Master Yoda
New Member
ähm... back to jpn meta?
Japan Meta/Decks
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Tego
New Member
Recently, the biggest tournaments have been run with the formats 60-card deck w/ 4 prizes (Seniors, Masters) and 30-card deck w/ 3 prizes (Junior). So at all big events in Japan for the past months, the most effective strategy has been to win as fast as possible. Cards like Luxray GL lv.X, Garchomp C lv.X, Gengar, Beedrill and Machamp tend to do well in an environment like this. Also, Salamence lv.X can work, allowing you to draw half your prizes with just one attack. It will be interesting to see how the DP1-PL4 format will work in the rest of the world, where it's played "properly" with 6 prize cards, and there are other viable strategies besides donking.
toxictaipan
New Member
Why exactly do they play like that, though?
lucario aura wielder
New Member
because w/4 prize cards that`s asking for player to play donk decks
ryanvergel
New Member
why 4 prizes? its faster. plain and simple.
we can get into why they want it faster, but we probably shouldnt. thats the way it is set up. hopefully in about 9 months ill be experiencing 4 prize formats for myself =D
we can get into why they want it faster, but we probably shouldnt. thats the way it is set up. hopefully in about 9 months ill be experiencing 4 prize formats for myself =D
Prize_Card
New Member
Also with 4 prizes they could make it best 2 out of 3 ( I wish)
Tego
New Member
No, that's not going to happen.
The only reason why the big events in Japan are run with four prizes, is to have each match end as fast as possible. At any time during the event, the majority of players are standing (in lines) and watching, while a selected few get to sit and play in the limited seating. Whenever the players are done playing, the players in the front of the line are liberated from the pain and boredom of standing in line - in a system like this, the faster players rotate, the better.
Swiss rounds and time limits would both be good for Japan, but limited seating and big turnouts mean it's kind of impossible to do.
The only reason why the big events in Japan are run with four prizes, is to have each match end as fast as possible. At any time during the event, the majority of players are standing (in lines) and watching, while a selected few get to sit and play in the limited seating. Whenever the players are done playing, the players in the front of the line are liberated from the pain and boredom of standing in line - in a system like this, the faster players rotate, the better.
Swiss rounds and time limits would both be good for Japan, but limited seating and big turnouts mean it's kind of impossible to do.
Tego
New Member
Like I said, you need to queue for a good while, and then you get to sit down at one of the limited number of tables.
You have to win a certain number of games (for example, eight or three, completely different depending on the event), and then you receive a special and very rare prize. Like TSD back in the day, or Arceus Golden Victory Medal this summer, or Typhlosion Golden Victory Medal now. Many of these items are ony distributed for a very limited time, so winning them is pretty nice. However, if you lose ONE game, you need to exit the tournament area and go stand in a line in order to get bak in.
Which means that if you want one of the nice prizes, you can't afford to lose (and re-queue) many times.
You have to win a certain number of games (for example, eight or three, completely different depending on the event), and then you receive a special and very rare prize. Like TSD back in the day, or Arceus Golden Victory Medal this summer, or Typhlosion Golden Victory Medal now. Many of these items are ony distributed for a very limited time, so winning them is pretty nice. However, if you lose ONE game, you need to exit the tournament area and go stand in a line in order to get bak in.
Which means that if you want one of the nice prizes, you can't afford to lose (and re-queue) many times.
Ariadosman
New Member
Why do threads like this NEVER get proper answers as to what the metagame ACTUALLY is in Japan? We still haven't heard anything useful and never have in these sorts of threads.
I wonder why...
I wonder why...
Tego
New Member
Because what people are "fishing" for here is information about what kind of decks won in Japan at their Premier Events when they had the same format as we will have for Cities. So that they can know what deck is likely to win Cities. But this question is not answerable, since the "premier events" Japan had in the DP1-A format were so completely different than our Cities, and completely other decks worked. Good decks in Japan under the DP1-A 60-card deck four-prize no time limit tournament format:
- Gyarados/Expert Belt
- Uxie/Shuppet/Expert Belt
- SP: Luxray/Garchomp/Blaziken
- Machamp
- Salamence? (doesn't seem like it saw much play, though)
In other words, decks that can start drawing prizes T1/T2 worked the best, because after that you'd only have 3- prizes left. When we play with 6 prizes and 40 minutes in our Cities, though, I'm sure many of these decks won't work nearly as good. And new cards like Salamence lv.X and Gengar lv.X will work much better for us, because the environment will allow decks to set up.
- Gyarados/Expert Belt
- Uxie/Shuppet/Expert Belt
- SP: Luxray/Garchomp/Blaziken
- Machamp
- Salamence? (doesn't seem like it saw much play, though)
In other words, decks that can start drawing prizes T1/T2 worked the best, because after that you'd only have 3- prizes left. When we play with 6 prizes and 40 minutes in our Cities, though, I'm sure many of these decks won't work nearly as good. And new cards like Salamence lv.X and Gengar lv.X will work much better for us, because the environment will allow decks to set up.
ryanvergel
New Member
I wonder why too. Maybe because only ONE visitor to this site has ANY knowledge of Japanese metagame, and the knowledge is of a few tournaments in an entirely different tournament structure and game structure.
Now you don't have to wonder.
