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Is there such a thing as God?

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@headsrcool's post#339: Rationality follows a causal-effectual relation that is either traceable or linkable which becomes a circuit in order to cut off or curb the current at least of any further movement or direction than that of which it pertains to. It has to as does everything that 'sieves through thought' or it would be impossible to have the time to think or rationalize about anything.

Though the problem of God as primal causality is quite problematic:

"In the light of Causality, God can sink to the level of a cause, of causa efficiens . He becomes, even in theology, the god of the philosophers, namely, of those who define the unconcealed and concealed in terms of causality of making, without ever considering the essential origin of this causality." -Martin Heidegger-'Question Concerning Technology' pg.26 translated by William Lovitt.

With or without God the concept of the origin of causality remains unsolved in both aspects of how and why did its occurence occur if indeed it ever did and the universe may perhaps be some eternal occurence of unfoldment of effects that has no start and perhaps no finish.
 
headsrcool said:
True that the Bible relies on circular logic, but rationalism also relies on circular logic. We use the Bible to prove the Bible, you use rationality to prove rationalism. Though it is not possible to use circular logic to prove something, once you prove something in the circle the rest follows. Then again, no one lived back when the world was either created or exploded into existence so we can never prove anything.
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No, rationality, as I have already explained, relies on/discusses/analyzes evidence, which is empiricism. It relies on observational data, not logic. To compare the two will not do any justice.

I think we can end there, or do I need to further show how your comparison is weak?
 
r3skyline said:
im going to ask for a tl;dr on how the bible has been dismantled and crushed supposedly "many times".
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Ryan gave the quick and dirty right here...

ryanvergel said:
READ THE THREAD!

That "argument" has been dismantled and crushed many times in this thread. It relies on circular logic. If the Bible is evidential because it is the word of God, but is being used to prove that a God exists, then it is begging the question by assuming the very conclusion it is seeking to prove.
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Why believe everything you read in the Bible? It is just some book written by some person. If it was true, wouldn't be a textbook for public schools. And why is the Bible different from all of the Holy books written?
 
God is real only as long as people believe it is.

If you're looking for proof or cold hard fact that god exists, then you will be sadly mistaken. As pokémom pointed out, one doesn't have to believe in God as the "creator" etc. Many people believe in God as a higher being that drives us to be better people.
 
ilikegengar said:
Humans seem to be hard-wired for a god. Every culture, primative and modern, have some sort of belief in a spirit or God. Why is that if there were no God?
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I just wanted to add a little bit to this. There are other things that seem "hard-wired" in humans- the creation of music and dance, the creation of languages and symbolism to communicate, patriarchy? (this is in most cultures as least), etc. Are these supposed to be divine things, too?

I don't think the disposition towards something being held by many, if not all, cultures is grounds for thinking that the disposition is some kind of evidence for the existence of what is disposed.
By you thinking, music(ality) would be some kind of eternal, present 'thing' that is merely elicited by humans inately. But that isn't the case. Music develops, in nearly every culture, for a purpose, and I argue that the existence of a disposition towards spirituality might serve the same purpose.

Hopefully that was communicated well enough. What you touched on is actually a very moving and strong argument. Many philosophers use that exact line of reasoning to show support for God.
 
@ryanvergel's post#346 The concept of language spoken and written along with music being gifts from a more than human source is found in all the mythologies. Music is derived from the 9 muses of greek mythology which must must be provoked for poetical/musical perfromance and progress. The earliest writting was seen as 'heiroglyphic' which in literal meaning means 'descendant from flight' this wasn't a 'type' of writting but a view on where writting came from i.e. the gods and heaven.

The philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky views human utturances as something more than mere learning and that there must be some part in the brain that allows us to develop and adpat to language so quickly especially at a young age. Also language proceeds memory and arguably 'thought' in human development. Which gives strong suppurt of speech as a 'hard-wiring'.

The concept of spiritual and musical development is quite interesting and I quote with paraphrase something that may have relation to that:

"Gaiatri is indeed all that has come to be, whatever there is. Speech indeed is Gaiatri, for speech sings all that is here..." Ch.U Ch.3 Sec. 12 v. 1 (please note the 'i' in 'gaiatri' should be a 'y' but I decided to make it an 'i' since writting it as '***atri' may get censored.) The 'contempary' commentary of S.R.G. on this verse mentions the following:

"The Chandogya-Upanisad equates the entire creation with the metere ***atri. ...Why does the Upanisad equate all that has come to be with ***atri? 'All that has come to be' shows forth the state of affairs that the world is an occurrence, not as something existing in its own right. As a metere is only a movement, so the world is only a movement, an occurrence, a comming to be, not a presence a conglomeration of fixed entities.
A metere is not, however, merely a movement. It has a structure, fixed and unalterable, definite and predictable. So has the world." -S.R.G. 'The Word Speaks to Faustian Man' Vol.IV pg. 232-233.

