Is your JUDGING IMPARTIAL?

[ukpokemonpro]

You guys both read my post wrong. Of course if something is wrong, the point should be made, and as you said Pop, by going through the correct channels! Example and this DID NOT happen at worlds, but similar cases did)...I am a judge and make a ruling against a , lets say French player ( again, ONLY AN EXAMPLE). I tell the translator, and before the translator turns to the player, they say " no, that's not right. I'm a professor, and I know better than that" ( example is now over). That's coaching. If that translator had first translated to the player, then asked the judge to clarify himself, still not satisfied should call for the head judge. In other words, as I said in my previous post, follow the correct procedure. Some translators clearly did not, but again, as I also said in my previous post, I know they are not professional translators and most are related to or friends of the player they translating for ( not in all cases). I understand this. I agree with you 100 % Pop.
Marcello did not feel as if the judges were respecting the judges for their knowledge and professor status. That the translators were spoken to disrespectfully. My point is that translators were not chosen for their knowledge of the game, they were chosen for their command of languages. To act as a judge in that capacity is stepping out of bounds. If a translator did this or would not sit in their area until called for, they were most likely told sit in the place they were supposed to or follow the correct procedure. This is not a lack of respect, this is following the rules!
Again, please don't think I feel that a wrong ruling should be left unchecked. There is a right way and a wrong way to address this. This is my point, Pop.
Marcello, what do you mean by every judge knowing every language at worlds? This is impossible. I don't think any judges were thinking that the translators were adding coaching, and I feel that that charge is showing a little disrespect to every judge the worked worlds last year. Can you prove this? Did this personally happen to you? If so, did you not use the proper channels to rectify this? If this happened and you can prove it, I advise you to contact PUI with this. If you are blowing a little steam, be a little nicer about it, the judges are human too! :clap:
Judging staff and translators are going to have to learn to work together. Can't we just all get along? :thumb:

Rick

Okay Rick I can see where you are coming from and I find myself being pulled in two directions here.

Point 1. - you seem to be saying that at worlds your view and that of other judges was - I am a judge and they are translators. Therefore if they raise a question on my judgements they are stepping outside their remit as translators regardless of their knowledge of the game and rulings?

Point 2. - you are intimating by your use of an example of something that didn't happen? - That translators were arguing with judges over rulings in front of players and that this was therefore coaching? - I take it the argument was in English and therefore I am struggling on the coaching bit..

Point 3. - you are saying that Translators did not show the judge staff the respect they demanded?

Point 4. - Marcello is saying that Judges did not show the translators the respect they demanded?

I think that about covers it?

Personally I think it's a matter of maybe tension, excitement and maybe some lost in translation problems. I would welcome as others have said the views of other Professors if they think I am making an incorrect judgement but I would welcome it even more if it is done away from the players so that we can discuss it privately and reach a mutual decision - calling the HJ as needed.

That way the translator shows respect for the judge the judge shows respect for the translator and the players are only told the decision and are not privy to the decision making process - read heated discussion maybe :wink: - Certainly I would not be happy if an argument starts at the table. Take it away from the players, stop the game whilst you discuss the ruling and if needed give them a time extension at the end of the game.

I agree that we are all human and that translators and judges do need to work together to avoid the bad blood. Hopefully 2006 will be the year we all learn a little more respect.. myself included.

 

[TheGame]

Wow! Interesting discussion! I think Ben has certainly raised an interesting and valid point! And despite what others might think I know Ben and I know this is NOT an attack! I myself have had to judge and rule on some of my own son's matches at our league and tourneys in Norwich, UK and I always view it straight down the line in accordance with POP rules and guidelines, and I rather think that the other Profs and judges on the Gym would do likewise (after all that is one of the reasons we become Judges and Profs, to maintain fairness and observance of the rules!) However we can all make mistakes and indeed I got a ruling wrong involving my son and the very next week at league I apologized to the player, explained why I ruled in favour of my son and that was the end of it. The player knows that I always will rule impartially, but this once I got it wrong! The players themselves will know if a judge is fair or not!

