Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Legal shuffling?

The critical thing is that after any declumping or placement of cards in the deck is that you then shuffle.

Shuffle means randomize.
It may undo your nice spread of cards, it may not.
That is what makes the earlier action OK, because you are then shuffling.

You can sort your cards alphabetically, if you want.
As long as you shuffle them afterwards.

So what do we need to do after any of these actions?

Anyone?
 
This may go down as one of the most irrelevant responses ever. What you are refering to is stacking the deck in order to give you exact cards. Ensuring you dont have a clumped deck is no where near the same thing. My steelix often has 7 energy attached at the end of a game. Likely, a benched blissey may have 2 dce. So, if I dont declump, 9 out of 11 cards may be energy. It is in my best interest, for the sake of my hand, not randomization, that my deck gets declumped. A much better analogy for you to use would have been to say that the previous winning hand was four of a kind with 3 players. If I dont declump, and we assume the 4 of a kind are on top, that means im dealing someone a pair, not me. Of course its in my best interest to shuffle the cards for my hands sake





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Well, if you had read the first post correctly, you would realize that the thread starter specifically mentions that he wants to increase his chances of starting with specific cards by placing them in certain positions during the shuffle. Even if that's not outright stacking, it is at least an attempt at compromising the randomness of the draw, which is just as bad. Box of Fail's post was dead-on, to which you replied, "That's ridiculous."

You should note that I cited an official ruling that says you are allowed to break up clumps of cards present in your deck. However, that is not the goal of the thread starter.
 
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...It IS perfectly legal to rearrange cards in your deck in the middle of a search/before shuffling at the beginning of the game to insure that there are no undesirable clumps of cards present in your deck (10 Energy in a row, all 4 of your starter Pokemon are clumped together, etc.), as long as you are timely about it.

As long as you shuffle the deck after doing so and offer a cut/shuffle to your opponent, it's fine...

The example implied a single riffle shuffle after de-clumping. That is not sufficient. (And if you you see your opponent looking at his deck and moving a few cards before his final shuffle, how do you know he is de-clumping? He might be deliberately clumping, putting a Stage 1 right after a Basic, putting two Poke Drawer together, etc. Then a single riffle shuffle would likely leave those 2 cards together.) Whenever anyone looks at their deck and moves cards, the deck should be thoroughly shuffled afterwards.
 
The example implied a single riffle shuffle after de-clumping. That is not sufficient. (And if you you see your opponent looking at his deck and moving a few cards before his final shuffle, how do you know he is de-clumping? He might be deliberately clumping, putting a Stage 1 right after a Basic, putting two Poke Drawer together, etc. Then a single riffle shuffle would likely leave those 2 cards together.) Whenever anyone looks at their deck and moves cards, the deck should be thoroughly shuffled afterwards.

Ugh. You bolded text that was explaning that a certain action is legal, to which you replied, "I disagree." I cited an official ruling backing up the other person. I never said that the deck should not be shuffled after a player rearranges cards in his deck. You have a right to shuffle or cut your opponents deck before the match starts and after every deck search your opponent performs. If you are unhappy with the randomization, simply exercise that right. That, however, doesn't change the fact that your opponent has the right to rearrange cards in his deck.

Am I getting trolled hard today or can these people just not read?
 
The example implied a single riffle shuffle after de-clumping. That is not sufficient. (And if you you see your opponent looking at his deck and moving a few cards before his final shuffle, how do you know he is de-clumping? He might be deliberately clumping, putting a Stage 1 right after a Basic, putting two Poke Drawer together, etc. Then a single riffle shuffle would likely leave those 2 cards together.) Whenever anyone looks at their deck and moves cards, the deck should be thoroughly shuffled afterwards.

Can you read, or are you just trolling now? Re read pokepops post, and THEN come back an reply to the topic.

A few shuffles after declumping (Which we have already determined is a legal action), make the deck random. What can't you people understand that while the deck should be random, you don't need to shoot your self in the foot by allowing clumps. The deck is randomized after you shuffle after declumping, so I don't see what your problem is.

In your example, what the heck does it matter if these cards are still together? It's actually unlikely that they will still be together after a rifle shuffle followed by an overhand shuffle. And even if they still are after that, your opponent cutting the deck makes this completely pointless to argue about, as it's unlikely you will draw both of these cards. Furthermore, due to the nature of the game, you will very likely be going back into your deck the next turn, and undoing what you've done anyway.

---------- Post added 03/16/2011 at 09:36 PM ----------

Let's say I do this then.

8 pile shuffle, purposely putting Tomb/Tomb/Tomb/Tomb/Gastly/Gastly/Gastly/Gaslty as the bottom card in each of those piles, I then shuffle the piles together in a random order. Is that considered illegal?

