Jumpluff
- Thread starter Ruiner
- Start date
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
EDIT: Thank you for backing me up, since we both posted at the same minute, but it wasn't necessary. Let's just please confine the continuing discussion to the merits of the article, and the deck itself, thank you. P_A.
PokeChampofPokeBeach
New Member
I often wonder why so many people forget about a single card when writing about Cursegar: Gengar SF. While for the most part I'd have to agree that the matchup is slanted in your favor, the moment I see Jumpluff I just keep them Trainer locked for as long as possible, and then let them have it with Poltergeist. If I load up on benched Pokemon, I can deliberately force your damage into triggering Fainting Spell, and even just straight aggro Shadow Room disrupts your 30 HP Hoppips and other Power-users. Having both played and written an article on Jumpluff myself, I can vouch that there is little hope versus Gengar SF, and I can guarantee it can rock the Cursegar matchup straight into Cursegar's favor. A smart Cursegar player should be able to win versus Jumpluff every time.
Regardless, this is a very in-depth article and I applaud your effort. It's very rarely that I read an article on the Gym and actually say to myself, "That's a pretty good article."
Regardless, this is a very in-depth article and I applaud your effort. It's very rarely that I read an article on the Gym and actually say to myself, "That's a pretty good article."
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Nekizalb
New Member
After winning a States with Jumpluff/Luxray, this article was by far the most interesting article on the 'Gym that I have read. I can particularly relate to it, and I like that.
My build ran a 2-2 Luxray line and 2-2 Claydol instead of 1-1 and 3-3, respectively. I never really had any problems with speed, but I did notice that often I did not take 6 prizes in 6 turns. My list also ran Cyrus's Conspiracy to search out Poketurns. While I will say that that helped me many times over the courses of my games, I realize that sometimes speed is better.
I like this list more than the list I used because it is a lot faster. I will definitely try it out.
Great job on the article!
My build ran a 2-2 Luxray line and 2-2 Claydol instead of 1-1 and 3-3, respectively. I never really had any problems with speed, but I did notice that often I did not take 6 prizes in 6 turns. My list also ran Cyrus's Conspiracy to search out Poketurns. While I will say that that helped me many times over the courses of my games, I realize that sometimes speed is better.
I like this list more than the list I used because it is a lot faster. I will definitely try it out.
Great job on the article!
If it was mother gengar or gechamp I would say it is in their favor. However, you can regice the spiritomb away or luxray it away. you don't put hoppips on the bench without having skipbloom or jumpluff ready to evolve. If you can't get regice just put something like a crobat active and let them take poltergiest damage. Then you can try to knock Gengar out. With your recovery you should get back faster than they do if fainting spell worked. The matchup will become trickier if they run 2 SF gengars. I think a smart Jumpluff player will normally win against cursegar.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
Not so much... Pokemon Collector+Regice *poof* all set up to ruin Jumpluff.
Absoltrainer
Active Member
A QUALITY DECK ARTICLE?
WITH REALISTIC MATCH-UPS?
...
On Pokegym?
WHOA!
GG Ruiner, this is one of the best deck related articles I've read in a long time.
Ruiner winz teh interetz for teh day.
WITH REALISTIC MATCH-UPS?
...
On Pokegym?
WHOA!
GG Ruiner, this is one of the best deck related articles I've read in a long time.
Ruiner winz teh interetz for teh day.
Ok, first, I'd like to thank those who enjoyed the article and the effort I put into it, even those who disagree with the occasional matchup analysis.
SF Gengar isn't really that relevent vs Jumpluff. If the Jumpluff player is sloppy and doesn't adjust their own game plan to how you approach the matchup, then sure, it can give you an edge. Even with that "edge" over the standard approach, it isn't enough to let you win even close to 50% of the games. Let me point out a few problems.
First, at best, you get one turn of the "huge poltergeist". Now, thats even assuming you get a "huge poltergeist" at all. I run a 3-3 Claydol line, which helps to manage the # of trainers in my hand. I can also use my Supporters unhindered. Toss in the fact I can use Chatot to "set up" past the trainer lock to manually get my evolutions. Regice also serves as a potential "trainer dump". If you think I can't keep my hand down to less than 3 trainers, and keep a Crobat G active to take the hit, your dead wrong.
The next question is, you kill my guy first, and then I just go off normally. Now what? You can't even re-lock my trainers, and my gameplan is unhindered. Being up a prize isn't going to magically make you a favorite vs Jumpluff when your not able to score one hit KOs during the game. If you want to sit there and 2 hit benched Pokemon while I take a prize each turn I'm more then ok with that. I won't even need to take Fainting Spell flips either due to fancy crobat work. I guarantee you that regardless of "approach" that Gengar is this deck's easiest matchup. I've had bad starts, gotten trainer locked, and fallen behind 2 prizes vs a deck running Dusknoir and 2 Mr Mime and still beaten it comfortably. There is no possible way that Gengar, outside of a huge effort JUST to tech vs Jumpluff and ruining most if not all of it's other matchups, beats Jumpluff.