 

[Rocketman]

No Poke:
1. Yes, unless there is a ruling that the translator knows is wrong. There is a correct way to handle that, I am assuming that most translators followed the chain of command. Even so, this cannot be abused. To many cooks spoil the soup, and if you're trying to do someone else's job, then who's doing yours?
Another part of this was the respect for other professors.......if a professor is given the job as translator, then he should understand that he ( or she) has a job and it is not to judge. Judges do not disrespect the translators, but if they are not judging staff, they cannot make rulings. I did not se this at worlds, but I guessing it happened based upon what Marcello posted.
2. I used a totally fabricated example, and went through great pains to make sure that it was known to all that this was fabricated. I will not name any names or countries on this board. To be clear about this, I had no argument with any translators. As far as coaching goes, this is a grey area, so I'll put it another way. If player A has a translator by him to help make decisions as to whether a ruling should be questioned, then why not have a friend sitting by player B to help him? which brings us to
3. Translators were told to sit in a certain place until they were called for. This was abused by some translators, showing lack of respect for judges. This was not a rule invented by the judging staff, this was explained to judges and translators alike, so it was not like it was not known by them.
4. I did not see any lack of respect for translators, but that dosen't mean it didn't happen. As stated before, I know the staff, and don't see it happening, not without a good reason.
That being said, I think the translating staff did a pretty good job for the most part. I think the judging staff did one of the best jobs I'v seen at an event this large. But I'd really like to see us work together better in the future. I can assure you, the judging staff will work as hard as they can to be better than ever for 2006, and I hope the translators will also. NoPoke, Marcello, are you for that as well? My hand is extended. :smile:
Rick

 

[NoPoke]

Rick I think your points are addressed to Ukpokemonpro's post, but I'll respond anyway.

consider this scenario...

A judge is called and makes a rulling. However someone else thinks that the rulling is wrong.

- should the rulling stand?
- do only players have rights of appeal?
- can another judge intervene?
- what of spectators?
- are translators required to translate incorrect rullings?

Now I know I've set the above out so that it appears to have yes/no answers but it is my view that this isn't the case. If I'm judging and I make a mistake, then I'd much rather be told immediately. The problem is now one of HOW the details of my mistake are communicated, and HOW to avoid disruption to the players and tournament. So a statement that Only Judges judge does not mean for me that only judges have the "true" knowledge. Rather it is telling us that it is the judges role to communicate rullings to the players.

Just so that noone thinks I'm in favour of anarchy I do think that the following applies....

The PRIMARY responsibility of spectators is to watch and NOT interfere.
The PRIMARY responsibility of Judges is to be fair, impartial.

Judges don't HAVE to be correct, though they should do everything that is reasonable to avoid errors. Spectators can and probably should point out errors if they can do so in a way that does not interfere. So how to do this in an appropriate way is the key for me. Appropriae at a local event, even a big one, where there are known rullings experts in the room, is different to appropriate behaviour at an event like worlds where the majority of the people attending will be unknown.

pulling Marcello's post apart, this bit would really concern me if it were true

They (judges@worlds) acted as they were the only ones that did know the rules.

Ian

Rick for the most part I was a spectator at worlds. Yes I did call judges on occassion. I did talk to other spectators, sometimes to remind them that talking to the players could be considered coaching. I was informed of an incorrect rulling by some players but by that time there was nothing I could do that would help the situation so I raised the issue with a judge and left it at that. ( fwiw I was told that a judge had rulled that rainbow energy could not be moved by a dark dragonite. )

Oh and my own answers to the questions I posed are mostly of the form 'Yes,but...' and 'Probably', there is one 'Yes!' in there.

 

[ukpokemonpro]

Rick I think your points are addressed to Ukpokemonpro's post, but I'll respond anyway.

consider this scenario...

A judge is called and makes a rulling. However someone else thinks that the rulling is wrong.