Not at all.

Again, the key phrase, "I shuffle the piles together in a random order". Furthermore, the key word "I shuffle[d]". As long as you randomize it afterward, you can do what ever the heck you want with your deck before hand.
 
Pikabruce is not wrong in what he says.
A token shuffle that for the most part maintains the order of the cards in the deck is not a sufficient shuffle.
I didn't write "shuffle" so many times to indicate a slight, token shuffle.
 
I was not implying that only a simple shuffle would be sufficient either. I was saying that you should cut the deck into it's self several times, mixed with overhand shuffles and cuts. I always go through this process after declumping, as I'm very paranoid about making sure my deck is 100% random. Just ask anyone who's judged me about my weird shuffling habits. :p
 
The critical thing is that after any declumping or placement of cards in the deck is that you then shuffle.

Shuffle means randomize.
It may undo your nice spread of cards, it may not.
That is what makes the earlier action OK, because you are then shuffling.

You can sort your cards alphabetically, if you want.
As long as you shuffle them afterwards.

So what do we need to do after any of these actions?

Anyone?

Offer your deck to your opponent to cut or shuffle.
 
Either 6 pile + 5 random shuffles, or just repetitive random shuffles like I do.

I was talking about mid game situations, this would not be particle. Just do overhand shuffles, as well as cutting the deck into its self over and over again. This will do the job just fine, in far less time.

---------- Post added 03/16/2011 at 10:10 PM ----------

Offer your deck to your opponent to cut or shuffle.

Speaking of opponents shuffling decks, can I refuse to allow my opponent to shuffle, or request that a judge shuffle in their place if felt that they either were trying to peek at my deck (yes, I have seen people do this, not to me, but to others), or were just really bad at shuffling and might damage my cards?
 
It IS perfectly legal to rearrange cards in your deck in the middle of a search/before shuffling at the beginning of the game to insure that there are no undesirable clumps of cards present in your deck (10 Energy in a row, all 4 of your starter Pokemon are clumped together, etc.), as long as you are timely about it.

alol @ these kind of remarks. Let me make this perfectly clear: When you are "declumping" a deck you are doing one of two things:

1) Cheating
2) Wasting time

Whether or not you are cheating or wasting time depends on your shuffle afterwards. If it isn't thorough, you're a cheater. If it is thorough, rearranging the order of cards was pointless, and a waste of time. (Note: I have never played against someone who rearranged cards in their deck and then performed what I would call an adequate shuffle.)

The purpose of a shuffle is to randomize a deck. What does randomize mean? It means that every single card in your deck is equally likely to be in any place as any other card. You couldn't have any reason to think one card would be more likely to be next to any one other particular card than another.

Whether you are flat out stacking your deck by putting desirable cards together (such as moving a Gastly next to a Haunter), or separating cards you prefer not to have together (such as energy cards), both are cheating. The bottom line is that sometimes energy cards (or other undesirable pairs of cards) do stick together. That is part of the game. You simply need to shuffle your deck thoroughly and accept this as part of the game - not try to remove it.

I can't even tell you how many people in the Pokémon TCG stack their deck. The worst part of it is some of them don't even realize they are cheating. If you're rearranging your deck against me, you can be sure a judge is coming to issue a time extension for the 10 minutes I am forced to spend shuffling your deck.
 
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alol @ these kind of remarks. Let me make this perfectly clear: When you are "declumping" a deck you are doing one of two things:

1) Cheating
2) Wasting time

Whether or not you are cheating or wasting time depends on your shuffle afterwards. If it isn't thorough, you're a cheater. If it is thorough, rearranging the order of cards was pointless, and a waste of time. (Note: I have never played against someone who rearranged cards in their deck and then performed what I would call an adequate shuffle.)

The purpose of a shuffle is to randomize a deck. What does randomize mean? It means that every single card in your deck is equally likely to be in any place as any other card. You couldn't have any reason to think one card would be more likely to be next to any one other particular card than another.

Whether you are flat out stacking your deck by putting desirable cards together (such as moving a Gastly next to a Haunter), or separating cards you prefer not to have together (such as energy cards), both are cheating. The bottom line is that sometimes energy cards (or other undesirable pairs of cards) do stick together. That is part of the game. You simply need to shuffle your deck thoroughly and accept this as part of the game - not try to remove it.

I can't even tell you how many people in the Pokémon TCG stack their deck. The worst part of it is some of them don't even realize they are cheating. If you're rearranging your deck against me, you can be sure a judge is coming to issue a time extension for the 10 minutes I am forced to spend shuffling your deck.

