Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Mario: Why?

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Clear said:
KG, face it, Mario cannot win without complete utter luck, there is skill involved, but most of it is luck because Mario does not have the draw power to draw out of bad starts. If you no energy, you're doomed; If you have no supporters, you're doomed. If you have no Lucario by T2-3, people who play speed decks will have already outsped you.

Like I said, good decks need to do good no matter what. They at least need to get that bad hand under control to survive because swiss rounds is only 1 game. I used to play set-up decks because I love the power and control, but all those bad hands... I can't do anything about it. My luck is like... I draw 3 Stage 2s in 3 turns in the opening, and the second game, I draw into 3 RCs. Luck-wise, I'm a even little worst than Kant (I mean playing out of 3 Electabuzz starts is ridicious, even for him) you cannot do anything with those hands. Right now, I don't have the skill yet either to play out of bad hands.

So, let's move on to your "Blissey Counter": Machamp PK, well, let's see, 2 Energies for... 40, 70 in Blissey's case, dead if Lake Boundary is on... all this adds up to? A big waste of time and resources.

first of all, what does 70 do a full-health Bliss? She can still happy chance another 50-60 in that stage before she dies. and because she is SO easy to set up, another one is coming, most likely, Blissey or not. Machamp will not be able to take the second shot so easily, let alone get another shot at the second guy. Since Machamp is harder to set up than a 2 dollar steak, you basically run out of steam. Unless you have another guy all ready (Lucario, namely), but eventually. when you are fighting against Blisseys, you cannot hold on for so long because you would know how long can the Blissey variant last.

Lake Boundary, if you play that, you dug your own grave for your DP Machamps and Lucarios, at least in my Blissey variant.

I'm confident that Mario will eventually, sooner than you think it would, show its ineffectiveness against faster and stronger decks that are out there. Mario is not a deck, it isn't then, it isn't now, and it will never be.
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First of all there is a card called Castaway that gets energy. Name the deck that is faster than Mario, people bash this deck with no solution or ideas. Maybe in the future Mario will louse it's power, but it won over 35 BR, your saying that all thoes winnings where luck? Mario is a deck, if you don't like, good for you, but saying that is really ignorant.
 
Sure, I'm somehow less of a player because I won't allow some kid to play a poorly designed card with obvious flaws. What's next, criticising me for telling a player not to play blastoise with blissey because it's just a poor combo? No, I'm being an elitist because I'm wrecking his deck =P
 
Clear said:
My responses are in bold.

KG, face it, Mario cannot win without complete utter luck, there is skill involved, but most of it is luck because Mario does not have the draw power to draw out of bad starts. If you no energy, you're doomed; If you have no supporters, you're doomed. If you have no Lucario by T2-3, people who play speed decks will have already outsped you.

I'm sorry, but can you explain to me what deck has the magical ability to draw out of a bad start? The last time I played with Empoleon (a consistant deck by many player's standards), my starting hand was: Water Energy, Water Energy, Holon's Castform, Battle Frontier, Battle Frontier, Scramble Energy, and Windstorm. Was there anything magical about that deck that helped me "draw" out of such a bad situation? No. The success of one's deck can nearly be anticipated by its trainer line, specifically the number of supporters one's deck has in it. I think this is what you're getting at with your comment, but if you think that KG's Mario list doesn't have what it takes to get out of a bad start, I can assure you that there are lists that can. As I said earlier on this thread, I have almost never had a bad start with my Mario list.

Like I said, good decks need to do good no matter what. They at least need to get that bad hand under control to survive because swiss rounds is only 1 game. I used to play set-up decks because I love the power and control, but all those bad hands... I can't do anything about it. My luck is like... I draw 3 Stage 2s in 3 turns in the opening, and the second game, I draw into 3 RCs. Luck-wise, I'm a even little worst than Kant (I mean playing out of 3 Electabuzz starts is ridicious, even for him) you cannot do anything with those hands. Right now, I don't have the skill yet either to play out of bad hands.

Even though I'm a skilled player, if you gave me a deck with a horrible trainer list, chances are I'll do bad. All the in-game skill in the world can't pull you out of a bad hand, but that's why deckbuilding is such an important part of this game. I looked at KG's Mario list and changed it to my style of play, and I can honestly tell you that the deck sets up. Machamp isn't even needed until late game, after you've pressed offensively with Lucario. If you can find me another high HP Pokemon that can do 70 damage for one Basic Energy, I will certainly change my Mario list up. Until then, Machamp is the only effective Pokemon that allows an overpowering swarm with Lucario. Everything else that looks good with Lucario requires 2+ energy to satisfy decent damage output mid to late-game.

