Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

National’s Participant Compensation: A Suggestion to PUI

GymLeaderPhil said:
There has been numorous problems with the TMS Program since it's release. There was a list of bugs in the program awhile back on the board, don't know where exactly, I'm sure if I had some time I'd run a search for it. My point is, Pokemon USA has known about these problems with TMS and have virtually done little to improve on it, aside from monthly minor releases that solve only two or three minor problems.

It is the program designer's fault for not testing the program and extending the limits of the software beyond 98 unique players. It is Pokemon USA's fault for relying on untested technology and failing to put money behind fixing the problems


mewsmom said:
So who else ran a tourney with more than 98 players to see what bugs needed to be worked out? I think TX has one of the largest records and it was less then that. But my point to stay on topic, Give PUI a break. They've had less than a year to take over, build from scratch what Wizards has had years to master, create and organize many events with trips at stake, get out several new sets and so on.


First off this post is not to argue the facts of what happen or didn’t happen at Nationals, but I feel I need to post things that I know. Since Monday morning when I saw the post about Nationals on the boards and heard about the problems with TMS 1.16 and not letting more then 98 player in a tournament, I have been play testing the program for the past 5 days for 2 or 3 hours a day trying to figure out why it crashed. Not because PUI asked me to, but because I am a PTO and have to know how the tournament software works and what problems there is if any with it. Now PUI knows I have been doing this and I have been passing on my finds to them and the type of tournaments that I am mock running on TMS to see if I can get it to crash. They have even given me a couple of suggestions on different types of formats to try out. I have run numerous event with 140+ players with it as Swiss pods, age-modified, and even using age-modified when all the players are in the same age group. I have added players with byes, drop players from the tournaments, added new players, and even added drop players. Most of the mock tournament ran are at least 10 or more rounds, with anywhere to 4 or 5 more rounds of the play offs. From all this TMS 1.16 NEVER crashed on me once. I went over this suppose 98 player limit every tournament and didn’t have one single problem.

I was able to crash the TMS software once. To get the system to crash I had to personally go into the player database and corrupt the file so TMS would not work. Now to me this would not be looked at as TMS crashing, because I had to physically go into it and mess up the system and date to make it crash. This is the only way I have found to make it crash so far is to corrupt the player data on purpose. This is the only way I have been able to crash it, but I know the software is touchy and can crash at anytime.
 
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Sabotage on purpose!? That had to be the worse choice of words. You were not at the event nor were you there working the machines. I don’t care how many TEST tournaments you run you will never be able to recreate it. It must be nice to sit on that throne and pass judgment on those who were there busting their butts trying to get the software to treat the entire player base equal. OH the assumed problem of 99 player limit isn't and wasn't the issue, but why ask the people who were sitting there in front of the computer.

People want to blame us for the failure of the software and they want to say we deliberately pick players to ‘screw” over, fine there is nothing we can say that will make them hear the truth. We have NEVER done anything so despicable, but believe what you want.

When the change came over we were in full support of PUI/Nintendo and look how we are rewarded, not that we ever expected a reward, for that support. Except for Pokemon Rocks America we have run at least 2 events in every series of events either as the TO/PTO or staff for PES. This does not include all the league level tournaments that we have run, and the conventions. And let’s not forget writing up the guide for TMS so that all TO have could benefit from our knowledge. Not to mention a few other projects that we have been talking about starting. All we have done was offer support and help the game.

But you know what MAYBE it was our fault because WE SHOULD HAVE DID NATIONALS BY HAND, ALL 238 PLAYER IN THERE 3 SEPARATE AGE GROUPS. GRANTED WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE TILL MONNDAY SOME TIME BUT HEY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE CORRECTLY but then we would have the complaints that it took DAYS to run the event. Guess there is no winning.

Yes I am angry and by God this post shows it. And, Yes at this point I could care less about trying to be nice.
 
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THAT HAD TO BE THE ABSOLUTELY WORST CHOICE OF WORDS I'VE EVER SEEN, CONSIDERING YOU WEREN'T AT THE EVENT NOR SITTING BEHIND EACH MACHINE! So you're saying that I went into the application and did something to PURPOSELY make it dump? Anything could be farther from the truth.