And you, along with others, were shown to be wrong. Declumping, when done in a timely manner during the search is OK as long as an adequate shuffle is performed thereafter. (Unless you call Pokepop's rulings inaccurate) Declumping is neither cheating or a waste of time. It only crosses the line if time is exceeded on the search itself and/or a poor shuffle is performed.

As you correctly point out though, the oppo always has the right to shuffle an oppo's deck after a search and shuffle. Ergo, the deck should be randomized for further play. Decks do naturally clump up over the course of a game, match and event. Thats the luck sometimes. Some people think that a proper shuffle would "cure" this, others think a quick declump of a couple cards, followed by a proper shuffle works too. We all know that either way, the cards can reclump! Bottom line, proper shuffles = randomized deck = fair play.

Keith
 
Lawman, while declumping isn't cheating (if done properly), it truly is a waste of time as Ness said. The theory behind shuffling to to FULLY randomize your deck. As Ness said, that means every card is as equally likely to be in a certain place in a deck as any other card, meaning "clumps" of cards can, and likely will, happen after a proper shuffle.

The only use that declumping has it to esure that the sleeves themselves don't stick to other sleeves and as such, are not randomized, and that's taken care of by a simple pile shuffle. In other words, I think any declumping beyond pile shuffling truly is a waste of time.
 
alol @ these kind of remarks. Let me make this perfectly clear: When you are "declumping" a deck you are doing one of two things:

1) Cheating
2) Wasting time

Whether or not you are cheating or wasting time depends on your shuffle afterwards. If it isn't thorough, you're a cheater. If it is thorough, rearranging the order of cards was pointless, and a waste of time. (Note: I have never played against someone who rearranged cards in their deck and then performed what I would call an adequate shuffle.)

The purpose of a shuffle is to randomize a deck. What does randomize mean? It means that every single card in your deck is equally likely to be in any place as any other card. You couldn't have any reason to think one card would be more likely to be next to any one other particular card than another.

Whether you are flat out stacking your deck by putting desirable cards together (such as moving a Gastly next to a Haunter), or separating cards you prefer not to have together (such as energy cards), both are cheating. The bottom line is that sometimes energy cards (or other undesirable pairs of cards) do stick together. That is part of the game. You simply need to shuffle your deck thoroughly and accept this as part of the game - not try to remove it.

I can't even tell you how many people in the Pokémon TCG stack their deck. The worst part of it is some of them don't even realize they are cheating. If you're rearranging your deck against me, you can be sure a judge is coming to issue a time extension for the 10 minutes I am forced to spend shuffling your deck.
lol @ the World Champion trolling me.
lol @ the World Champion telling me that I'm cheating when I can cite official rulings in my favor.
lol @ the World Champion telling me that I'm wasting time when he's the one who wants a 10 minute time extension.

Now, I totally understand where you're coming from. Clumps of cards DO naturally occur. But let's back this up a second. If I see a clump of 5 Energy Cards in my deck, I can A) take 3 seconds to fan them out in my hand and shove them back into my deck separated at random intervals, or B) spend twice as long shuffling because I'm trying to break up the clump of cards. And you're going to argue that I'm wasting time? Please.

Secondly, what do you consider an adequate shuffle? If I shuffle my deck a few times and offer it to you to shuffle a few times, that would be plenty, in my opinion.


Thirdly, let's take a look at this:
The purpose of a shuffle is to randomize a deck. What does randomize mean? It means that every single card in your deck is equally likely to be in any place as any other card. You couldn't have any reason to think one card would be more likely to be next to any one other particular card than another.
Actually, the word for that would be equality. Any given card has an equal chance of being in any particular spot as any other given card. The definition of random would be, in a word, "unpredictable." So, when I'm searching through my deck and see 5+ Energy Cards clumped together, after my shuffle, I know there is going to be a good chance that there will still be smaller clumps of cards present. Knowing this, when I draw 1 Energy Card, I'll know that I might be seeing another pretty soon. Would you like to explain how that is unpredictable? It's not, because I would have a reason to think one card would be more likely to be next to one other particular card than another, to use your own words.


Come at me, bro. =\

EDIT: I intentionally clumped 6 cards together and shuffled my deck for 10 minutes (I know I'm being trolled, but I just wanted to test it for my own reference), using various shuffling techniques, including topping it off with a single cut at the end. Results: Near the bottom of my deck, there was a clump consisting of 2 copies of the card, followed by 1 copy only 7 cards away from it. As I went deeper in my deck, there was a another clump of 2 copies at about the top half point. The fact of the matter is, while you can break up a big clump of cards from physically touching each other, it's going to be hard to get those cards far apart from each other, and even harder to separate 2 individual copies of a card from touching each other.


Speaking of opponents shuffling decks, can I refuse to allow my opponent to shuffle, or request that a judge shuffle in their place if felt that they either were trying to peek at my deck (yes, I have seen people do this, not to me, but to others), or were just really bad at shuffling and might damage my cards?
Yes, you can.

