Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Next rotation?

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A good move on their part would be DRX-ON for 2 reasons

1) These sets before DRX came out have already existed for 2 years now

2) By eliminating those sets, cards like Klinklang BW, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Tornadus, Sableye, Eeletrik variants will all disappear.

Therefore, the decks I could see that would be playable for the fall season are Blastiose/Keldeo, Chandleure/Rayquaza ex, Garbodor/Landorus, Virizion/Genesect, Weavile/Eggs, and Thunderus/Deoxys.

Decks that would be nerfed the most would be Big Basics and Garbodor/Landorus because they don't have Mewtwo ex and Tornadus ex. We don't need a format with all the ex Pokemon doing all the work.

WE NEED DIVERSITY

3) More stage 2 decks could come into play, assuming if the company makes the X and Y Pokemon playable for the future sets.


Hopefully, everything will all balance out one way or the other.


I like how everyone thinks a rotation will create Diversity. Each rotation everyone complains. What makes you sure everyone won't play the Deck that is winning again? As soon as one deck is heard winning, everyone will run to that deck, and the diversity will be gone. The diversity now is probably the most we will get. Few more decks will have possibilities next set, but then everyone will still run to the 'winning' deck.
 
I don't think rotation would do any good for the game at this point.

There's two ways rotating sets out has a chance of improving diversity, neither of them works at the moment:

1) Rotation can change the game right upon taking effect if it gets rid of cards that dominate other cards or even certain styles of play.

However, at the moment, all reasonably sized rotations would keep both Thundrus EX + Deoxys EX and Blastoise + Keldeo EX + BK EX in the format. Diversity would probably become worse rather than better because those two are very likely to be the strongest decks after Plasma Freeze comes out. And that is, even without a rotation. The Plasma deck might suffer from losing some Special Energies and Catcher, but that would actually be even worse for diversity: at the same time, Blastoise would benefit way more from Catcher rotation than it would suffer from the combined effect of losing its own access to Catcher and the arrival of Virizion + Genesect combined.

2) Rotation can help change the game later, as new cards are easier to design to make an impact on diversity when the card pool is smaller.

However, like said, the strongest cards or their most important support can't really be rotated out. The balance wouldn't change for the better, but the metagame would potentially shrink down to have even less variety and the gap between playable and unplayable could even get higher than ever.

A rotation alone can't save the game unless they take emergency measures and jump to XY1-on, which is impossible for various technical and economical reasons.

Therefore, the only thing that can bring more diversity to the game within a year would be to do the unthinkable and put some effort into card design and adjusting the rules:

- Aim to make at least 50% of each set playable, for starters

- Design new cards to specifically address overcentralization in the game

- Design new cards to specifically support underutilized cards and strategies

- Make pre-evolutions actually useful

- 2x weakness replaced by +X weakness

- New rules that make donking much harder

But since they went out of their way to reprint Eviolite, and from what I've heard, Mewtwo EX and Darkrai EX both getting reprints yet again in Japan, I think they simply don't want the game to change anymore. No matter what the rotation is, it will only bring change in the names of some cards, but the same straightforward styles of play will remain the only option.
 
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I'm not sure what game you guys have been playing, but I would say there's quite a bit of diversity in the decks right now. Just off the top of my head I can name Eelektrik variants, Darkrai variants, Blastoise/Keldeo, Big Basics, Garbodor/Basics. That's 5 deck groups that can win any tournament right now. On top of that there's rogue decks that are out there. I mean, I saw a Snorlax/Giratina deck top in Madison today. I'm not sure how much more diversity you want.

You can say that we need stage 2s in order to get diversity. I ask, why? Why is having stage 2s be playable such an important thing? Why can't they be support to basics? Why is having a fast basic based format such a bad thing? Are there a couple things wrong with the format? Sure. A turn 1 donk is never a fun thing to go through. But as far as I can tell there is always some sort of complaining that goes on in every format, no matter how "good" and "diverse" the card base is.
 
I'm not sure what game you guys have been playing, but I would say there's quite a bit of diversity in the decks right now. Just off the top of my head I can name Eelektrik variants, Darkrai variants, Blastoise/Keldeo, Big Basics, Garbodor/Basics. That's 5 deck groups that can win any tournament right now. On top of that there's rogue decks that are out there. I mean, I saw a Snorlax/Giratina deck top in Madison today. I'm not sure how much more diversity you want.

You can say that we need stage 2s in order to get diversity. I ask, why? Why is having stage 2s be playable such an important thing? Why can't they be support to basics? Why is having a fast basic based format such a bad thing? Are there a couple things wrong with the format? Sure. A turn 1 donk is never a fun thing to go through. But as far as I can tell there is always some sort of complaining that goes on in every format, no matter how "good" and "diverse" the card base is.