- should the rulling stand?
- do only players have rights of appeal?
- can another judge intervene?
- what of spectators?
- are translators required to translate incorrect rullings?

Now I know I've set the above out so that it appears to have yes/no answers but it is my view that this isn't the case. If I'm judging and I make a mistake, then I'd much rather be told immediately. The problem is now one of HOW the details of my mistake are communicated, and HOW to avoid disruption to the players and tournament. So a statement that Only Judges judge does not mean for me that only judges have the "true" knowledge. Rather it is telling us that it is the judges role to communicate rullings to the players.

Just so that noone thinks I'm in favour of anarchy I do think that the following applies....

The PRIMARY responsibility of spectators is to watch and NOT interfere.
The PRIMARY responsibility of Judges is to be fair, impartial.

Judges don't HAVE to be correct, though they should do everything that is reasonable to avoid errors. Spectators can and probably should point out errors if they can do so in a way that does not interfere. So how to do this in an appropriate way is the key for me. Appropriae at a local event, even a big one, where there are known rullings experts in the room, is different to appropriate behaviour at an event like worlds where the majority of the people attending will be unknown.

pulling Marcello's post apart, this bit would really concern me if it were true

Ian

Rick for the most part I was a spectator at worlds. Yes I did call judges on occassion. I did talk to other spectators, sometimes to remind them that talking to the players could be considered coaching. I was informed of an incorrect rulling by some players but by that time there was nothing I could do that would help the situation so I raised the issue with a judge and left it at that. ( fwiw I was told that a judge had rulled that rainbow energy could not be moved by a dark dragonite. )

Oh and my own answers to the questions I posed are mostly of the form 'Yes,but...' and 'Probably', there is one 'Yes!' in there.

Ah Ian it's as always I post em and you get banned? LOL

Seriously thanks to NoPoke for putting it so well.. I really do think that Judges should be accessable and open to other expert opinion. But as NoPoke has said it's how that is done that is the key. As I said before any discussion should be away from the players and play area and the Judge should be the one making the ruling in the end and if a spectator or translator thinks that is the wrong ruling then the HJ is called and a discussion can take take place again away from the table.

Keep it away from the players, be courteous and respect each other. And the ruling in the end has to come from the Judge Team - that way their authority is maintained.

I am all for order and anarchy is to be avoided

 

[Rocketman]

well,there, you go, I made a mistake and the UK translator corrects me on it..........
Wellat leat you guys are starting to get where I'm coming from. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, if you were a spectator, fine, I really didn't remember. Every single time a translator got involved in rulings with me, it was about minor rulings questions, and every single time, I was right. I doubt any of the judging staff ruled that about a rainbow energy, of course, maybe it was a translator that ruled that......... :lol:
You are right about Marcello's post; I felt it was negitive to all the judging staff, I'm sorry we worked VERY hard to maintain execellence in judging. That comment wasn't necessary, and it wasn't true. And while you could debate it until worlds 2006, I'll say you understand what I am saying.......if everyone focuses on their job and does the best they can, work together and don't point fingers, we can make Worlds 2006 much better. :thumb:
Rick

 

[NoPoke]

Rick, well I don't know the details but if even one judge behaved the way that Marcello indicates then the comment needed to be made. They does not mean all.

I must say that I didn't read Marcello's post as a negative comment against hard working judge staff. But being an uninvolved third party its easier for me to read it that way. Another reason why Marcello's post was worth making is that it has elicited some discussion on responsibilities, boundaries, and how to address the real need for communication across those boundaries.

 

[Fireborn]

Translators are, of course, not judges, and should not interfere with the match other than to translate. But I think I can safely say that translators know the game as well, and can spot misplays as easily as a judges at times.

Now I don't know the exact situation, but this happened with the Belgian translator. She was watching a game where Ancient Tomb had been played, and someone attacked an EX Pokemon not applying weakness. The judge who was watching it actually made the ruling that weakness should not be applied, and when she notified him of the fact that Ancient Tomb does not include EX cards, he merely ignored her as she was just a translator and he was the judge, and let play continue.