So, let's move on to your "Blissey Counter": Machamp PK, well, let's see, 2 Energies for... 40, 70 in Blissey's case, dead if Lake Boundary is on... all this adds up to? A big waste of time and resources.

I'm not a big fan of the PK Machamp either. Although Blissey is a good card, it still has a hard time with Mario. I only lost to Blissey once in tournament play (yes, NC had its own appearance of TRUKs), but that was because a major component of my deck was prized (Lucario Lv.X). Aside from that, I could have T1'd my opponent if I had the fighting energy for Riolu. It would have been my first T1 ever...

first of all, what does 70 do a full-health Bliss? She can still happy chance another 50-60 in that stage before she dies. and because she is SO easy to set up, another one is coming, most likely, Blissey or not. Machamp will not be able to take the second shot so easily, let alone get another shot at the second guy. Since Machamp is harder to set up than a 2 dollar steak, you basically run out of steam. Unless you have another guy all ready (Lucario, namely), but eventually. when you are fighting against Blisseys, you cannot hold on for so long because you would know how long can the Blissey variant last.

This is true, but this is true of Blissey in itself. It's a good deck, of course. I feel you're speaking more to KG at this moment than anyone.

Lake Boundary, if you play that, you dug your own grave for your DP Machamps and Lucarios, at least in my Blissey variant.

I'm confident that Mario will eventually, sooner than you think it would, show its ineffectiveness against faster and stronger decks that are out there. Mario is not a deck, it isn't then, it isn't now, and it will never be.

People will learn if it's a bad choice in time. It seems that for Battle Roads at least people learned that Mario was a good choice for the metagame. Many people knew about the deck, played it in tournaments, and won with it. You could say that just as many people lost with it, but what would have happened if everyone knew about the TRUK decks? So then we have the idea that TRUK decks are good because the elites played with them and nobody else. So then... there's Ambush...

Once again I'll say the same thing. People should understand that Mario is a deck and that so far it has seemingly been a good deck choice. I can understand why people are frustrated with the deck, as it appears to be such a stupidly simple idea that most people don't even try to find a strategy behind it. However, it's a fact that the deck has won many Battle Roads tournaments. And if you say that Battle Roads don't matter, stop taking TRUK decks into account when you talk about the metagame.

If you disagree that Mario is a good deck, that's fine. But at least respect those who feel that Mario is a good deck. Repeating the same unhelpful thing over and over again ("Mario is not a deck") isn't going to do anything. Saying that the deck relies on T1 flips is nonsense (otherwise, I would have bombed during Battle Roads). And if you have a problem with the supposed trainer line of the deck, there's always room for individual improvement.
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Articjedi said:
Sure, I'm somehow less of a player because I won't allow some kid to play a poorly designed card with obvious flaws. What's next, criticising me for telling a player not to play blastoise with blissey because it's just a poor combo? No, I'm being an elitist because I'm wrecking his deck =P

I can understand what you're saying here, but have you not seen the success the deck has had? Yes, there were people who lost with Mario as well, but you can say this about any deck. Give a bad player a TRUK deck and they probably won't win a tournament with it. In the first weekend of Battle Roads I saw one guy go dead last in the first tournament with Infernape/Magmortar combo, then get into the top 4 the next day with Mario. The guy hardly knew how to play the game and got into the top 4. Now, my gripe is that the deck apparently doesn't require that much skill to play, but how can you deny the deck as being good when a person who barely knows the rules of the games does so well? I remember back to the days of Dark Slowking from TRR, when a kid in the midwest or something like that won Regionals... it was his first Pokemon tournament ever. :rolleyes:

I happen to not like Mario because it's too simple for being so good, not because it isn't good. T1 wins aside, the deck does an excellent job of swarming with Lucario while at the same time offering nice damage output mid to late-game. And if Mario really was as bad as people say, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have registered on nobody's radar and nobody would even feel the need to talk about it. You don't see a "CroBar: Why?" article anywhere, do you?
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guys, the reason that Mario won battle roads is that there were only Mario (mostly) in them. If you have 1 person playing Mario in a battle road of random people, of course it will win. If you have 5 people playing Mario in the division, of course Mario will win.