Eelektrik with Rayquaza is the only one of those decks that involves limitations that force diverse decision-making elements compared to the rest. The others are all about spam. And Snorlax/Giratina is a terrible example of diversity, it's a big basics deck with different big basics and different energy engine in it. Same with Garbodor, it's a modification to big basics rather than a strategy of its own, and the only thing it adds to decision-making in that deck is how many Trubbish you want to bench and how fast. You didn't mention Klinklang but really, other decks tech against it too easily while sticking to nothing but attacking basics, so it only relies on their luck of the draw or lack of preparation to succeed.

Basics only take one deck space each, so the same deck space limitations don't apply to every deck. That's particularly bad now since the current trainers are really strong and disruptive. This gives Stage 2 a huge disadvantage against basics, that's obvious. But to see all the dimensions of decision-making that are lost, we need to look at Stage 2 vs. Stage 2:

The game isn't as fast when it comes to damage. There are slower phases in the game, before attacking begins and also during the game.

When there's more time to prepare, depending on the type of deck you play, you are more likely to get turns where you make other kinds of decisions than ones that involve doing as much damage as possible, as fast as possible.

More sophisticated decks mean the skill factor of reading your opponent's moves and hiding your own moves becomes important and separates good players from bad players. Currently everything is so straightforward you can't do this.

Both player have less room for cards in the decks, so their resources are scarcer. Of course, your decisions about how to use them become more important and you can't just spam them.

Stage 2 involves more risks you need to control since every stage 2 or their pre-evolutions that goes down takes more cards and turns to replace. This is particularly important when you have less resources.

In general, there are more actions to do each turns when playing Stage 2 and more cards you require to do those actions. It's obvious this gives you more factors you need to control to execute a strategy.

You notice this when you get to play with Stage 2 decks against other Stage 2 decks in this format. Stage 2 against Stage 2 involves a lot more decision-making from dimensions you lose when you rely on big basics to attack: you need to put more effort into maintaining your advantage, being faster doesn't mean you won the game. The attack conditions are stricter for stage 2, just because evolving takes time. There's also the conditions of the attacks themselves, their energy costs and the nature of their support. There are more things you get to do each turn. And more things you need to keep an eye on than just how many switches or catchers your opponent has used.

Stage 2 isn't good on its own, obviously. You can make an extremely linear and straightforward deck with Garchomp. The cards just need to be better designed so that different options become viable, it's all it comes down to. You say the game is diverse enough, but have you played Stage 2 or even Stage 1 attacker decks against other a Stage 2 or Stage 1 attacker decks lately? Of course, it's possible you like this format and that the diversity between current decks is enough, but if I (most likely) couldn't convince you of what the game is lacking at the moment, maybe seeing it for yourself should make it appearent what I'm getting at.
 
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Aisor, I'll say it again, why do Stage 2s need to be prominent in a format? Having decks be mainly Stage 2s does not mean they become more sophisticated or complex. There are plenty of strategic moves that are made with basic based decks. Look at yesterday's finals in Madison. Adam's Junk Hunt choices were the deciding factor in the match. His entire strategy depended on what cards he chose with Junk Hunt.

There are choices made like this every game. Where do I put the additional damage? Do I laser now or wait a turn? Which supporter give me a better advantage now and later? Are there some games that have one player completely outspeed and catcher ko everything their opponent drops? Of course. But there are games like that in every format.

I think the problem is that the game is not the same as it's always been and people don't like change. It's obvious that Pokemon wants a fast, active game as opposed to the slow, methodical game of past formats. This is ok.
 
^ Thats not all true. You make the game seems like all decision making is a huge process. I watched a lot of games and they are pretty standard. When the game was better, no one was ever overrun unless their opponent was clearly better, manage resources better and made smart plays. No one really worred about fast decks because there were 3 or more turns of setup. The problem with a fast game is a lot of thses cards are designed to be slow or require a learning curve. The EX cards unbalance the game and thats a problem, when everything else is balance.

I do agree that stage 2 being playable does not make a game balance but basics are the only competitive cards in the game, being supported by evolved benched sitters. The game can change, but it has to change for the better. Its clear the game is only changing for money and thats it. Seems like the designers can care less about the state of the game.
 
Aisor, I'll say it again, why do Stage 2s need to be prominent in a format? Having decks be mainly Stage 2s does not mean they become more sophisticated or complex. There are plenty of strategic moves that are made with basic based decks. Look at yesterday's finals in Madison. Adam's Junk Hunt choices were the deciding factor in the match. His entire strategy depended on what cards he chose with Junk Hunt.