I am not 100% sure this was exactly what happened, cos the Belgian translator told me this in a heated moment, but this is what it came down to.

As a player, I do not think this was 'respecting the translator' in any way.

 

[Rocketman]

Thank you all for your comments.
Rick

 

[CameraMan]

In the Judges Meeting judges were told to judge and translators to translate. They were told the Translator was not to talk to a player without a Judge present, but there were numerous instances where the Translators did not wait for a Judge There is no mistake in that. The spectators should not be talking loud enough for any player to hear, whether they are speaking in English or any other language. I personally saw this happen more than one time. I privately told a judge about it and they took care of it. I also talked to a translator and they told me it was hard just to translate because they were use to being judges. I personally think that if you want to make sure that translators just translate and they don’t have any interest in the player or game, than we need to just hire translators. This would insure that no one was coaching, because they would not have a personal stake in the game. They could also help keep an ear on the spectators and handle that problem as well. I know some of the translators did not have a family members playing but they did have league players playing. I understand that the translators know the game as well as most of the judges but they were told from the beginning not to do anything without a judge and only to translate. I personally thought that Worlds 2005 was better in most areas than Worlds 2004 and I believe that Worlds 2006 will be even better. I also feel that the Judging staff selected were top notch in their knowledge of the game, and their commitment and integrity to promote fair play!

 

[NoPoke]

FWIW and its probably not worth a lot, I believe that reducing the number of staff of any type that know how the game is to be played is a retrograde step. I am certain there will be more problems and not fewer if you hire translators who have no idea how the game is played.

I also believe that unless the spectators are kept in a different room the level of background noise and conversation will remain high.

Even top notch judges make mistakes: the Dark Trance and Rainbow error was made by a judge and not a translator. Fireborn gives an example of a different error. Despite best effort and intention rullings mistakes will occur. There were probably others. I am not having a go at the judges here. See my other posts for my view of mistakes happening. I saw more spectator 'errors' that judge errors at worlds. Though not specifically an error I recall a discussion amongst some other Europeans on a rulling that had gone against one of their players, they thought that the rulling was biased in favour of the american opponent. After they explained to me what had happened my only comment was that I would have given much the same decision as the American judge. It might be a good idea if spectators have somewhere to go to discuss such issues at next years worlds rather than being left to stew and become upset at what they perceive as bias.

 

[Rocketman]

I for one have no bias, even though I am American, my family comes from Germany, and I enjoy the European culture. I have practised Japanese martial arts for 30 years, and have enjoyed their culture very much as well. And most of the Americans I see playing at the Worlds I know as much as anyone, that is, not at all. And again, I know all of the judges and know they have no bias what so ever.
I do know that we all work very hard to do the best we can. I'm sure the European tournaments have no problems such as this, and if you do , I'd really like to know how you handle it, as I am always working to become better.
I can say this much on this thread, there's no doubt that some translators oversteped their boundries. And no doubt that some judges made some mistakes. And I've already stated that we could all learn to work together, but the only person to discuss this with me from Europe didn't even work the event. If this is just a " bash the judges thread" then maybe the mods should just lock it. I am open for meaningful discussion. Of note, if you saw a judges mistake, state that. if you " heard someone say this" I move we leave those out.
IMHO, we had the best judging staff there is. And I thought the translators did well, as I said before. But all of us can improve, and that's what I'm working for.
Rick

 

[PokePop]

Many of the mods here, myself included, were Judges at the event and, speaking for myself, I'm not feeling bashed.

I certainly would rather have had issues like these brought up at the time or immediately afterwards or even in the Worlds Staff Forum where they could have been dealt with more effectively. It's a bit late, with fading memories, to get to the bottom of it now.

 

[Rocketman]

Many of the mods here, myself included, were Judges at the event and, speaking for myself, I'm not feeling bashed.

