Is the Level X Mechanic a Failure?
- Thread starter yoshi1001
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Hah, guess again. Just from FR/LG-on, there are 7 sets with 10+ ex cards. And though not every ex card is game-breaking, it's obvious that the mechanic was more trusted and used than Lv.X's. Take a look at this:
FR/LG - 12 ex
TRR - 11 ex/3 Shining
Deoxys - 10 ex/3 Shining
Emerald - 11 ex
Unseen Forces - 14 ex/3 Shining
Delta Species - 3 ex/3 Shining
Legend Maker - 7 ex/3 Shining
Holon Phantoms - 3 ex/3 Shining
Crystal Guardians - 10 ex/2 Shining
Dragon Frontiers - 10 ex/2 Shining
Power Keepers - 8 ex/3 Shining
Out of 11 sets: 99 ex and 25 Shining Pokemon cards. That's an average of exactly 9 ex cards per set, or 11 "Premier" cards per set. Nothing at all like Diamond and Pearl:
DP1 - 3 Lv.X's
DP2 - 3 Lv.X's
DP3 - 2 Lv.X's
DP4 - 4 Lv.X's
DP5 - 4 Lv.X's
Out of 5 of our Diamond and Pearl sets we got 16 Lv.X's - about 3 per set. Quite a difference there...
Edit:
Just for those interested, here are the pre-FR/LG numbers on ex's:
Ruby and Sapphire - 8 ex
Sandstorm - 7 ex
Dragon - 9 ex
Team Magma/Team Aqua - 7 ex
Hidden Legends - 9 ex
Even though the numbers are lower than FR/LG-on, that's still 40 ex's out of 5 sets, or 8 per set on average.
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ShadowCard
Active Member
ericnance, the numbers you have given (thanks for digging up that info, btw) show that pokemon-ex pre-FRLG was a less successful mechanic because there were so much more pokemon-ex. While LvX releases are lower, we see more of them being played successfully. Again, digging back into history:
R&S: 8 ex cards, none of them ever playable. Mewtwo ex, Sneasel ex, anyone? Compare to DP's 3 lv X, of which 2 have already seen wide play.
0/8 < 2/3 :redface:
Sandstorm: 7 ex, only 2 saw wide play (does Wailord ex even count?). Compare to Mysterious Treasures: 3 LvX, atleast 2 of which have seen a lot of play.
2/7 < 2/3
Dragon: 9 ex, only 1 sees wide play. Secret Wonders: 2 lvX, both saw some kind of popular play.
1/9 < 2/2
TMTA: 7 ex, and its only popular ex dominated the whole tournament cycle. Great Encounters: 4 lvX, 1 sees a lot of play.
1/7 < 1/4
Hidden Legends: 9 ex, none see wide play. Majestic Dawn: 4 lvX, 2 have gained a lot of popularity.
0/9 < 2/4
If set by set is not fair, the oveall count is Pokemon-ex were at 4/40 while LvX are 9/16.
So, a wide number of Pokemon-ex did not make its mechanic great, especially when compared to LvX. Looking at the first 5 sets, LvX is doing much better than Pokemon-ex was. It still wasn't until after FRLG that the game was flooded with great ex pokemon, and some of them weren't even considered good at the time they were released. Blastoise ex was binder filler until Delta Species was released 5 sets later.
Again: problem with this thread is that people are expecting LvX to pick up at the point in which pokemon-ex left off, instead of considering that it is a complately new mechanic that is still working its way off the ground like Pokemon-ex did when its first 5 sets were released. However, the numbers show that LvX is doing a lot better than Pokemon-ex did when it comes down to their playability. That lvX may not be working, in some people's opinions, is not connected to their low release numbers.
The idea that LvX are only as good that the level from which they level up may be worth exploring.
R&S: 8 ex cards, none of them ever playable. Mewtwo ex, Sneasel ex, anyone? Compare to DP's 3 lv X, of which 2 have already seen wide play.
0/8 < 2/3 :redface:
Sandstorm: 7 ex, only 2 saw wide play (does Wailord ex even count?). Compare to Mysterious Treasures: 3 LvX, atleast 2 of which have seen a lot of play.
2/7 < 2/3
Dragon: 9 ex, only 1 sees wide play. Secret Wonders: 2 lvX, both saw some kind of popular play.
1/9 < 2/2
TMTA: 7 ex, and its only popular ex dominated the whole tournament cycle. Great Encounters: 4 lvX, 1 sees a lot of play.
1/7 < 1/4
Hidden Legends: 9 ex, none see wide play. Majestic Dawn: 4 lvX, 2 have gained a lot of popularity.