20. Shuffling

Each player’s deck is expected to be fully randomized at the start of each game and during the game, as card effects require. In order to achieve randomness, players are allowed to riffle, pile, or otherwise shuffle their decks until they are satisfied that the deck is random. Randomization must be done in the presence of the player’s opponent and must be done in a reasonable amount of time. Care should be taken to assure that the cards in the deck are not harmed or revealed during the shuffle.
20

After the shuffle, the deck must be offered to the player’s opponent to be cut once. Cutting the deck consists of creating two separate stacks of cards by removing a portion of the top of the deck, and then placing it under the remaining portion. Players should take care to not reveal any of their opponent’s cards while cutting. Cutting into more than two stacks is considered a shuffle.

Instead of cutting, the opponent may choose to shuffle the deck. This shuffle should be brief, and when it concludes, the deck’s owner is allowed to cut the deck once as described above. Players should take care when shuffling an opponent’s deck, as the cards in that deck are not the shuffling player’s property. At this point, the deck should be sufficiently randomized to both players’ satisfaction.

If either player still does not feel that either deck is sufficiently randomized, or if a player wishes to not offer his or her deck to an opponent for randomization, a judge must be called over to shuffle the deck(s) in question. No player is allowed to shuffle or cut after the judge’s shuffle.

Players engaging in questionable shuffling methods may be subject to the Unsporting Conduct section of the Penalty Guidelines. Players are strongly encouraged to shuffle their opponent’s deck at Premier Events.
 
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How many people here believe that they can fully randomise a deck in under a minute? To start with a given arrangement of cards and after their shuffle end up with a completely uncorrelated arrangement?

Ness is almost correct. Declumping could be cheating, wasting time, or part of a players best effort to randomise their deck.

The question of intent then arises. As intent is tricky the practical approach is to indicate what behaviours are acceptable. To accept that people do not shuffle perfectly.

Shuffling is one of the few areas where online/computer based games are superior to real life play.
 
And you, along with others, were shown to be wrong. Declumping, when done in a timely manner during the search is OK as long as an adequate shuffle is performed thereafter. (Unless you call Pokepop's rulings inaccurate) Declumping is neither cheating or a waste of time. It only crosses the line if time is exceeded on the search itself and/or a poor shuffle is performed.

As you correctly point out though, the oppo always has the right to shuffle an oppo's deck after a search and shuffle. Ergo, the deck should be randomized for further play. Decks do naturally clump up over the course of a game, match and event. Thats the luck sometimes. Some people think that a proper shuffle would "cure" this, others think a quick declump of a couple cards, followed by a proper shuffle works too. We all know that either way, the cards can reclump! Bottom line, proper shuffles = randomized deck = fair play.

Keith

Actually, Ness is 100% correct.

We, staff in Pokemon events, only tolerate declumping.
As long as it is followed by a proper shuffle.
Ness is correct that the following shuffle should totally randomize whatever was done.

POP was considering making declumping against the rules and the only reason that it wasn't was because it would have been impossible for staff to enforce.
But, Ness is right. It's a waste of time if done correctly and cheating if not done correctly.

Just because something is allowed/tolerated doesn't mean that its a good thing or a productive thing.
 
Am I getting trolled hard today or can these people just not read?

lol @ the World Champion trolling me.
lol @ the World Champion telling me that I'm cheating when I can cite official rulings in my favor.
lol @ the World Champion telling me that I'm wasting time when he's the one who wants a 10 minute time extension.

Please stop calling other members valid posts "trolls" just because you disagree with them.
It is trolling in its own right.
 
Well, if you had read the first post correctly, you would realize that the thread starter specifically mentions that he wants to increase his chances of starting with specific cards by placing them in certain positions during the shuffle. Even if that's not outright stacking, it is at least an attempt at compromising the randomness of the draw, which is just as bad. Box of Fail's post was dead-on, to which you replied, "That's ridiculous."

You should note that I cited an official ruling that says you are allowed to break up clumps of cards present in your deck. However, that is not the goal of the thread starter.

I did read yours correctly, you misread. My first response was to BoF saying that premise of maximizing your chances of a good hand should have no part of shuffling. I said that was ridiculous, of course that is a huge part of the reason of ANY shuffle, especially into piles. Riffling or standard 2 pile mixing is sufficient for randomizing your deck. If that is true, why would anyone actually take the time to pile shuffle? The purpose of pile shuffling is to INTENTIONALLY declump, which is aimed at giving you a better hand. Then, you came back and implied that i said it was ok to stack in order to give yourself an exact hand, which I never said. Of course that is cheating.
 
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