Let me lay out the high points:

10 & Under:
I had just finished entering all of the players (37) taking care not to enter extra characters, etc. I clicked Finish to get to the pairings screens. I clicked New Round (as Save doesn't do anything but save your admin info for the event) - Error 9: Subcript out of range. Jimmer ended up re-entering all players from the pick list so that I could do 11-14. Round 3. All of the 2 round Bye Players have Byes in Round 3. Had to manually break all of the Bye Pairings and pair the Bye Players with each other. This raised two issues:

1 - Bye players who had to be paired manually now had 3 wins at the beginning of Round 3, which we all know is impossible. TMS seems to have a glitch that does not clear the win from the current round until after the correct match result is entered and a new round is paired.

2 - New pairings were pushed to the bottom tables.

Also noticed that there were two players that were in the wrong age group. Dropped said players.

11 - 14:
Entered 63 players into this event. Clicked Finish. Paired new round. Paired successfully. Started round. Entered results. Clicked Save. Clicked New Round. All 2 Round Bye Players were paired with each other and were not assigned Byes. Broke Pairings. Assigned Byes to all 2 Round Bye Players. Clicked Finish. Error 9: Subscript out of range. Reopened TMS. Reloaded tournament from Saved File. Paired Round 2. Undid pairings as the two players that were mistakenly enrolled in 10- were just noticed. Enrolled players in correct tournament. Assigned those two players Round 1 Byes. Saved event. Paired Round 2. All 2 Round Bye Players were paired amongst themselves again. Broke those pairings. Assigned Byes to all 2 Round Bye Players. Clicked Finish, no error. Paired Round 3. By the end of Round 3, two players had came forward to say that their points were wrong. Both players were the misenrolled players. I went back in the tournament history and checked each player. One player was missing from R1, the other was paired in Round 2. For the player that was paired in Round 2, I broke those pairings and assigned both players a Bye. I was unable to go back and reenroll the first player in R1. I tried manually editing a copy of the TRN file to give him a Bye in Round 1. When that TRN file was opened, TMS presented the following Info Box: Invalid File Format. All formatting was done in accordance with other lines in the TRN file. I asked Jimmer et al for their help in getting the score correct, nothing was offered in solution. At this point, we manually had to adjust his points on the Standings Sheet from 6 to 9 (as he had won Round 3). Margaret and I tried every round to fix this situation until the Final Standings after Swiss were posted.

15 & Over:
Round 3. All of the 2 round Bye Players have Byes in Round 3. Had to manually break all of the Bye Pairings and pair the Bye Players with each other. We're again faced with the two issues that this brings to bear. Round 5. We've had quite a few drops at this point. We're presented with the decision to pair players with with people they've played before. We select that players should NOT play against other people they've already played and confirm that desicion with the software. Pairings look OK. Round 7. Dozens of players are paired with people they've already played without being notified buy the software that this was going to occour. We delete and repair the round 3 separate times with the same result. We offer two options - either play it out or wait while we repair by hand with tiebreakers. Players elect the former.

Where in here do you see that we've purposely sabotaged this event? We did everything within our power to make this right and equitable for all players. Nobody was targeted for being, "screwed over." There was no purposeful manipulation of any components to make things blow up.

I'd like to respectfully request to the Mods and Admins that ANY posts that people are complaining about how the event was run/non-reported cheating issues/other miscellaneous complaints about Nationals be locked and those posters be referred to [email protected] unless there is something constructive to be had from said discussion. The PTO, staff, and PUI are in talks about what went wrong at Nationals and how to improve for future events. We all know that these boards are not the official conduit to lodge complaints with POP/PUI.

In fact, let me quote a phrase:
Professor Dav said:
Let me say that as long as everyone believes that this is the place to make official complaints, rather than sending those reports and complaints to us at PUI, this will in fact continue.

If you think we don't care about this stuff, you couldn't be more wrong.

However, we can't do anything about it when anonymous posts are made in a forum like this. I've been singing this same song since last summer, and it's barely made a dent in the way that people on this forum behave in regards to official action.

You want official action, email one of the official addresses. Trust me, we actually do work on this stuff.