Sabett
Active Member
Uh despite Japan having a "different" format to play with, they are still playing sets ahead of us, and still create archetypes, techs and builds that maybe unknown to us at the time being or for a while after the set comes out. It's also looking at the newer lists and seeing what they play, like if we had seen what they're playing before upper came out I think a lot more people wouldn't have overhyped it so much. The same thing could apply to expert belt, but I think that's directly affected by the difference between our formats to be taken seriously enough. Deck lists would help out a lot more than naming archetype X, Y, & Z. Like what does it tell us to say that Gyrados, and Machamp are still being played? Not a whole lot, the differences in our decks is really what needs to be listed. For example I know that those starter deck things just came out, have you seen any lists popping up using the new warp point without the switch, any of the new supporters? What about that Leafeon? Is anyone running it and if so what are they running it with?
ryanvergel
New Member
A 4 prize format is completely different from a 6 prize format- period. The slightly different list styles of the Japanese are likely created because of a different metagame, different demand on your deck, and different tournament structure (you have to go undefeated often times, unlike in POP where you can often get into a top cut at X-2 with 40 minute rounds or best of three like some places in Europe have experimented with). So, a different metagame environment (they don't see decks months in advance and theorize before they get to play and go into tournaments- they are blind, and their decks usually evolve more and change appearance moreso than our own decks), a different game structure in terms of time limits and prize count (it's like playing a 60 card modified pre-release. those rounds go by in 15-20 minutes, which is what the Japanese tournaments aim to do- move faster, and usually a different tournament structure. All of these factors make their deck differences pretty useless for us. We can see what kind of decks are being played, but their builds and metagame are still quite differently oriented. Our builds would have to look different normally, if we even play the same decks that do well with 50% more prizes than they are used to.
Why would someone be motivated to post that kind of information? That is like posting your best deck lists online. That seems stupid. It gives your competition access to information that you have worked hard to obtain, and why should anyone give up what little advantage we can create in this game? To help ungrateful people like you [all] who aren't satisfied with the archetype titles, but want to know the 5 card differences in decks from our own style of build? I don't see the motivation or benefit of ever posting good lists online for people to access puclicly. It leads to netdecking, and people doing well with work that you put in. It's like giving out answers to homework to strangers. It doesn't help you at all- it hurts you, in giving them higher grades, increasing competition, all at the cost of YOUR sole, hard work. Some people can possibly justify helping friends with homework answers, because you may value their success above your slightly decreased competition. However, I definitely don't value the success of other strangers at the cost of my work if it means putting myself at a disadvantage. That seems absolutely ABSURD to ask anyone to do, or even get abrasive about. You're really getting abrasive about someone not wanting to go into great detail about giving you worked-over information that would disadvantage himself and his friends/family/interests at the cost of his hard work? Really?
Really? While you're at it, why not ask all the best players and tournament winners to post their decklists? It sure would help more than simply hearing that they won with X deck. Are you going to get upset if they don't post that kind of information for strangers on a public forum? If he wants to post more, he'll post more. I'm grateful for what information he does post here rarely. I can't possibly support the stance that he ought to post any more information though. I wouldn't do it if I were in a similar situation (posting my own, best decklists), so why should I expect anyone else to? Even if you are cool with posting decklists, you should never expect someone else to give you their list, ever. There is a reason the tournament rules says:
POP now destroys or returns decklists, whereas before they were usually kept. Even POP acknowledges the legitimacy of seeking privacy in one's deck list, even if it means simply having sole possession of it.
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Sabett
Active Member
It doesn't matter how "drastically" different our formats are. Some info is a whole lot better than no info, it doesn't matter if the decklists are taken out of context because they play in a different format, that's just something to consider when looking at said decklists. For example wouldn't it seem important to know whether or not something like that new flariodos deck emerged among the Japan meta? Seems fast enough, and survivable enough to exist in both metas as many decks do.
Uh well first off, I never even addressed the issue of Tego being motivated to give us such info in the first place. Secondly it is very innapropriate to call me "ungrateful" or "absurd", because not only could I be defending a point simply to argue a point of view, not only do you not know anything about me personally, this is not way shape or form to call me as such, and I'd really appreciate an apology for this. And thirdly I don't want to talk about the incentive or reasoning to post said info up, because I never began to talk about it in the first place.
ryanvergel
New Member
I didn't call you absurd, I said expecting... and getting abrasive about not receiving (implying unmet expectations) was absurd. I was mainly referring to ariadosman in the ungrateful comment. You were mainly responding to my post. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I modified my original post to refer to you all- the general reader. I was mainly using your post as a platform, not really referring specifically to you, but rather to anyone with the same mindset of expecting any more information.
He already posted the top decks in the 4 prize structure. What more do you want? Exact lists? I already posted why it makes no sense to expect anyone to do that sort of thing. The original poster already asked, and Tego gave a well-thought response as to why he couldn't give much more information:
Emphasis added.
I know you didn't bring up incentives to posting lists, but I am simply saying that you shouldn't expect anyone to ever post a decklist, or even crucial information like build differences in a future metagame of card pool because it puts them at a disadvantage, while advantaging complete strangers who did not contribute anything.
Would it be good for us to know the slight distinctions, etc, between their lists and ours? Of course. That's why we shouldn't expect him to give us such information- it's obviously valuable in a limited way, and there is no rationale behind him giving out information that puts himself and his interests at a disadvantage for the favor of complete strangers who weren't satisfied with the deck names, but wanted even more. I don't like seeing an ungrateful attitude like this:
We should all thank Tego for simply sharing what he does share. He's been posting on the 'gym for a while and has given us a lot of valuable information about Japan's Pokemon TCG. And yet despite all this great stuff he's done, without asking for anything in return, people are turning abrasive and impatient and sarcastic that he hasn't posted any more information. Why would we expect more? We've asked multiple times. He's posted what he's posted, and getting upset because we want more is just greedy and disrespectful and ungrateful for all the work he has already given us.
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