This view is a concept of a destined-develpment that shows forth the progress of the world as a predetermined constant unfoldement in to presence or 'becomming in to Being' that is very similar with Heidegger's philosophy.
 
 
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ryanvergel said:
I just wanted to add a little bit to this. There are other things that seem "hard-wired" in humans- the creation of music and dance, the creation of languages and symbolism to communicate, patriarchy? (this is in most cultures as least), etc. Are these supposed to be divine things, too?

I don't think the disposition towards something being held by many, if not all, cultures is grounds for thinking that the disposition is some kind of evidence for the existence of what is disposed.
By you thinking, music(ality) would be some kind of eternal, present 'thing' that is merely elicited by humans inately. But that isn't the case. Music develops, in nearly every culture, for a purpose, and I argue that the existence of a disposition towards spirituality might serve the same purpose.

Hopefully that was communicated well enough. What you touched on is actually a very moving and strong argument. Many philosophers use that exact line of reasoning to show support for God.
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Don't be such a hatter :D Have you heard of doubting Thomas, Jesus's disciple??? If you havn't then you might wanna look him up.(joking tone).

OT: Some people need proof to belive in God and some people don't. If you want proof and you don't belive in the proof that;s given to you then fine. That's OK. Not every one wants to belive. That's your choice. (this is not directed at a single person... if you thought it was)
 
I'm not a skeptic. The Bible is just absolutely impossible to believe. Believe in a god on the other hand, that is an entirely different story.

Just remember why Jesus performed the miracles he did. It was to 'prove to people he was the son of God". People back then wanted to see evidence, firsthand, and Jesus supposedly gave it to them and they wrote a book about it from a few different views, and a rough collection of certain views was compiled many languages ago, and versions were written and re-written and edited and modified and interpreted and now we have an absolutely impossible book (logically inconsistent within itself).

I am supposed to believe this impossible book, while the people 2000 years ago got the hard evidence? If they needed proof, I definitely do too. This faith business is balogna.
 
Oooo, dem's fightin words Ryan. Sorry, but that's your opinion. I have no problem believing the truth of the bible. However, I'm not here to argue with you, if you do happen to believe that way. You have that right, but I would appreciate it if you didn't put a blanket statement without at least one small bit of proof. By all means, prove that is impossible to believe, and that it is an impossible and inconsistant book. However it better be a biggie to prove that to me. I'd rather reason with people than beat them over the head with a "proven" statement which is entirely NOT proven by your posting.

By the way, he also did those miracles and other things, in fulfilment of prophecy. It was also a view of what would happen under theocratic rule after the war of Armageddon (people fed, sickness ended, dead ones brought back to life here on earth, and the knowledge of Jehovah rampant in the earth).
 
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well one thing that confueses me there so much evedence in ghosts people see them with there very eyes but you never see god or jeseus the reason why there is so much suffering and nothing done about it if you are good and you learn from your mistakes then you shouldnt excpect to experince suffering but pain every one goes mental pain can be a sign of learning.
 
thepliskin5005 said:
well one thing that confueses me there so much evedence in ghosts people see them with there very eyes but you never see god or jeseus the reason why there is so much suffering and nothing done about it if you are good and you learn from your mistakes then you shouldnt excpect to experince suffering but pain every one goes mental pain can be a sign of learning.
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Ah but some saints have seen God, Jessus AND Mary. Infact Saind Faustima has been to Hell, Heaven AND Purgatory.
 
@ P A's post#351: What ryanvergel said may have been provocaitive but your claim P A about the 'truth of the bible' could also be seen as provocative. There has been proof of interpolations and even apochophryas in all religious texts. If you want inconsitancy from the 'New-Testament' just compare and contrast the four gospels.

@Ghost spread's post# 353: your statement of a saint have not only seen but having been to hell, purgatory and heaven as 'fact' would require proof, were you there when it 'happended'. I do not mean to provoke or cause disrespect but when people claim belief-systems as 'truth' or events in such systems as 'facts' do show a sense of blindness. I have studied a variety of religions and other such belief systems for years, I am not claiming I'm an expert but I know enough to know to be careful on knowing how to differentiate fact from faith. Not saying faith isn't true I'm saying it's not factual.
 
Will-iam, No problem, can you site examples where the gospels are not harmonious? Each of the Apostles had a different view of how things happened, but each complement, and complete the whole picture of Jesus, and his earthly ministry. I don't remember any passages that contradict each other - can you? I'd be happy to read any evidence supporting this.
 
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/intro.html

out and out contradiction is unlikely, not because the bible is inspired by God but just because it was heavily edited: something that is unavoidable when a large work is compiled from many sources. The Church had a long time to get this editing right and keep the resulting tomb on-message. But as with everything around us flaws are there if you want to see them.