Thanks,
Professor Dav
 
Steve and Margaret

You two shouldn't be the ones explaining and defending overhere.
You were volunteers trying to make the best of it.

Even this is not an official board, the staff members of PUI should have posted the problems you all were facing right overhere at the first signs the complaining began.
Just being open about issues going on behind the screens/computers would have giving less remarks.
 
I'm going to venture a guess here... (But I think I'm right... I HOPE I'm right).

I just read over Gym Leader Blaine's post again, and I have to say that I did not find his post malicious or accusatory at all. In fact, he sounds rather bewildered. I can see how it can be taken in a different way, but I don't think he meant any offense, and I don't think he's accusing anyone of sabotage. He really does sound puzzled at the situation.

I must add that I don't know him, and I only know of Steve and Margaret because of Nationals, so I'm not taking sides.

Although, I do agree, "sabotage on purpose" is a poor choice of words -- but I don't think it was meant in the manner it's been taken.
 
i know them, steve and margaret, and they are very nice, they would NEVER try to sabotage it...And after reading his too, all i found was that he couldn't crash it, but in the heat of the moment, having the tournament right then, anything can happen for no reason.
 
Whoa guys! I think GLB was using the word 'sabotage' in the technical sense of his test of modifying the db file, not as in 'you guys sabotaged the tourney'. GLB is a fellow TO and wouldn't call out someone in that way, on this board, even if that is what he thought. Poor choice of words, and I understand you feeling under pressure as you do, but for the moment, I recommend suspending judgment on GLB's intent.

And for all you onlookers, parties of the 2nd part (attendees & staff at Natls) and 3rd part (the rest) -- I recommend we all cool our jets on judging INTENT, especially respecting DGL/DP & PUI personnel in public on this board.

(edit: inserted italicized words above for clarity; edit 2: cleared 2 typos)
 
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Dayton_Pokémom said:
Sabotage on purpose!? That had to be the worse choice of words. You were not at the event nor were you there working the machines. I don’t care how many TEST tournaments you run you will never be able to recreate it. It must be nice to sit on that throne and pass judgment on those who were there busting their butts trying to get the software to treat the entire player base equal. OH the assumed problem of 99 player limit isn't and wasn't the issue, but why ask the people who were sitting there in front of the computer..

I think you have miss understood my posting. As the begining of it I posted"First off this post is not to argue the facts of what happen or didn’t happen at Nationals" All I was posting is what I have found or not found from running mock tournament because of Nationals. I am trying my best to better understand this program for when I have to use it. I want to find out what crashed it so I can advoid doing it. I never point a finger at anyone at Nationals saying they sabotage the system, I just stated that it was the only way I could make it crash was for me to do something with the player data. True I will never be abe to recreate the event fully or that point in time that was Nationals, but I can learn about the computer software and program of TMS that PUI gives is. I know you guys worked hard to make the tournament the best with the computer problems you guys did face.
 
DaytonGymLeader said:
THAT HAD TO BE THE ABSOLUTELY WORST CHOICE OF WORDS I'VE EVER SEEN, CONSIDERING YOU WEREN'T AT THE EVENT NOR SITTING BEHIND EACH MACHINE! So you're saying that I went into the application and did something to PURPOSELY make it dump? Anything could be farther from the truth.

Let me lay out the high points:

I am not saying that at all DGL, all I am saying that is the thing I had to do to make the system crash, I never said it happen at Naionals I was not even there, all I am saying it this is what I did while doing mock tournaments. I appriceate the high light points of the touranament you have posted. This will help me in future tournaments by learning what you guys did when you faced the problem with TMS at Nationals, so I can to handle the situation the the best way one could like you guys did. I am using what happen at Naitonals as a learning expirence, and trying to find ways to better work with the TMS software till it can fully be fixed.
 
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I am sorry if my posting of "sabotage on purpose" was felt as a bad choice of words and an attack to anyone. I didnt mean anything by it more then just pointing out that is what I had to do for me to crash TMS. I did not mean it to offend anyone by it. I will edit my original post.

Once again my apologies to anyone i offended, it was not my intention.
 