Gyarados: Baby Mario: I know that in the UK Gyarados builds are actually better. I know Tom Hall and Sami Sekkoum both have very good Gyarados lists, running the Luxray, and a bunch of Warp Energy. Some of the top players have done the same, but they also don't usually choose to run Gyarados, A vast majority of the ones I'd seen from States, and those my friends have played vs around the country, do not yet run these gusting effects. Luxray is a fantastic addition to Gyarados. Reversal is simply worse than Luxray.
In the instance where the player ( I'm sorry I forget the user name, but I can't scroll back a page to check ) killed 3 support Pokemon before getting blown out by the near solo- Gyarados problem. That can be avoided by not killing all of the support Pokemon so aggressively too. You can really adjust your approach in the matchup here. You could start using Leaf Guard to "not kill" Pokemon which can later be stolen as Crobat kills. ( leaving you at risk to SSU to a degree, but thats one less SSU on their Gyarados once it gets down to just Gyarados. ) If you use the Leaf Guard tactic, don't just start off with it. Take at least a prize first, so your ahead in prizes, and force them to over extend into getting a Jumpluff kill. During this attempt to bide your time, start to power up a Luxray GL. This will let you threaten a Gyarados for a OHKO. Well, once you use Crobats and Belt.
By taking early prizes, it allows you to try the "two hit/force SSU" approach. By hitting them once, it forces them to play a bench, and then hit a SSU, which leaves a Pokemon stranded on the bench. Thus, every time they "reload" a Gyarados with SSU, it gives you another kill target. ( Possible complication is if they use an SP Pokemon + PokeTurn, but thats a good reason to use an occasional Leaf Guard to force Crobat/Turn usage, or Lux/Turn usage )
As for the 2 Gyarados approach: I don't actually like that tactic very much. First, limiting it to 60 damage does a couple of bad things. First, it makes it so Luxray GL Lvl X is NOT getting KO'd by Gyarados one hit. ( I mean theoretically yes, but definitely not a worrying % of the time ). It also means to really be killing Jumpluff, your forced to use an Expert Belt, and a Crobat. Now, by using this approach you are clogging your bench. This makes it so Jumpluff can KO Gyarados easier. Its also forcing down Expert Belt, so it forces Gyarados to expose itself to the two prize deficit.
If you really want to secure your Gyarados matchup, with a Lucario GL to give Luxray double weakness, or a Giratina ( Let Loose ) help dramatically. Hitting Giratina after they limit their bench cripples their ability to play benchless as their SSUs and PokeTurns all get shuffled back in. It also " buys a turn" after they Sableye early.
If Jumpluff really wants to beat any of the non awful matchups ( Kingdra, Charizard, etc ) it can definitely mildly adjust the list to do so.
SF Gengar isn't really that relevent vs Jumpluff. If the Jumpluff player is sloppy and doesn't adjust their own game plan to how you approach the matchup, then sure, it can give you an edge. Even with that "edge" over the standard approach, it isn't enough to let you win even close to 50% of the games. Let me point out a few problems.
First, at best, you get one turn of the "huge poltergeist". Now, thats even assuming you get a "huge poltergeist" at all. I run a 3-3 Claydol line, which helps to manage the # of trainers in my hand. I can also use my Supporters unhindered. Toss in the fact I can use Chatot to "set up" past the trainer lock to manually get my evolutions. Regice also serves as a potential "trainer dump". If you think I can't keep my hand down to less than 3 trainers, and keep a Crobat G active to take the hit, your dead wrong.
The next question is, you kill my guy first, and then I just go off normally. Now what? You can't even re-lock my trainers, and my gameplan is unhindered. Being up a prize isn't going to magically make you a favorite vs Jumpluff when your not able to score one hit KOs during the game. If you want to sit there and 2 hit benched Pokemon while I take a prize each turn I'm more then ok with that. I won't even need to take Fainting Spell flips either due to fancy crobat work. I guarantee you that regardless of "approach" that Gengar is this deck's easiest matchup. I've had bad starts, gotten trainer locked, and fallen behind 2 prizes vs a deck running Dusknoir and 2 Mr Mime and still beaten it comfortably. There is no possible way that Gengar, outside of a huge effort JUST to tech vs Jumpluff and ruining most if not all of it's other matchups, beats Jumpluff.
Gyarados: Baby Mario: I know that in the UK Gyarados builds are actually better. I know Tom Hall and Sami Sekkoum both have very good Gyarados lists, running the Luxray, and a bunch of Warp Energy. Some of the top players have done the same, but they also don't usually choose to run Gyarados, A vast majority of the ones I'd seen from States, and those my friends have played vs around the country, do not yet run these gusting effects. Luxray is a fantastic addition to Gyarados. Reversal is simply worse than Luxray.
In the instance where the player ( I'm sorry I forget the user name, but I can't scroll back a page to check ) killed 3 support Pokemon before getting blown out by the near solo- Gyarados problem. That can be avoided by not killing all of the support Pokemon so aggressively too. You can really adjust your approach in the matchup here. You could start using Leaf Guard to "not kill" Pokemon which can later be stolen as Crobat kills. ( leaving you at risk to SSU to a degree, but thats one less SSU on their Gyarados once it gets down to just Gyarados. ) If you use the Leaf Guard tactic, don't just start off with it. Take at least a prize first, so your ahead in prizes, and force them to over extend into getting a Jumpluff kill. During this attempt to bide your time, start to power up a Luxray GL. This will let you threaten a Gyarados for a OHKO. Well, once you use Crobats and Belt.
