Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Next set - Dark Explorers

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't see how it's silly. The only hard part is getting a heads from twist mountain; zorua already has ascension and dark patch will be run in high numbers.

Or have you never played copycat decks before?

If EX pokemon is going to be the play for future metas, you can bet that zoroark will make a comeback. Its dark rush counterpart is already a highly viable card, teching in a foul play version isn't too radical.

First I freely confess I am using "Theorymon". I have not been able to test either the original version of this particular deck, nor a version using the as-yet-unreleased Darkness-Type support.

On the other hand I have been with the game, while not continuously, since the first Base Set Starter deck. I've used Pokemon with a similar strategy before.

jjkkl had a point: in a deck that is geared toward optimal :dark: Pokemon usage, Aerodactyl will be an oddball. Many of the new, groovy :dark: effects won't do it any good. It is a mixed blessing that it is Pokemon Catcher bait: it may help that you're dividing attention between your attacker and it.

The Zoroark from Black & White (and reprinted in BW: Next Destinies) is still a 100 HP Stage 1. Ascension on the new Zorua will help, but instead of suffering through one turn of Zorua being vulnerable on the Bench, waiting to Evolve, you end up with a Zoroark active that couldn't attack. It is nice to save a search card (or know you won't have to wait to draw into it), but for a copycat, the big deal is actually outpacing your opponent. That's what made Clefable from Jungle, granddaddy of this style of deck, so effective: one Energy allowed it to use the opponent's biggest attacks.

I won't bore you by posting the six or seven paragraphs (small paragraphs, though) of "Theorymon" I was about to post. First, I suggest that your combo is complex enough it is essentially half a deck. Sure the other half is open to other combos, but it is so significant it is only fair to look at how it fairs against popular beatsticks backed by their own decks. In fact, like Zoroark it isn't even a "full deck" that matters, but the main combo. Reshiram, Zekrom, and Mewtwo EX don't like Zoroark with your set-up, and that is commendable.

The problem is most other big, basic beatsticks will require two shots because their own attacks aren't hitting hard enough to push into the OHKO range, especially when factoring in Eviolite. This gives the opponent time to set-up something that will OHKO Zoroark, and if the phenomena repeats (the next Zoroark needs another two turns to take down the powered-up Pokemon) your opponent pulls ahead. Pokemon EX will usually not engage until they are guaranteed their first Prize, so if you don't OHKO them, they actually pull ahead.

There is also the simple fact that it might be more effective to just use PlusPower/Darkness Energy for the small boost. If you were counting on a Bench full of Aerodactyl (assuming it stacks), that's still a significant set-up, on par with a Bench full of Stage 1 Pokemon, plus your opponent will likely be able to overwhelm you by constantly OHKOing them and ignoring the retaliatory OHKOs from Zoroark. If it was just a single Aerodactyl, then with its expected lifespan again, PlusPower or Special Energy Darkness Energy seems better to me.

All this before considering the new Zoroark. If you fill your Bench with :dark: Pokemon, it does an easy 120 points of damage, and with few exceptions that's a better deal than the old Zoroark would get. If your opponent doesn't OHKO it, they have to gently hit it the first attack or risk the second hitting even harder: six damage counters on Zoroark and it also can hit for 120 points of damage. That's before Darkness Claw, by the way.

I see the two working together, but as you can see by the above, I don't see it becoming the new BDIF, and if I've missed even something minor (past instances are usually the appropriate deck or play-style tweak) it may fall completely flat. So I remain cautiously optimistic.

Hmm... and re-reading your quote, it may be you simply don't see why counting on a Revived Pokemon and Pokemon Tool is so risky this format. Even if Gothitelle folds as so many expect, Vileplume decks will still ruin your day.
 
* Raikou EX - $70 price tag as Mewtwo EX? Yeah sadly and it will be much harder to pull as well.

Even if we have a similar pull rate (which might change), Raikou will not be a $70 card. It is not Mewtwo EX. Mewtwo EX can be played in any deck. Raikou EX needs the deck made to support it (similarly to Zekrom EX.)
 
