National's Coin Manipulation Issue
- Thread starter jax54
- Start date
NoPoke
Active Member
yes
==
affirmative, all right*, amen, aye, beyond a doubt, by all means, certainly, definitely, even so, exactly, fine, gladly, good, good enough, granted, indubitably, just so, most assuredly, naturally, of course, okay*, positively, precisely, sure thing, surely, true, undoubtedly, unquestionably, very well, willingly, without fail, yea, yep anoying 17 char minimum
A quick note: We've gotten a number of requests to close this topic.
As of this moment, we're not going to.
This is an important issue to discuss in general.
What is or should be a legal flip is a very valid topic.
Also, being a National Champion makes a player something of a public figure in the Pokemon community, whether they want to be or not. While outright attacks of that individual will not be tolerated, there is a wider range of acceptable discussion regarding them than there would be for any random player.
The discussion will continue to be monitored, and it is best if the focus remains on what should be legal vs any specific match that is now history.
Carry on.
As of this moment, we're not going to.
This is an important issue to discuss in general.
What is or should be a legal flip is a very valid topic.
Also, being a National Champion makes a player something of a public figure in the Pokemon community, whether they want to be or not. While outright attacks of that individual will not be tolerated, there is a wider range of acceptable discussion regarding them than there would be for any random player.
The discussion will continue to be monitored, and it is best if the focus remains on what should be legal vs any specific match that is now history.
Carry on.
As judges do you honestly think that players doing "bad flips" with only 1 or so rotations won't be an issue at Worlds? The issue is not just weather or not its possible to manipulate a coin flip but those who attempt to do it badly. I can just here the he said/she said arguments now.
Box of Fail
New Member
Jaeger said:
It's against the rules. Obviously it's tough to prove how many times a coin rotated.
Do you propose to have a solution?
Hi Wil. Good to see you back.
However, you may as well ask Pokemon to stop printing cards with cute little animals on them.
They have designed luck into the game.
The best we can ask is that they keep the luck factor within a reasonable range.
Anyone remember the Gym series?
However, you may as well ask Pokemon to stop printing cards with cute little animals on them.
They have designed luck into the game.
The best we can ask is that they keep the luck factor within a reasonable range.
Anyone remember the Gym series?
CFOURCOLTSFAN
Active Member
Yeah, I remember Gym Series, I do remember there being a fair amount of flippy cards, off the top of my head Rocket's Secret Experitment, Misty's G-dos, Rocket's Mewtwo and I think Blaine's Charizard as well.
And Wil, it seems if next year's rotation is B/W on, which it probably will be, there does seem to be less "flippy cards" in general, and now you can at least "manipulate" them by using the Victini that lets you reflip coins for attacks.
And Wil, it seems if next year's rotation is B/W on, which it probably will be, there does seem to be less "flippy cards" in general, and now you can at least "manipulate" them by using the Victini that lets you reflip coins for attacks.
I will be at Worlds, I don't know what I will be doing (it doesn't really matter, I'm thrilled to help in any way), but if I am asked to judge any gameplay from Grinder to League, Worlds to Side Events, I will have in mind what makes a coin flip or dice roll legal.
I urge players to know the rules. Kudos to players who ask judges to disqualify older, less balanced, potentially less fair, coin randomizers; you clearly have read the rules.
Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules
17.5. Randomizers
Players are permitted to use two types of randomizers during a Pokémon TCG match: coins or dice. Players are always permitted to use their opponent’s randomizer.
17.5.1. Coins
Any coin released with any Pokémon TCG product from EX Ruby & Sapphire on should be considered fair and impartial.
Any other coin (such as local currency) brought by a player to be used as a randomizer must be approved by both players. Players should consider whether or not the coin in question is light enough to not damage or mark cards it lands on and whether or not heads or tails can be determine at a glance.
When flipped, a coin should be held at shoulder height, and must flip at least three times in the air before landing on the table.
Coins should land as flat on the table as possible. If both players cannot agree on the result of the flip, a judge may be called to determine whether the result is conclusive or if the coin must be flipped again.
Coin flips that land outside the playing area (off of the table or in another game’s playing area) are considered invalid and must be flipped again.
Once players have agreed on the result of a coin flip, it cannot be redone.