There are choices made like this every game. Where do I put the additional damage? Do I laser now or wait a turn? Which supporter give me a better advantage now and later? Are there some games that have one player completely outspeed and catcher ko everything their opponent drops? Of course. But there are games like that in every format.

I think the problem is that the game is not the same as it's always been and people don't like change. It's obvious that Pokemon wants a fast, active game as opposed to the slow, methodical game of past formats. This is ok.

I take it you enjoy a format filled with basic attackers that take over the format? I feel sorry for you...

Personally, I would prefer to go back to the olden days where every type of decks were dominant. As in I would to see more stage 2 and stage 1 RELIABLE attackers to balance things out, and less basic EX's attackers.

Stage 2 decks like Blastoise/Keldeo and Klinkklang/Cobalion don't really count as "Stage 2" decks because you are mainly attacking with your big EX attackers the entire time. Same thing goes for Stage 1 decks, Eelektrik and Garbodor sit there on the bench not doing anything, while the big basic EX attackers are doing all the work.
 
Aisor, I'll say it again, why do Stage 2s need to be prominent in a format? Having decks be mainly Stage 2s does not mean they become more sophisticated or complex.

I said Stage 2 for various reasons I'll explain later. Like I said, Stage 2 on its own doesn't mean anything. Blastoise is the easiest to use and most boring card in the format, yet obscenely powerful. Garchomp is boring since the Dragon Call choices are always obvious and that deck's strategies don't branch based on what you play against. With the cards we currently have, of course the current meta is the best, it uses the cards to their full potential which is what it is supposed to do.
We just need way more cards of different kids that are useful. And some of those cards need to be Stage 2.

The true potential of Stage 2 or even Stage 1 in diversifying the game is that, if they are done right, they split the game into phases: early-game, mid-game and late-game. There's no late-game anymore, barely even mid-game, beyond preparing for N and attaching tons of energy. But in a healthy game, cards that take time to get on the field make impact proportional to the time, planning, resources and even luck they require to get into play. Getting multiple such cards would create effective synergies between them, aka late game strategies. For late-game oriented decks, mid- and early-game are preparation to get there, and the forms of decision-making would reflect that. The very nature of requiring multiple cards together to execute your game plan is more sophisticated than the current game, and only Rayeels does that with any level of depth (it's still very fast and spammy, but it involves multiple types of control and risk), and Plasma Klinklang to an extent. And since there exist multiple phases in the game, the current meta-decks would thrive, and even take games, just by early-game dominance and mid-game pressure. But they need to stop somewhere.

New decision-making elements that comes from this is, simply, buying time and preparing allocating your resources in a way that keeps them safe yet effective. But that simple concept encompasses a lot of uses for different cards and different plays. You'd have to think ahead much more than you currently have any reason to, or need to, because it will be too late to do anything 'later'.

So being Stage 2 isn't the point, it's the balance between different styles of play. The same idea can be realized in other ways. But evolved attackers are by far the most obvious and natural way for PTCG to do it.
Strong pressure early game needs to balance out later and high risk early game need to do that as well. Decks that attack hard since T1 can't be stronger all-game than decks that take considerable risks or user slower plays to get an upper hand. Rayeels is the only deck at the moment where that concept works in practice, and in Plasma KK to an extent as well. Both of those use EX attackers, so their existence itself is not the fundamental problem.

There are plenty of strategic moves that are made with basic based decks. Look at yesterday's finals in Madison. Adam's Junk Hunt choices were the deciding factor in the match. His entire strategy depended on what cards he chose with Junk Hunt.

I didn't watch that game and I won't deny the skill of the player, but Junk Hunt is an attack that allows resource use beyond the normal limits. While using Sableye gives up damaging attacks in order to reuse items, which is obviously a big deal, it's only one part of the game. If the entire decision-making aspect culminates to just reusing resources (which you are supposed to use carefully in the first place), then it's not very convincing. I admit it's a trade-off, but how is it sophisticated to just select the alternative that deals more damage/attaches more energy?

There are choices made like this every game. Where do I put the additional damage? Do I laser now or wait a turn? Which supporter give me a better advantage now and later?

Those are only problems as complex as 1+1=? In a balanced format, you make trade-offs in both your deckbuilding and in the way you play it in various situations in various match-ups. It's decision-making about which advantage you want to pursue, how and when, and which win condition you try to go for, how, and when.

The answer to all of those in this format is attach as many energy as you can, deal damage and drop the obvious trainer choices whenever needed.

I never said there's no decision making, I was talking about lost dimensions of decision-making in deckbuilding and tactical maneuvers. The choices are always obvious, it's all a matter of elementary addition of damage rather than predicting your opponent's moves. But then again, it's obviously not the fault of any player. There isn't such diversity in the card pool.