0/9 < 2/4
If set by set is not fair, the oveall count is Pokemon-ex were at 4/40 while LvX are 9/16.
So, a wide number of Pokemon-ex did not make its mechanic great, especially when compared to LvX. Looking at the first 5 sets, LvX is doing much better than Pokemon-ex was. It still wasn't until after FRLG that the game was flooded with great ex pokemon, and some of them weren't even considered good at the time they were released. Blastoise ex was binder filler until Delta Species was released 5 sets later.
Again: problem with this thread is that people are expecting LvX to pick up at the point in which pokemon-ex left off, instead of considering that it is a complately new mechanic that is still working its way off the ground like Pokemon-ex did when its first 5 sets were released. However, the numbers show that LvX is doing a lot better than Pokemon-ex did when it comes down to their playability. That lvX may not be working, in some people's opinions, is not connected to their low release numbers.
The idea that LvX are only as good that the level from which they level up may be worth exploring.
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SlimeyGrimey
New Member
I really disagree with that last post. Up until the release of HL, the only two playable decks were Gardevoir and Blaziken, both of which were completely reliant on pokemon-ex. No non-ex pokemon could even compete with these cards. Swampert ex also saw some play. Pokemon realized the problem and released cards like desert ruins, several safeguarders, and most importantly, more playable non-ex pokemon like Shiftry, Walrein, Gorebyss, and Metagross. After that a much healthier environment was established and there was a good balance between ex and non-ex cards.
Several of the older ex's also saw a decent amount of play for a period of time: Muk ex, Sceptile ex, and Wailord ex all did well at least for a while, which is comparable to cards that have seen minimal play like Lucario and Honchkrow, and I expect more Lv X's that have seen some play this season such as Cresselia will also drop off the radar. So far the only Lv. X's that has continued to see a lot of play is Gardevoir Lv X, and most Lv X's are nothing more than just utility cards; they are far from the central focus of most decks.
Several of the older ex's also saw a decent amount of play for a period of time: Muk ex, Sceptile ex, and Wailord ex all did well at least for a while, which is comparable to cards that have seen minimal play like Lucario and Honchkrow, and I expect more Lv X's that have seen some play this season such as Cresselia will also drop off the radar. So far the only Lv. X's that has continued to see a lot of play is Gardevoir Lv X, and most Lv X's are nothing more than just utility cards; they are far from the central focus of most decks.
SlimeyGrimey
New Member
True, but that's more due to the power of the stage 2's than the Lv X's themselves. GG would have been the best deck even if there was no Gardevoir Lv X. I'm pretty sure Gardy or Blaziken would have been pretty bad if they didn't have their ex form.
ShadowCard
Active Member
You're comparing the playtime of Muk ex and Sceptile ex to Lucario and Honchkrow? Seriously? Even if I accept that, the number of useful LvX still dwarfs the number of useful pokemon-ex in the first 5 sets. I played Sceptile ex at a tournament, but I won't say it was widely played. Honchkrow and Lucario lvX saw considerable of playtime.
ericnance, would it be more correct to say you are disappointed by lvX not as a mechanic idea but more because it does not have the variety that pokemon-ex had, even if a lot of the pokemon-ex weren't very playable?
Phazon Elite
New Member
Not in my eyes. The deck is terrible IMO. Any deck whose two main Pokemon rely ENTIRELY on flips is not good in competitive play if you ask me. I'm not the most qualified person to speak on this subject (after all, I've yet to actually WIN a single sanctioned tourney, and I probably never will), but I still think that using Venusaur/Dialga and seriously expecting to place well is nothing short of a last-ditch prayer to the Coin Gods. No, I do not know what else the guy put in his Venu/Dial deck, but based on what I know about it, I can say that the deck takes minimal skill and maximum luck to perform effectively with it. It doesn't even matter if this guy is good. Heck, if Jimmy Ballard used Venu/Dialga and preached about how good it was (which I am not saying you did, BTW), I'd still act like the thorn I am now.
On a side note, in general, people who play to have fun will be agreeing with you, while people who play competitively will be siding with me (again, that's in general, and there will be exceptions, of course). I'm sure that statement made me sound pompous and arrogant, but I honestly feel that way.
//off topic ftw
Edit: Oh, and placing anywhere in TC would be respectable (again, IMO) ONLY if the deck wasn't so dang flippy.