Mario is not a good deck, a deck is suppose to be good. By that statement, Mario is not a deck.
 
IMHO fundamentally it's better for the growth of the game to suggest good ideas than it is to tear down other ideas good or bad. The more accessible you make the game for all players ... new & old ... competitive & casual ... the stronger the game becomes as a whole. When you make negative comments, no matter how true or justified, it robs SOMEONE somewhere of their enjoyment of the game. Instead of saying "that's a bad card & you shouldn't play it...." it's far better to say "try that out and see how it works ... then try THIS and see if it works better for you." That’s the kind of tone that seems to be fundamentally missing from much of this discussion. The comments about "sheep" players and "enlightening" the board as if we were mostly benighted misanthropes here or the outright attacks like "Mario isn’t a deck" just tear things apart. The most productive parts of this thread have been where folks have talked about real alternatives and how to run decks.

Also, this whole mess reminds me of Einstein arguing that "God does not play dice with the universe!" No one can deny that Einstein was one of the most brilliant minds of the last century with an almost unbelievable understanding of the physics theory. However he could not accept Quantum Mechanics randomness. It did not fit with either his worldview or his understanding of theory to that point. This kind of thing happens again and again in science. Either a new working theory comes along or experimental results go against something established ... and inevitably a number very bright minds fight it, holding with their prior experience and understanding. This was one of my first thoughts when reading the OP and again when reading some of the other posts here. Maybe it doesn’t fit some folks personal experience ... or maybe it doesn’t fit nice theories about how decks should work ... or maybe it just seems silly to some folks ... but there is empirical evidence that Mario works to this point. It’s not just about one run at the Grinders or even one T16 finish at Nationals. There are a huge number of wins from all over the world since the deck's publications. Mario is one of the top finishers for this past round of BRs alone even with SUPER BLISSEY & other Lucario variants in format.
 
Clear, you know about all the wins now? LOL, ErikNance actually won a battle road with Mario. So now his (our) area is bad? Or there were a lot of Mario there?

LOL Please don't try anymore Clear, you keep digging yourself a bigger hole the more you talk on subjects you have no clue about.
 
Clear said:
guys, the reason that Mario won battle roads is that there were only Mario (mostly) in them. If you have 1 person playing Mario in a battle road of random people, of course it will win. If you have 5 people playing Mario in the division, of course Mario will win.

Mario is not a good deck, a deck is suppose to be good. By that statement, Mario is not a deck.
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Thats all you got?
 
Clear said:
guys, the reason that Mario won battle roads is that there were only Mario (mostly) in them. If you have 1 person playing Mario in a battle road of random people, of course it will win. If you have 5 people playing Mario in the division, of course Mario will win.

Mario is not a good deck, a deck is suppose to be good. By that statement, Mario is not a deck.
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Out of curiosity, what deck do you play?
 
Sparta and Clear must be buddies...their tone is about the same. The thread is not "stupid". Most of the discussion after the article itself has been entertaining and thoughtful.

Clear's current deck (according to his profile) is "Blissey Wall".

It is amusing that people dont get the concept that "mario" IS a DECK. It has won in multiple areas. It had 2 t16 finishes in the MA division @ US Nats 2007. (400+ player tourney...THE toughest field ever assembled!)

As Erik Nance stated....IF the deck was sooooo bad....it would have barely been a blip on the radar screen, then fade away to nothing land. IF the "elites" were truly interested in "helping" or in "shooting down" bad deck choices...there would have been the multiple threads like this for all the deck ideas thrown out there. There have been some atrocious deck ideas in the deck help area. You can not say that about Mario. It is time to move on folks....Mario will only go away when it is no longer VIABLE in whichever metagame that develops.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Clear said:
guys, the reason that Mario won battle roads is that there were only Mario (mostly) in them. If you have 1 person playing Mario in a battle road of random people, of course it will win. If you have 5 people playing Mario in the division, of course Mario will win.

Mario is not a good deck, a deck is suppose to be good. By that statement, Mario is not a deck.
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Where is your region/area of play?? Obv., you dont see Mario very much. The deck has won in a diverse metagame. The deck has won ag'st very good players and fields. Get your facts straight please before you throw something out there as the "truth". :nonono:

Keith
 
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