore, and every game that I've seen this season has started wth kind words, and has ended with kind words and usually a handshake. Given that many events have pretty good prizes out there, I think that's pretty good.

The last one is the biggest problem in my opinion, but I think that what I’m about to suggest can help solve ALL 4 of these problems to some degree.



MY SUGGESTION is this:

Expand the professor program. It should have a beginning level (what we call professors right now), and an advanced level, which is for only those who give the most possible to the game.

You could (maybe should) have several levels in-between as well.

I love this part. Yes, the Prof needs to be expanded and made meaningful. Cuz, right now, it's basically a reward program for those that already do stuff, and useless for those that don't.

Which brings me to what I would expect for someone to qualify for the highest level of professor:



REQUIREMENTS
Bold are those things I think are absolutely required, normal type are things I think would be a good idea.

• The candidate should have and maintain a 1800 or better rating. I believe that one of the keys to knowing rulings, and gaining a better understanding of the game, is to play at a competitive level. 1800 should be wholely reachable for anyone of a moderate skill-level.

• Never. It took me 4 tourneys to get an 1800 rating. Between that, I've Judged in a States and a Regionals. I have a successful League where the kids beg me for tournaments every week. I'm busy with this game far outside of playing. The only times that I have played was the 4 times when I was not allowed to judge, for various reasons. 1800 is tough to get if you're not playing a lot. I might agree to 1650-1700 as the benchmark, but 1800 is too high.
  

  [*]The candidate should help to run a league at least 6 times a year. Basically, forcing good players to help new players. The good players gain more experience in helping people and sharing the game, and the little kids just may become better players. Everyone wins.

  6 league *sessions*, or 6 league *seasons*? There's a HUGE difference between the two. Quite frankly, the active Professor of the highest calibur should also have either their own league or co-run a League with some other Professor.
  

  [*]The candidate judges 3 or more premier events per year. A professorship is most of all a certificate to judge events (that’s really the only thing it is ATM). This one comes as just obvious to me.

  Agreed that top level Professors should be Judging at high level events. However, there are many Professors who do not have 3 Premier level events in their area. Change it to "Judge XX% of the Premier-level events in a XXX mile radius", and I'll agree with it.
  

  [*]The candidate acts as a Tournament Organizer at least once per year. Again, just adds more experience to a persons repertoire of skills. Not quite as important as the ones above.

  Once? Only? I've TO'd at least 5 events without even breaking a sweat. Again, I have kids *begging* me for tourneys every week. I'll admit, there are some weeks when I just wanna sit down and play, but I usually get off a tourney for these guys. 5+ is a better number, IMO.
  

  [*]The candidate helps demo the game (at a major gaming convention or something similar) at least once per year. Building on the ‘good players helping new players’ ideal, but in a slightly different context.

  This is unreasonable. Most Professors do not have conventions in their area where they *could* demo the game. I'm lucky, living in Chicago. Many others are not.
  

  [*]The candidate submits letters of recommendation to re-affirm their intentions are only good. If someone helps in league, but is a complete jerk about it, then that shouldn’t count towards their requirements. This is pretty simple to understand.

Agreed, completely.

That’s what I have as far as requirements go. It may seem like incredibly steep standards, but I figure a person should be able to accomplish all that in about 16 weeks. The other 36 weeks of the year can be spent however they want; as a LL, TO, judge, tourney player, on vacation, etc.



Still, those are some pretty steep standards, and the rewards for those willing to help so much should be well worth it. The below are only brainstorms, and are in no way a definitive list.

BENEFITS
Once again, Bold are those things I think would be hugely popular, normal type are things I think would be a good idea.

• Extra POP packs each quarter. Probably the lamest (from my perspective at least) thing on the list, but it’s a possibility none-the-less.

• Meh, OK. Change it to extra Prof points (15 for judging/TOing, 30 for League report), and we're good.
  

  [*]Optional Round 1 bye at any premier event. This has never been discussed before (to my knowledge), but I think it would be an awesome idea. A Round 1 bye is a free win, and pads your resistance slightly. Any competitive player would LOVE this, and be more than willing to help in League a few times in order to get this power. BTW, this costs POP no money to implement, so that is a major positive.

  I'm fenced about this one. Why reward Judges with playing rewards?
  