I expect that Dark Explorers will have the same horrible pull ratio as Next Destinies with the EX's, as for the cards mentioned:

* Raikou EX - $70 price tag as Mewtwo EX? Yeah sadly and it will be much harder to pull as well.
* Heatmor - Why do we need this guy again? Oh to beat Durant right? What's wrong with attrition?
* Empoleon - Depending on ZekEel/MagEel's popularity it will be a dead card unless paired with Terrakion or Donphan.
* Darkrai EX - Great Ability but bad attack IMO.
* Ultra Ball - Something to replace Communication.
* Zoroark - Seems good I guess.
* Darkness Claw - Solid.
* Dark Patch - Stupid good with Junk Arm.
* Random Receiver - Pokegear 3.0 reprint anyone?

Can someone explain to me why TPCi keeps cutting good cards out of each set like they did in Next Destinies?

Where did you get this list from, I looked on Bulbapedia and found a lisiting but not with Ultra Ball and Random Receiver...

Thanks
 
Still do not understand why everyone is wetting themselves with glee over Heatmor. Durant players expect to a lose a Durant every turn. Heatmor does nothing extra except take up precious deck space. If his attack put Durant in the Lost Zone or killed multiple Durants at a time he would be worth the the hype. Right now all he does is kill one at a time the same as countless other cards.
 
Where did you get this list from, I looked on Bulbapedia and found a lisiting but not with Ultra Ball and Random Receiver...

Thanks

Ultra Ball and Random Reciever were in the Reshiram/Zekrom decks in Japan, but weren't in ND, so it's highly likely we'll be seeing them next set.

Still do not understand why everyone is wetting themselves with glee over Heatmor. Durant players expect to a lose a Durant every turn. Heatmor does nothing extra except take up precious deck space. If his attack put Durant in the Lost Zone or killed multiple Durants at a time he would be worth the the hype. Right now all he does is kill one at a time the same as countless other cards.

While true, most cards can't OHKO Durants first or second turn, much less at the cost of only one energy. Heatmor is easy to get out, set-up, and can start killing T1, which can wreck a Durant deck.
 
To be honest, I don't see why everyone is so excited about Zoroark in this set.
I mean he's OK, but I see him as just another Cinccino. Fragile but hits decently heavy for a DCE.
And I dunno how you'll get damage counters on him to use Dark Rush because he'll get OHKOed all the time =/
 
I will at least allow the possibility of Defender helping it, or perhaps it will be the kind of deck that runs heavy disruption so that it is hard to get a good shot in on it. Dubious, I realize, but I dislike flatly ruling these things out this early.
 
To be honest, I don't see why everyone is so excited about Zoroark in this set.
I mean he's OK, but I see him as just another Cinccino. Fragile but hits decently heavy for a DCE.
And I dunno how you'll get damage counters on him to use Dark Rush because he'll get OHKOed all the time =/
You don't focus on Dark Rush, you focus on his other attack. For simply a DCE, he does 120 with a field of darkness pokemon. That's not that hard, with the proper engine and enough darkness pokemon in the deck. Then factor in the fact that, with the new Zorua with ascension, you are basically guaranteed a T2 Zoroark. Now add Special Dark. Now add Darkness Claw. Potential T2 140? 150? Yes please.

That won't always happen, of course, the but the chances aren't that poor. With a good, consistent list, the T2 120 should happen almost every game. You can also tech in the foul play Zoroark, adding amazing utility to the deck, like copying Raikou EXs snipe, copying Zekrom EX, Mewtwo EX, regular Zekrom, etc.

Imagine a list sort of like this:

4x Zorua (w/ Ascension)
3x Zoroark (Dark Explorers)
1x Zoroark (BW)
4x Sneasel (UD, for free retreat)
3x Weavile (UD, for Power, just so we have more Darkness pokemon. You could run 1 of the new Weavile too that does 90 for 1 on pokemon with tools, if you wanted)
1 Darkrai EX(why not?)

3x Collector
4x Professor Juniper
4x Professor Oak
2x N
4x Catcher
3x Darkness Claw
2x Super Rod
4x Junk Arm
3x Dual Ball
1x PokeGear
2x Ultra Ball

4x DCE
4x Special Dark
4x Darkness Energy

That's a really, REALLY rough list, but it gets the idea across. Zoroark is, of course, VERY fragile so 2 Super Rod is necessary. Think of it like the Jumpluff of old; it gets KOd every turn, but it KOs back every turn, too.

I don't know about you guys, but this seems REALLY good.
 