I certainly would rather have had issues like these brought up at the time or immediately afterwards or even in the Worlds Staff Forum where they could have been dealt with more effectively. It's a bit late, with fading memories, to get to the bottom of it now.

Great point, Pop.

 

[NoPoke]

I'm not bashing the judges either!
or the translators
or the spectators

AND MOST OF ALL I'm not trying to get to the bottom of any particular mistake.

========

Do you think that my idea of having some rulings experts for the spectators to go too would help at worlds next year?

Encouraging spectators to talk to judges is fine but for the increased workload on the judges.

 

[Rocketman]

What experts would you have? Just about all the Compendium are on the staff, and each age div. had one for the HJ.
I didn't say anything about anybody bashing anybody.....I just didn't want it to get to that. As Pop said, it has been some time since worlds, and memories do fade and change.
So bring anyone to watch if you think it would help. But I'm not in favor of brining in experts or professional translators, for the simple reason is that Worlds has a budget. I would rather the money go to the players. If you do these things, it will take something away that you like at worlds.
If we had a ton of money to use, I'd say both those ideas would be fine.
Rick

 

[Tego]

For this year's Worlds, I expected way too much of myself and decided to be a movable judge in all three age groups, live updater & photographer for www.pokemon.no AND translator for German, English, Norwegian and Japanese. Other than making me very tired, the worst part about this was the fact that I combined the roles of judge and translator. I love judging, and I love languages and helping people cross language barriers, but it was not a wise decision of me to be both. Why? Translators should not know too much about the game. That is what I realized after Worlds this year. Or, better put: translators shouldn't translate in a way that is affected by their knowledge about the game and its rules.

Because I was this strange mix of translator and judge, and because it was the last round and I was almost dead of tiredness, I did a terrible mistake in the last swiss round of Worlds. I'm really ashamed of what I did, and it made me lose my respect of myself as a judge and my pride as a judge. My judging in this incident can also be called partial, though that was never intended. Here's what happened:

Mathilde Hjelle (Daddiursa's daughter), 9 year old top Norwegian player, was going to play a Japanese player in the last round of Swiss. At her age, she hardly knows any English at all. And of course no Japanese. Me being the only Norwegian translator, I had to pay attention to this match. Right before the start of the match, Mathilde cries out: "oh no, my deck isn't here!". She panics and tells me that she thinks her dad, Daddiursa, might have it. Because I was a judge for both 10- and 15+ (and 11-14, of course), I knew which table Daddiursa was sitting at at this point. I ran as fast as I could over to him and told him. He panics too, searches his whole bag for the deck and becomes incredibly stressed when he doesn't find it. He tells me it only can be with Mathilde. I run back to 10-, tell her to search her bag again, and she finds it. It was there all along, she had just been too nervous to notice. Her hands shaking of nervousity and stress, she starts to play the Japanese kid, who looks confused by this point.

They manage to start on time, but Mathilde is so nervous and confused and needs so much help with communicating that HJ Bulbasnore asks me to stay there and follow this troubled match. During the match, Mathilde makes all kinds of small mistakes, which I could correct as a judge, and also asks all kinds of stuff because she is so stressed and I can translate. But then, in her stress, Mathilde does what I know many 10- players do (and I knew she does often): she mixes up the effects of Super Scoop Up and Pokémon Reversal. She flips heads on Super Scoop Up and wants to change the Japanese boy's active Pokémon. I shake my head, tell her she can't, and tell her (in Norwegian): "this is not the card that changes his active pokémon. It's the card that returns YOUR active Pokémon. And to the hand. Remember?" I point at Zapdos ex and signal to her that she must return it.

This is of course not right. Why did I say it? Was I partial and wanted to guide her into choosing her active Zapdos ex for scooping? No. In all my stress, I told her a wrong effect. For a brief second, I thought Super Scoop Up actually just could take your active Pokémon (not your benched). She had the advantage anyway in this match and her Zapdos ex was hardly damaged at all. Returning Zapdos ex would not be such a good idea in the first place. But no matter what, I did more than a translator should, and also more than a judge should: I told her what she should do!