  [*]Access to forums on the same (or close to same) level as the PTO forums. Or maybe just an extra board on the professor forums. As long as there is a theatre where the best players and POP officials can discuss the game frankly, it can only be of benefit to all involved.

  Prof forums are good enough. Mike & co visit them regularly enough that it's fine.
  

  [*]Special items in the professor store. A distinct possibility. It would cost POP more money, but the option is always there.

  If it's economically feasable, absolutely.
  

  [*]Ability to judge matches in a tournament you’re participating in. I think this one is hugely important, probably the second most important on the list. Judges can be terribly overworked at small events. I think finding a way to allow high-caliber players to both play AND judge an event would be beneficial to almost everyone. Of course, any questionable rulings can still be appealed to the HJ. And, there would need to be some restriction on ‘scouting’ the competition; but that is done very easily. Again, this is one that costs POP no money to implement.

  NO, never, absolutely not. Judges should be Judges. Players should be Players. There should be NO blurring of that line.
  

  [*]Special promos, either given out at the end of the year, or when certain milestones are reached. People like promo cards. And, the higher the resale value, the more people like them. :wink:

  k, kool.
  

  [*]Rating Protection. Many possible ways this one could work. This one is very easy to understand, and again, costs POP no money.

  Again, rewarding Judges with Player rewards. Fenced.
  

  [*]Possible Worlds Invites. The most important one. People like Worlds. They will do almost anything to guarantee an invite for themselves. This would be a very effective way of drawing the best players into this program. And don’t tell me that this is impossible because Worlds can’t be of undefined size. There are many possible ways to decide who can and who can’t play in Worlds. As long as the possibility is there, people will go for it.

As Judges, not as Players. I'd give almost anything to be invited to staff Worlds. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the finances to get there.

That’s my idea in a nutshell. Basically, we want the best players in the game helping the newest players in the game, and getting something worthwhile in return. That’s what it all boils down to.



THE MORE PLAYERS WE GET INTO THIS GAME, THE BETTER OFF WE ALL ARE.

On the last statement, agreed completely. I'm just not sure how improving the Prof Program would help bring in more players...

 

[ShadowCard]

Flaming_Spinach, I notice that you don't have a Professor logo by your name. Are you a Professor?

A League Leader, many of which have no idea how to make a competitive deck?

:nonono:

Between trying to fill the judging requirements and LLing requirements, you will never make the 1800 PR requirement. You will miss 4-6 tournaments due to league (I'd like someone as capable as you to be acting LL while I go off to play at Regionals ), another 3 due to judging, and 1 more for being acting To (is that even a good idea, having an acting TO instead of a real one?). And don't assume they're all going to be CCs, you're going to have to skip a SC or even a RC if there's a lot of Professors in your area.

Your also assuming leagues need the help of "good" players to teach. New players don't need super-expeirenced players to teach. Teaching new players is teaching the basics. A lot of leaguers are not interested in becoming tournament calliber, they want to play and have fun (especially if you end up at a very social-casual league where its breaktime with the occasional game of Pokemon - and not necessarily the TCG ). Your services will be of little use at a league. Personally, I'd rather take players who are consistantly at league and know the rules over a judge who is only going to appear 6 times. Only 6 weeks of mandatory asisstance?! That's a joke. (given 1 league session a week)

Because you will have other Professors competing against you to fill those requirements, your only way to fulfill LL requirements may end up being having to start a league. Yeah, that's good, but if you're only in it for the Prof status, you're going to make yourself miserable.

If your not a Professor and have elected to drop the title because you feel there isn't enough reward to justify your selfless deeds, you don't get to criticize the program. The Professor Program is a nice "thank you for helping" gift, like the Prerelease Staff-stamped Luxio card. It's no booster box, but it is a nice "thank you." (if you dropped the title because you felt that you were unable to do any selfless deeds and therefore the title was empty, that's your decision.)



Looking at this thread, with its 1800 Premier Ranking, required judging, required TOing, Optional 1st round byes, trips to Worlds, etc, it sounds like the argument of "elite" players grumbling that their "elite" status and fame in the game isn't good enough. Reminds me of that modest proposal to change the Pokegym admins.

 

[NoPoke]

Most problems are frequently made worse by adding more hoops for people to jump through. Red tape, though sometimes necessary, is rarely beneficial either to those having to comply with it or those having to monitor it. Increased complexity usually increases the number of dificulties rather than reducing them.

[40+ years of experience in a nutshell.]