Raen: Like I said he has potential. I'll also point out that you're responding to a response... I think you missed the part where Zoroark was being hyped in a deck build around non-Darkness-Type Pokemon, ergo my focus on his non-Darkness-Type-Pokemon dependent attack.

I agree fully that this Zoroark will likely be much, much better in a mono-Darkness-Type deck, focusing on the Swarm and then spaming Zoroark with the first attack and with a Darkness Claw attached. Still, Darkness Claw is mostly going to cancel out the protection of Eviolite, so you'll need to hit 150 damage to OHKO Reshiram or Zekrom. With only four Special Darkness Energy in a deck, that means you'd better make room for PlusPower.

Lesser big Basic Pokemon fall with out any extra push, which is still good. Since they can't use Eviolite, only the biggest currently legal Evolutions are going to fall outside the range of a Darkness Claw enhanced Zoroark. Then again such cards don't see as much play or do have the 150+ HP scores needed to survive. If you can force up a Vileplume or are facing down a Gothitelle, it should do wonders.

Ascension should really only matter for your first Zoroark assuming you open with Zorua. Me, I'd try to open with Absol Prime. He isn't bad even as simply a back-up attacker. Might be an oddball Mew Prime set-up. That's one heck of a way to counter Mewtwo EX.

"Remember that Darkrai EX I removed for Absol Prime's Vicious Claw? Guess it make sense now!"

...

Okay so now the wheels in my head are turning. A clutch Mew Prime/Shaymin combo could do some amazing things, and instead of See Off, Vicious Claw can attack (now possibly first turn) while setting up for Mew Prime.

Still, my original point remains: it is too early to tell; remain cautiously optimistic. ;)
 
King Piplup: you left out "Is Zoroark a Pokemon EX? No."

The card investment concerns me, but if the format is nothing but Pokemon EX, I'd really expect an Inferno Fandango or Afterburner deck featuring Rayquaza & Deoxys LEGEND to dominate. I mean if it literally is almost nothing but Pokemon EX attacking, it is okay to trade two Prizes for three, even if the LEGEND is more challenging to set-up.

Plus if you could make Black Belt work in a deck, the Foul Play Zoroark enhanced by Darkness Claw could OHKO many Pokemon EX. For the sake of argument, it seems fair to assume Darkness Claw will be canceling out Eviolite most of the time. Shaymin EX has such a low HP score that it should rarely be doing anything but a "winning attack" KO, but if it does either Zoroark is likely to OHKO it. A Foul Play emulated Revenge Blast just needs three Prizes to have been taken, and the new Zoroark just needs a full Bench.

Since Zoroark is likely going to be OHKOed anyway, the self-damage the Foul Play version risks from copying Brave Fire is bad, but most of the time won't matter... so yeah a Black Belt. Down goes Reshiram EX. Energy discards are unimportant for similar reasons, so Zekrom EX is also vulnerable to this. Of the Unova Dragons, Kyurem EX is the problem one, since it just doesn't hit as hard with its big attack and can discard Energy with its smaller attack.

Regigigas EX is a problem as well, since its big attack only becomes potent when the Pokemon using it is damaged, and it is well outside the range of the new Zoroark's first attack. Mewtwo EX honestly doesn't hit that hard: its so powerful because it is so flexible, and can be dropped and advanced against something that has already attacked. X-Ball isn't likely to be worth duplicating with Foul Play, and even with a full Bench you need almost all the extras to OHKO it.

All this before considering that the Zoroark deck probably also already runs a Pokemon EX for just this reason.
 
Last edited:
King Piplup: you left out "Is Zoroark a Pokemon EX? No."

The card investment concerns me, but if the format is nothing but Pokemon EX, I'd really expect an Inferno Fandango or Afterburner deck featuring Rayquaza & Deoxys LEGEND to dominate. I mean if it literally is almost nothing but Pokemon EX attacking, it is okay to trade two Prizes for three, even if the LEGEND is more challenging to set-up.

Fair enough. But is chaining Zoroark's really going to work do well?


Posted with Mobile style...
 
I expanded upon my original post... sorry I was hoping I could edit faster. The short answer is: I don't know. ;)

The slightly longer is: I don't know, but why am I just chaining Zoroark? It will be whole deck versus whole deck, and we must remember that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top