17.5.2. Dice
6-sided dice are permitted for use as randomizers, so long as each die is a cube, where each side has the same surface area.
Dice must have well-rounded corners to ensure that it rolls on the playing surface.
Dice should be of an appropriate size that the result can easily be understood by both the players and the judges. This includes size and lettering or numbering on
the die.
One side may have custom-precision etching in place of the 1 or the 6 as long as all custom dice being used by that player have the same side customized and both players approve the use of the die.
The numbers or pips on the opposite sides of the die must add up to 7 (i.e., 1 must be opposite of 6). A custom-etched side uses the number replaced when determining if the opposite sides add up to 7.
Dice used as randomizers must be transparent or translucent.
When rolling a die, the player should shake the die in an open, cupped palm so that both players can see the die bouncing around in the player’s hand. The die should then be rolled along the table in a manner that forces it to bounce several times before stopping. Alternately, the die can be flipped into the air from shoulder height, so that it spins at least three times before landing.
Dice used as randomizers must be clearly distinguishable, either in size, color, or marking, from dice being used as damage counters by either player.
I'll be looking for coins or dice to be flipped from shoulder height so that it flips/spins at least three times in the air before landing; alternately, a dice can be shaken open handed then rolled so as to bounce several (zero, one or a couple of times is not several)times before stopping.
I held players to this standard at events as small as battle roads and cities, so it is reasonable that players should be willing and able to perform these actions as described in the rules, pretty much eliminating the incidence of manipulation.
Know the rules, play by them, hold your opponent to them, call a judge if there is a problem.
Sorry this happened at an event as significant as Nationals, but if any good can come out of it, perhaps an awareness of the rules regarding randomizers before Worlds is that good.
I urge players to know the rules. Kudos to players who ask judges to disqualify older, less balanced, potentially less fair, coin randomizers; you clearly have read the rules.
Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules
17.5. Randomizers
Players are permitted to use two types of randomizers during a Pokémon TCG match: coins or dice. Players are always permitted to use their opponent’s randomizer.
17.5.1. Coins
Any coin released with any Pokémon TCG product from EX Ruby & Sapphire on should be considered fair and impartial.
Any other coin (such as local currency) brought by a player to be used as a randomizer must be approved by both players. Players should consider whether or not the coin in question is light enough to not damage or mark cards it lands on and whether or not heads or tails can be determine at a glance.
When flipped, a coin should be held at shoulder height, and must flip at least three times in the air before landing on the table.
Coins should land as flat on the table as possible. If both players cannot agree on the result of the flip, a judge may be called to determine whether the result is conclusive or if the coin must be flipped again.
Coin flips that land outside the playing area (off of the table or in another game’s playing area) are considered invalid and must be flipped again.
Once players have agreed on the result of a coin flip, it cannot be redone.
17.5.2. Dice
6-sided dice are permitted for use as randomizers, so long as each die is a cube, where each side has the same surface area.
Dice must have well-rounded corners to ensure that it rolls on the playing surface.
Dice should be of an appropriate size that the result can easily be understood by both the players and the judges. This includes size and lettering or numbering on
the die.
One side may have custom-precision etching in place of the 1 or the 6 as long as all custom dice being used by that player have the same side customized and both players approve the use of the die.
The numbers or pips on the opposite sides of the die must add up to 7 (i.e., 1 must be opposite of 6). A custom-etched side uses the number replaced when determining if the opposite sides add up to 7.
Dice used as randomizers must be transparent or translucent.
When rolling a die, the player should shake the die in an open, cupped palm so that both players can see the die bouncing around in the player’s hand. The die should then be rolled along the table in a manner that forces it to bounce several times before stopping. Alternately, the die can be flipped into the air from shoulder height, so that it spins at least three times before landing.
Dice used as randomizers must be clearly distinguishable, either in size, color, or marking, from dice being used as damage counters by either player.
I'll be looking for coins or dice to be flipped from shoulder height so that it flips/spins at least three times in the air before landing; alternately, a dice can be shaken open handed then rolled so as to bounce several (zero, one or a couple of times is not several)times before stopping.
I held players to this standard at events as small as battle roads and cities, so it is reasonable that players should be willing and able to perform these actions as described in the rules, pretty much eliminating the incidence of manipulation.