By taking early prizes, it allows you to try the "two hit/force SSU" approach. By hitting them once, it forces them to play a bench, and then hit a SSU, which leaves a Pokemon stranded on the bench. Thus, every time they "reload" a Gyarados with SSU, it gives you another kill target. ( Possible complication is if they use an SP Pokemon + PokeTurn, but thats a good reason to use an occasional Leaf Guard to force Crobat/Turn usage, or Lux/Turn usage )
As for the 2 Gyarados approach: I don't actually like that tactic very much. First, limiting it to 60 damage does a couple of bad things. First, it makes it so Luxray GL Lvl X is NOT getting KO'd by Gyarados one hit. ( I mean theoretically yes, but definitely not a worrying % of the time ). It also means to really be killing Jumpluff, your forced to use an Expert Belt, and a Crobat. Now, by using this approach you are clogging your bench. This makes it so Jumpluff can KO Gyarados easier. Its also forcing down Expert Belt, so it forces Gyarados to expose itself to the two prize deficit.
If you really want to secure your Gyarados matchup, with a Lucario GL to give Luxray double weakness, or a Giratina ( Let Loose ) help dramatically. Hitting Giratina after they limit their bench cripples their ability to play benchless as their SSUs and PokeTurns all get shuffled back in. It also " buys a turn" after they Sableye early.
If Jumpluff really wants to beat any of the non awful matchups ( Kingdra, Charizard, etc ) it can definitely mildly adjust the list to do so.
The_A_Team
New Member
While everything you said is wonderful, Jumplux still has a hard time against Gyarados. Even with only 2 Magikarps in the discard pile, Gyarados still gets OHKOs with PlusPower, Buck's, and Flash Bites. Plus, this gives you godly rebuild, and OHKOs against Jumplux's 2HKOs. Even with Expert Belt, Gyarados still has equal power, if not the advantage over Jumplux.
SSU, again, 2 Gyarados strategy. You don't need to bench an extra Pokemon to SSU then. Plus, even if you do bench a Crobat, Poke Turn? It doesn't have to stay in play and the flash bite will prove useful eventually.
As to your defence, even while some players WILL be playing Gyarados less experiencedly, or have less experienced lists or whatever, that'll only get your Jumplux to Top Cut at best. Once you Top 32/16, you're playing experienced players almost for sure.
And with Jumplux's speedy start, you knock out their Sableye, preventing Bench Rot from reaching unmanageable highs.
Love the deck, and the article, just suggesting some things.
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prodigal_fanboy
New Member
I stand by my contention. Gyarados is essentially similar to Bitterblossom or Beedrill: it represents a strong clock, but one that does not begin ticking immediately.
It takes fewer resources to get a stage 1 in play relative to a stage 2, but when the stage 1 is predicated on establishing a combo to deal significant damage and the stage two isn't, the stage two is faster in terms of how soon it can create the clock. Aggro v. Combo.
@ Chris -- I've been fooling with the deck. The thought you put into explaining each choice is evident in the handling of the deck, despite my inability to replicate your 90% T1 Jumpluff metric.
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Jumpluff has a "hard time" against Gyarados if the Jumpluff player plays the most basic, straight forward approach that can be taken. If an average Jumpluff player plays against an average Gyarados player, the Gyarados player will win a majority of the games. If an experienced Jumpluff player plays vs an experienced Gyarados player, the Jumpluff player will win a majority of the games. As the testing continued of the matchup, each deck would find "quirks" in the matchup they could exploit to gain an advantage until the other deck adapted and found the next secret to swinging the matchup back. Currently, Jumpluff, playing at its best, is able to have the edge over Gyarados playing at it's best.
I'm a bit busy for a few days, but I'll gladly play some games on Apprentice vs people to prove my argument if they'd like. They'd need Hamachi to connect with me though. I do appreciate that even those who do not agree with some of my points are being polite and constructive with their commentary ( well, most people ).
I'm a bit busy for a few days, but I'll gladly play some games on Apprentice vs people to prove my argument if they'd like. They'd need Hamachi to connect with me though. I do appreciate that even those who do not agree with some of my points are being polite and constructive with their commentary ( well, most people ).
spazcrackers
New Member
Amazing read,on one of my favorite decks! Best of luck at Regionals Chris!
-Brent
-Brent
decent list imo
what happens if you have your regi out and they vapor sweep you? also how do adress them dragging out your claydol with luring flame then just sniping your bench over and over again outside of warpoint or a ssu which is 50/50 at best? This i find is always this decks weakness and you should never overlook a card because of its over hyped attack.
what happens if you have your regi out and they vapor sweep you? also how do adress them dragging out your claydol with luring flame then just sniping your bench over and over again outside of warpoint or a ssu which is 50/50 at best? This i find is always this decks weakness and you should never overlook a card because of its over hyped attack.
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