Yeah, I think you're right in saying that. I didn't say anything about the Lv.X mechanic itself primarily because I like those cards to a degree, but that's the reason I want to see more of them. We've had our share of "mechanics" in this game that were quickly abandoned -- just think about React Energy and the Thunderquake and Imprison markers -- but it doesn't seem like Lv.X's fit that pattern completely (I mean, they did appear as soon as ex Pokemon left the game). Still, the card creators seem to be protective of the new type of card, releasing just a few every set. With Pokemon-ex, they were releasing them left and right, and they continued to do so until they had a reason to release Pokemon-ex counters. But with the slow dribble of Lv.X cards, only a few decks have fully utilized the mechanic. As you said, there's not a lot of variety here.
I am looking forward to all the new Lv.X's being released, and I additionally think they -- along with a binder's worth of other cards -- will restore this game to what it once was. It's just taking a long, long time.
Muscovy Level X
New Member
That's how I feel about it. So few to begin with, and only a few have vey much use.
G-Dog4377
New Member
I'm thinking that the reason the Lv.X are more playable than ex's were is because there are so few of them. When you do stop and think about it, absolutely every single deck that has been even mildly successful all year has had a Lv.X involved. We started with Infernape and Empoleon of course. Next we moved into MT, and then SW, where we picked up the Lucario, Gardevoir, and Magmortar. That right there was the format for a period of time. GE did not necessarily present any new decks by itself, but Cresselia and Palkia both did see some popularity in the decks already in use. MD now has brought us Eeveelutions and Garchomp. It has also, go figure, reinvigorated our first two, Empoleon and Infernape. So from all of that, the decks throughout the year come up looking like this:
Empoleon
Infernape
Mario
Gardellade (picking up Cresselia for some time)
Magmortar
Eeveelutions
Garchomp
Infernape MD
Empoleon MD (picking up Palkia in some variants)
There was also Arithmetic, which utilized Cresselia. Honchkrow was there too, but I really don't remember hearing of much success for it. Oh, and Blissey, but even that had a variant involving Darkrai. Other than that, I can think of no other decks that have gained popularity amongst the general public during the entire year. Can you?
Now someone said that the popular decks did not necessarily require the services of their Lv.X. While that is true, you can't convince me that they are not integral parts of the strategies of their decks. Empoleon likes to use Supreme Command to restrict your opponent's hand while it knocks off a Claydol or other accelerator. Infernape shreds through the deck on Burning Head, and takes an entire game's worth of Fire back into the deck on the attack. Lucario's Stance followed up by a Cessation Crystal was the turning point play in a lot of matches, and it has always been a staple in any Lucario based deck. I know the Bring Down on Gardevoir is an essential part of its game, and something you have to be thinking about during the course of an entire match when you're in a mirror match with it. Flame Bluster wins games with the instant KO of any small pokemon on the opponent's board, and the free burn for the defending pokemon is always nice to have. Leafeon decks have been sprouting up everywhere not as Eeveelutions decks, but solely for Energy Forcing, while Glaceon has been talked about for its power locking nature. And again with the Empoleons from MD, except now they frequently revolve around abusing Palkia with free retreat cost from Mantine.
So you see, the Lv.X have been dominating the format from the start. They may be few at the moment, but they have potentially been keeping any deck without any Lv.X out of playability. That I do not like at all. If they are going to continue getting a result like that, they should scrap the whole thing, or give everyone a Lv.X.
Empoleon
Infernape
Mario
Gardellade (picking up Cresselia for some time)
Magmortar
Eeveelutions
Garchomp
Infernape MD
Empoleon MD (picking up Palkia in some variants)
There was also Arithmetic, which utilized Cresselia. Honchkrow was there too, but I really don't remember hearing of much success for it. Oh, and Blissey, but even that had a variant involving Darkrai. Other than that, I can think of no other decks that have gained popularity amongst the general public during the entire year. Can you?
Now someone said that the popular decks did not necessarily require the services of their Lv.X. While that is true, you can't convince me that they are not integral parts of the strategies of their decks. Empoleon likes to use Supreme Command to restrict your opponent's hand while it knocks off a Claydol or other accelerator. Infernape shreds through the deck on Burning Head, and takes an entire game's worth of Fire back into the deck on the attack. Lucario's Stance followed up by a Cessation Crystal was the turning point play in a lot of matches, and it has always been a staple in any Lucario based deck. I know the Bring Down on Gardevoir is an essential part of its game, and something you have to be thinking about during the course of an entire match when you're in a mirror match with it. Flame Bluster wins games with the instant KO of any small pokemon on the opponent's board, and the free burn for the defending pokemon is always nice to have. Leafeon decks have been sprouting up everywhere not as Eeveelutions decks, but solely for Energy Forcing, while Glaceon has been talked about for its power locking nature. And again with the Empoleons from MD, except now they frequently revolve around abusing Palkia with free retreat cost from Mantine.