Gym Leader Blaine said:
I am sorry if my posting of "sabotage on purpose" was felt as a bad choice of words and an attack to anyone. I didnt mean anything by it more then just pointing out that is what I had to do for me to crash TMS. I did not mean it to offend anyone by it. I will edit my original post.

Once again my apologies to anyone i offended, it was not my intention.


I think the mood in here is a little volatile. People are just a little stressed, edgy, sensitive and defensive due to some other people's finger-pointing and unrelenting bashing.

Hopefully, it'll all calm down soon.
 
GLB, it's just the choice of words. After being accused of purposely and willfully screwing people over all weekend and a good portion of this week, both of us snapped. We wanted to get our side out in a controlled manner, but that's out of the bag (at least somewhat).
 
DaytonGymLeader said:
GLB, it's just the choice of words. After being accused of purposely and willfully screwing people over all weekend and a good portion of this week, both of us snapped. We wanted to get our side out in a controlled manner, but that's out of the bag (at least somewhat).

I am sorry for my choice of words DGL, please accept my apology for them. I cant imagin what a week this has been for you and your stafff. I know you did the best you could do with the software you were given. I have not had the TMS ever do to me what it did you to, the only thing that ever happen was with 1.11 when it froze up on me right be for the final standing to figure out the top players for the playoffs of the Gym Challenge I was running. Luckly it was saved and all I had to do was reboot the computer and it worked fine. This is the only problem I have ever had. Once I heard what happen to you at nationals with TMS that is when I wanted to play test it like I have been to see what problems I can find with it so it can be fixed. I found a problem because of this play testing that in a single elimiation tournament a person that gets a bye because of a odd number of players will be dropped fully from the tournament the round after they were given a bye. So there are some problems with TMS was all know that. Once again I didnt mean any harm to you are your staff for the hard work they put into Nationals.
 
I am just curious on whether anyone planned to complain to Wizards or Upper Deck about how long there tournaments took. How about Decipher? Pokemon USA wasn't the only tournament still going on at 4am on Sunday morning.

It sounds to me a few players didn't get what they hoped they would out of Nationals so they think complaining on here will get them a trip. If you didn't earn it, you don't deserve it. I mean should we give all the European players free trips to worlds because OP in those countries sucks royally? If anyone deserves free trips, it is our friends in Europe.

I don't remember ever being to any convention that starts on time. It is how things always work. Why you think Origins staff still sell event tickets even after the set time passes. I know of a few players that would have never played had everything been perfect.

Neither is Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh or Magic. If you want something perfect, go into politics LOL
 
GLB, now that everyone's had a chance to cool off and look at it, we'd like to offer our apologies as well. We can't begin to tell the massive amounts of vitriol and bile that have been offered up to us last weekend or this week. I consider the whole misunderstanding behind us if you do.
 
man as much as i would love the invite it is just not right and hey if we were all to get invites then we may have to relive the same thing at worlds oh well but if there is a decision to give invites i will take mine
 
DaytonGymLeader said:
GLB, now that everyone's had a chance to cool off and look at it, we'd like to offer our apologies as well. We can't begin to tell the massive amounts of vitriol and bile that have been offered up to us last weekend or this week. I consider the whole misunderstanding behind us if you do.

agreed it is behind us. I am sorry for the vitriol and bile you guys have gotten, I know you did the best you could whith the situation you guys had.
 
mewsmom:Jeez who cares, this is a game and
you have to do whatever it takes to be on top.
Meeting new people and making friends, having
fun, and building new decks/thinking of strategies
is what this game is all about. It's also about
having the Courage and Honor to challenge
opponents and trying to prove something to
other people and to yourself. You strengthen
your skill with every win and loss. Also you can't
just expect to be first place in every tournament.
You have to work hard, think straight, and not lose
focus. Listen I may not be the best player but
that is the basic reason why every player wants
to participate in big tournaments like this. All I
can say is that if you want to spend that much
money that your decison and your own problem.
 
Man, why do I suddenly feel like a deer in headlights with the next major event to go off!

Thank goodness there will be no byes, or other headaches to contend with...but, this is still striking some degree of fear into me.

As they say....

judge not....

and I hope that I am not hit with the same kind of rocks Steve and Margaret were hit with....

Yet we all survived.....

M45
 
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