Are there some games that have one player completely outspeed and catcher ko everything their opponent drops? Of course. But there are games like that in every format.

There don't need to be such games in the every format from now on just for the sake of tradition. And in a healthy format, that would be a justified situation for a deck that is geared towards early-game dominance at the expense of being weak later.

I think the problem is that the game is not the same as it's always been and people don't like change. It's obvious that Pokemon wants a fast, active game as opposed to the slow, methodical game of past formats. This is ok.

I would be ok with a faster format if they made more cards that can match that speed and give them various support and tricks to set up in time. Most alternatives can barely enter the bench, and they are easily overpowered by something faster and more reliable than them. That's just bad design and neglect of diversity, and if it's a choice, it's a bad one.

EDIT: I think the best way to put it is that many EX cards reach the level of power that should be associated with late-game in two turns, and with lucky draws, possibly on the very first turn. On top of that, considering how EX are actually stronger than others even if they reach the late-game phase, there isn't any competition. Also, if the game is all about lategame-oriented plays, it's no wonder the gameplay is so stale.
 
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Aisor, I'll say it again, why do Stage 2s need to be prominent in a format?

Not sure if you are misunderstanding a major point, or if I am merely nitpicking your speech.

When Stage 2 Pokémon were the dominant force of a format, I was annoyed because it meant most fully Evolved Basic or Stage 1 Pokémon were automatically not going to cut it. At the time it was because in an attempt to "balance" the Stages, besides it being Evolutions that had support Basic Pokémon couldn't access, as well as simply following certain design rules so that Basic Pokémon were intentionally inferior to Evolutions in key areas (usually HP). So even if in the video games, two Pokémon had identical stats other than one being a Basic and the other a Stage 2, in the TCG the Basic would be less capable and have much poorer stats.

If "prominent" includes having all fully Evolved Pokémon equally useful in the format, then there is a simple, excellent reason for doing so: profit. I've explained it before, and I don't want your eyes to glaze over if I repeat myself, so ask if you want more details. In short; people who don't care will not stop buying the game if we balance out the various aspects of the game. People who do care will complain, buy less, or flat out quit if Pokémon doesn't give them a game they can enjoy.

Having decks be mainly Stage 2s does not mean they become more sophisticated or complex.

Correct. Irrelevant, but correct. Creating a format where most of the card pool is not worth using in competitive play does reduce complexity, especially when Evolution has been such a key mechanic in Pokémon in all its iterations. It does get glossed over in several posts, but overall it seems many of us on this thread have made it clear the status of Stage 2 Pokémon/the Evolution mechanic in the last few formats is a symptom of the game losing specific areas of complexity.

There are choices made like this every game. Where do I put the additional damage? Do I laser now or wait a turn? Which supporter give me a better advantage now and later?

These choices are not inherent to Basic Pokémon being dominant, ergo citing them does not prove that the game retains its former complexity due to Basic Pokémon being the driving force of the format, or more importantly does not prove that so many cards being rendered filler due to questionable design decisions has not cost us some of the game's former diversity and strategies.

Are there some games that have one player completely outspeed and catcher ko everything their opponent drops? Of course. But there are games like that in every format.

Yes... but there is a difference between being the exception and being the rule. I encounter this a lot when debating headier matters, like governance, religion, and politics. Every government will have those that abuse their power, but that doesn't mean every form of government or every administration is equal; how much they resist this problem helps define their quality.

A benevolent tyrant can easily be a superior ruler to a leader elected by the people in a government built around following carefully reasoned laws based on principles inherent to the very justification for government in the first place. The difference is that the tyrant is only going to be "good" if s/he chooses to be (and has the capacity to rule well), while the elected leader has to actually ignore the laws and people that put him in power to rule poorly... and/or be incompetent.

A format structured and card pool designed so that you cannot easily win by simply attacking and with no other strategy being equally viable, but instead allowing a player to choose whether they want an aggressive deck, a slower deck, or something in between is less likely than a format that is all about hitting hard and hitting fast suffering from the above mentioned problem.

I think the problem is that the game is not the same as it's always been and people don't like change. It's obvious that Pokemon wants a fast, active game as opposed to the slow, methodical game of past formats. This is ok.

Actually, the big complaint is that the game has returned to its earliest roots, save for a few modern mechanics. We haven't reverted to having "just Trainers", but the game plays very similar to how it did in its earliest days. My big complaint is the lack of constructive change; problems that have plagued the game since its earliest days remain or have become exacerbated... and all of this in a manner to alienate some customers instead of appealing to as many players as possible.

I like fast decks. I like slow decks. I like decks that are various shades in between. This game can accommodate both, and even has in the past.
 
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