The whole match had been a disaster. Norwegian is my native language and I know only elementary Japanese (it's a language I have studied for 2 years, but I will have to study it for many more before I can claim to have anything more than basic understanding of it), so the Norwegian girl was in favor and the Japanese boy had a hard time communicating. Of course, there was also a Japanese translator and a US judge there, but for the whole match Mathilde had the advantage of me being a judge who knew Norwegian, and the Japanese boy hardly had any advantage of my limited Japanese. I never could have made the mistake of pointing him towards what he should do or not.

What am I trying to say here? There are many things that can make you judge partial. But to avoid it, don't mix the roles of judge and translator. And don't judge or translate for people you know. The Japanese boy started crying at the end of this chaotic match and I felt so bad I wanted to resign as a judge and disappear into a hole in the ground. I never intended to make this stupid mistake, but no matter what I said I knew everyone would look at me as impartial.

But how do we avoid all this? It's hard. First, almost all judges and TOs have sibilings, friends and/or children in their tournament. It's hard for such a Pokémaniac not to involve his closest in the game. How de we avoid judging people we know? Don't we all have to judge people we know closely from time to time (I don't know Mathilde all that well, but I have to judge my sibilings at local tournaments all the time). Secondly, worlds translators should not know the game's rules too well, and they should not know their country's top players too well (they are the people the will do translating for!). But how do we avoid this? How can you end up as a translator at POKéMON WORLDS if you don't know the games rules? And how can you be enough involved in the game in your homecountry to be sent as translator for judges, but still not know the other Pokémaniacs in your country?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but they're truly worth discussing. But just to clarify: I don't think it's impossible to judge people you know. I don't think that everyone has to do these mistakes because I did. I just know there's a high chance of judging or translating in a wrong way under certain circumstances.

 

[Tego]

The only exception was Eskil, who demonstrated that one can be both judge and translator without giving advantage to anyone.

Sorry, but I did in one match, as you can read about in my seperate post above. I judged and translated for a wast amount of matches in this year's Worlds, and in all three age groups, and in one of them it happened.

I personally think that if you want to make sure that translators just translate and they don’t have any interest in the player or game, than we need to just hire translators. This would insure that no one was coaching, because they would not have a personal stake in the game. They could also help keep an ear on the spectators and handle that problem as well.

I agree. That's the kind of translators we need. They should have very, very basic knowledge of the game, though. If they don't know anything of what's going on at the table, and know none of the quite specialized words in this game, they won't be able to translate. But definitely, we should stop having translators who work as National Championship Head Judges in their homecountry. They know the game too well. However, if we're going to have professional translators at Worlds 2006 and cut out the kind of translators we've had up to now, we need more non-US judges. We need to have an international Worlds staff. Ives and I were the only non-US judges this year, and I was the only European. Super-experienced European judges that keep the whole Organized Play boat sailing in their home country and judge tons of premier tournaments every year are qualified enough for judging Worlds.

We need more European TOs as worlds judges, and much less of them as translators...

 

[ukpokemonpro]

..... However, if we're going to have professional translators at Worlds 2006 and cut out the kind of translators we've had up to now, we need more non-US judges. We need to have an international Worlds staff. Ives and I were the only non-US judges this year, and I was the only European. Super-experienced European judges that keep the whole Organized Play boat sailing in their home country and judge tons of premier tournaments every year are qualified enough for judging Worlds.

We need more European TOs as worlds judges, and much less of them as translators...

Unfortunately at the heart of this is the quandry experienced TO's and Judges have about worlds, there are no paid trips for International Judges and TO's. So if you want to go and help it's at your own expense..

Until we get some paid Judge Slots most of the Judges and TO's I know will be playing for a trip/place and not even judging their own nationals.

No Sponsored International Judge Places - No International Judges

 

[Tego]

Well, that was part of what I meant. The translators get trips now, and I want these people to be judges instead (and they should of course keep getting trips).