So you see, the Lv.X have been dominating the format from the start. They may be few at the moment, but they have potentially been keeping any deck without any Lv.X out of playability. That I do not like at all. If they are going to continue getting a result like that, they should scrap the whole thing, or give everyone a Lv.X.
Phazon Elite
New Member
Well, they already kinda do in the tins. $15 gets you four packs AND a Lv X. Granted, they won't but the BEST ones in the tins (which is smart, I must admit), but at least they're doing something to counter-balance the extreme rarity of pulling an X out of a pack.
LionheartEX
Active Member
Yeah, and I'm apparently terrible, as is our area...
Anyway
As sets go on I think we'll adapt more. We will start seeing Lv.X counters coming out.
In addition, there are quite good NON Lv.Xs out there- Kabutops for example, and Armaldo is coming out.
G-Dog4377
New Member
Oh, no I meant have every pokemon have a Lv. X form, so that no matter what pokemon you are using in your deck, there is definitely a Lv.X option for you to consider. Of course, that is not going to happen, because then the sets would become ridiculously large.
Chromecatz
New Member
Kabutops is terrible
Pajamas
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Your post should have started and ended here. If you don't know the contents or strategy of a deck, or the metagame in which it is being played, then you're totally unqualified to make any claims about what the deck relies on, or the skill level of the player playing it.
In any case, luck is not some tangible thing that people have... it's a perception of the outcome of random processes. Players who you regard as "lucky" are likely just people who have figured out how to minimize their risk when the coins don't fall their way. The post that initiated this tangent claims that Dialga Lv.X has demonstrated the potential to place well. I'm inclined to agree... I certainly don't know how the deck works, but I'm much more receptive to the idea that somebody has thought of a strategy that I haven't, rather than assuming that I've got it all figured out, so they must be lucksacking.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Phazon Elite, drawing from your opinion of dialga/venusaur, you must believe that sneasel/slowking was a horrible deck. It's main attacker, the Sneasel from Neo Genesis, did nothing but flip. Who'd want to play such a flip-reliant pokemon? Then there's the Slowking: its players would be doing nothing but embarrassing themselves when they failed all Mind Games flips and the opponent's trainer card got through. To ban those two cards was a slap in the face of any other cards considered ban worthy 
There was not a pokemon-ex for every highest stage pokemon, so not every deck had the option of having an evolution line with its top stage having abnormally higher HP and attack damage vs energy cost. Some pokemon were graced with having 3 ex forms, while others got nothing.
Phazon Elite, drawing from your opinion of dialga/venusaur, you must believe that sneasel/slowking was a horrible deck. It's main attacker, the Sneasel from Neo Genesis, did nothing but flip. To ban it was a slap in the face of any other card considered ban worthy
There was not a pokemon-ex for every highest stage pokemon, so not every deck had the option of having an evolution line with its top stage having abnormally higher HP and attack damage vs energy cost. Some pokemon were graced with having 3 ex forms, while others got nothing.
Perhaps, but it does seem like there was better coverage there. For the most part, it seems like only starters, legendaries, and cool new Pokemon get level X's (though exs were that way somewhat as well).
Phazon Elite, drawing from your opinion of dialga/venusaur, you must believe that sneasel/slowking was a horrible deck. It's main attacker, the Sneasel from Neo Genesis, did nothing but flip. Who'd want to play such a flip-reliant pokemon? Then there's the Slowking: its players would be doing nothing but embarrassing themselves when they failed all Mind Games flips and the opponent's trainer card got through. To ban those two cards was a slap in the face of any other cards considered ban worthy
Mindgames was activated multiple times during a turn and always had a 50/50 chance, so if you negated 2 out of 4 trainers it was good, if you just negated one, it still was ok.
And it also was stackable, 4 slowking = 93,5 % sucess rate, seems worthy to risk a few flips
Sneasel also did ridiciulus damage, even if you just got 50% heads, sure it was a bit lucky, but i most cases the outcome was ok.
Now look at Venusaur, beeing a stage 2 and having 50% chance not to do anythink at all.
This still would be ok, but look at Dialga, 25% and if you don't hit, dialga is ABSOLUTELY worthless.
You wanna rely on something that flippy in a tournament ? :nonono:
Sneasel and Slowking flipped more coins, so they would do something most of the time, Venusaur and Dialga are all or nothing, and totally luck dependant
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