Know the rules, play by them, hold your opponent to them, call a judge if there is a problem.
Sorry this happened at an event as significant as Nationals, but if any good can come out of it, perhaps an awareness of the rules regarding randomizers before Worlds is that good.
Box of Fail
New Member
Is there some clause stating that if both players agree to the validity of a flip, it will be considered legal? If so I think this is seriously needed. With no disrespect to any judges intended, it makes no sense for a judge to be able to demand a reflip from two players who are in agreement.
There is if it doesn't follow rules.
GodBlessAmerica
New Member
I heard David Richard got a letter in the mail from P!P saying that he was banned from flipping coins at worlds and has to use dice instead
Is this true?
Is this true?
Box of Fail
New Member
I mean, if my opponent's coin is flipped slightly below shoulder height, shouldn't I be able to shoo off a judge demanding a reflip? Or is this another thing about how the right to decide belongs to the judges, not us etc etc etc?
I can understand a judge's wanting to have the final say, but idk I feel like if I'm the victim of a failure to observe the rules, I should be able to let it slide.
inb4 integrity of the game etc
GodBlessAmerica said:
I'd be skeptical. Sounds to me like baseless gossip
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Contagous Red
New Member
Manipulating coins is wrong on all aspects I completly agree with Jax statement as kids and adults are being rewarded for manipulating what should be a fair outcome!
NoPoke
Active Member
How does that post help? It fixes nothing. Offers no solution. Just pours oil on the fire
If you are going to make the accusation
then where is your proof?
Maybe it is the parent admitted cheating except that would be incorrect.
or the parent and many players believe it can be done except belief is not truth.
or theory shows except you have neglected the constraints.
or eight out of ten flips which is just awful statistics.
The thread should stay open so that readers understand the context of the issue. Stay open so that a positive outcome can be obtained. So that there might be better understanding along with some future clarification from P!P.
The thread should stay open as there is an issue with bad flips that don't meet P!Ps requirements. An issue of how to deal with those as flips are not going away anytime soon.
meganium45
Active Member
As one of the Worlds Judges, seriously, you don't think we are going to be going after this issue, seriously?
The top priority of any judge and judging staff is to make sure the event is fair for all of those involved.
We, as the Worlds judges, assure you that we will have this issue addressed, and not "over-addressed". There is a temptation from a judging staff to be reactionary to the point that we get too radical in the other direction.
We will find the balance.
After all, there are a lot more judges at Worlds, the best in the World, and a lot fewer players so we can give more individual attention to players and situations.
Vince Krekeler
Meganium45
Worlds 2011 Judge
The top priority of any judge and judging staff is to make sure the event is fair for all of those involved.
We, as the Worlds judges, assure you that we will have this issue addressed, and not "over-addressed". There is a temptation from a judging staff to be reactionary to the point that we get too radical in the other direction.
We will find the balance.
After all, there are a lot more judges at Worlds, the best in the World, and a lot fewer players so we can give more individual attention to players and situations.
Vince Krekeler
Meganium45
Worlds 2011 Judge
CFOURCOLTSFAN
Active Member
^
I don't think so, but if the guy flipping the coin has been called out on it by other players, at the same event or even other events, and the judge knew about it, i would assume the judge/TO could do something about it.
just a side note, this coin flipping thing is making me miss MD-CoL format a lot, I wouldn't say the game was on par w/ magic in terms of skill, and in general, a lack of luck based cards(I mean SSU, Machamp SF Hurricane Punch, and Fainting Spell flips were like the only luck cards used in a lot of decks), but i think it was a lot better than this format, just my two cents.
I don't think so, but if the guy flipping the coin has been called out on it by other players, at the same event or even other events, and the judge knew about it, i would assume the judge/TO could do something about it.
just a side note, this coin flipping thing is making me miss MD-CoL format a lot, I wouldn't say the game was on par w/ magic in terms of skill, and in general, a lack of luck based cards(I mean SSU, Machamp SF Hurricane Punch, and Fainting Spell flips were like the only luck cards used in a lot of decks), but i think it was a lot better than this format, just my two cents.
Qwachansey
Active Member
Chansey coins are proven to flip heads more often