I still view the bible as a "good book" a view that is quite separate from any position I might take on the existance or otherwise of a God, gods, or other higher being/beings.
 
weavile#1... Your question is a very good one and well written. You know, there are so many religions that believe in different ideas and gods. But I think we can all agree that, all over the world, there is alot of violence, injustice and unspeakable-wicked acts that have happened and ARE happening as we speak. People are starving without the basic neccessities such as food and water, fits of anger and greed can turn to bloody-injustful wars, people having no natural affection and respect towards one another, pestilence and deadly diseases spread and kill millions... and the list goes on with no real hope of slowing down of any of these things. In fact, all of these things are increasing like never before. Right in our own very cities......... but did you know (according to the Bible) that there is a very sobering reason as to why this is all taking place? There have been many copies of the Bible written in different ways, but not enough to change the real truth as to why God is allowing this temporary suffering. I'd be more than happy to share a little with you as to why there is sooo much suffering if you would like to know according to the Bible? (I use the Bible's explanation because it is the closest thing there is to a real solution)... after all... 95% of the world believes that only a God can stop all of this... Right? I'll share a little if you don't mind? Topics such as this are good, but it's easy to offend others because we all can have our own ideas...
 
My goodness NoPoke, I found flaws in Mr Morgan's article in the first few paragraphs. I stopped reading it to be honest. To quote him:

"The composition of the various books is thought to have begun around 1000 B.C., and to have continued for about 1,100 years. In actuality, Moses penned Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus finishing up around 1512 BCE, and the Apostle John finished penning Revelation around 98 CE, which is a span of over 1600 years. Much oral material was included. This was repeated from father to son, revised over and over again, and then put into written form by various editors. These editors often worked in different locales and in different time periods and were often unaware of each other. Their work was primarily intended for local use and it is unlikely that any author foresaw that his work would be included in a "Bible." However if the information contained therein was still accurate, it doesn't matter how things were passed down if the actual author of the bible (Jehovah) made sure of the accuracy.
No original manuscripts exist. This is true, however with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can see that the differences in syntax of the original language of the period has only changed very minerly with the passage of thousands of years. You would think that a loving and wise creator would make sure that the message stayed the same, and it has. There is probably not one book which survives in anything like its original form. There are hundreds of differences between the oldest manuscripts of any one book. These differences indicate that numerous additions and alterations, some accidental and some purposeful, were made to the originals by various authors, editors, and copyists. Not sure where he came up with that info, but my info about the Dead Sea scrolls shows it's accuracy.

Many biblical authors are unknown. Not true at all. We know most of the penmen. Though this list may be far from complete, here is a list of most of them: Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Gad, Nathan, King David, Sons of Korah, Asaph, Heman, Ethan, King Soloman, Agur, King Lemuel, Jonah, Joel, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, Micah, Prince Zephaniah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Prince Daniel, Haggai, Zechariah, Prime Minister Mordecai, Ezra, Governor Nehemiah, Malachi, Apostle Matthew, Luke, James the brother of Jesus, Mark, Apostle Peter, Apostle Paul, Jude the brother of Jesus, and the Apostle John. That seems like a fairly comprehensive list to me. Where an author has been named, that name has sometimes been selected by pious believers rather than given by the author himself. The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are examples of books which did not carry the names of their actual authors. The present names were assigned long after these four books were written. And--in spite of what the Gospel authors say--biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of the Gospel authors was either an actual disciple of Jesus or even an eyewitness to his ministry. If such is the case, he didn't give his sources of which scholars didn't believe which authors weren't apostles or disciples of Jesus. Since I have just given the names of penmen which include apostles and disciples of Jesus, I don't think his suppositions are accurate."

My replies are in red. Since there are so many holes with his info, I'm afraid I didn't go any further. Does he have any better info in regard to contradictions in the bible?
 
The information P A has shared is accurate. Consider this: Have we benefited because God has allowed suffering up to this day? Let's reason on this question... 2 Peter 3:9 says: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire 'any' to be destroyed but desires 'all' to attain repentance." If God had immediately executed Adam and Eve, following their sin, none of us would be in existence today. Surely that is not what we would want. Moreover, had God at some later time destroyed all who were sinners, we would not have been born. The fact that God has allowed this sinful world to exist until now has afforded us the opportunity to be alive and learn his ways, to make needed changes in our lives, and to avail ourselves of his loving provisions of eternal life (in the close future here on earth). That Jehovah has granted us this opportunity is an evidence of great love on his part. According to the Bible, God has a set time to destroy this wicked system (the current injustices and sufferings we see so much today) and will do so soon. There are also valid reasons as to why God has allowed suffering to happen in the first place. Any further questions on this topic is welcomed...
 
The link I gave is not trying to dismiss the bible or to highlight big contradictions.

I'm not an expert on the dead sea scrolls but I thought that they contained much that is omitted from the bible. In other words you have to be selective in the use of the dead sea scrolls to justify the bible's provenance. My scientific training makes me very concerned about anyone who has to be selective in their use of evidence to justify an argument. I have no issue with where the dead sea scrolls agree with the bible, but how do you ignore those writings in the same dead sea scrolls that disagree with the current version of the bible?

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I don't particularly care for the authors style as he uses sweeping generalisations. But that is more my problem that I don't have the time or inclination to go and check.
 
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