Opponent attaching/retreating rules

[Scorpidad]

I will say that that is an interesting concept and reasoning from the Head Judge.
I would have asked him, "So, basically, you have just told me that I should not ever announce any of my actions or moves because it will only hurt me. Keeping quiet and possibly confusing our opponents, but allowing myself to retake actions is the way you want everyone to play?"
His response to that would be interesting.

This is the closest I have ever seen 'Pop Judge a Judge :smile:

I am teaching my daughter the same lesson. I can only go by what the judges tell me to do, and if one tells me one thing (keep hands/fingers on cards), and another tells me something completely different (must announce move), then I will use both to my advantage.

Please, do not instruct your daughter to be quiet!

calling a judge for not putting 20 dmg on Bronzong G instead of just reminding them.

All that this will accomplish is the judge saying "OK, put 20 damage on it, have a nice game." And of course, if this is a common occurence will also lead to an annoyed judge.

Don't advise your daughter to keep quiet. When the gamestate does become confused, silence during her play leaves her at the mercy of what the judge thinks is a resonable interpretation of her actions.

Because of all this, I try and get players to speak their actions, at all times. As 'Pop said, being mute will only hurt at some events.

-----

One final note...If you ever get table judged by the same judge, ask if the same rule applies. If it does, then most of the "speak your action" advise could be thrown out the window.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

______ About the Judge:

This is one of those things that you just eat.

The Head Judge gets to make that call.
IF that's how it actually went down (and I've NEVER heard ANY judge ever use that rationale), then it was his call to do so.

If the Head Judge's rulings are a consistently problematic or controversial (or inconsistent), then you seek a new head judge.

The judge should be there to promote enjoyment of the event and keep situational fires from occuring. If they do occur, they are put out in a simplistic manner (if possible).


___________ About Rules:

You have to understand something. You don't want to make TOO MANY rules for this game. You have to keep the game simple and allow judges to provide clarity to grey areas. Otherwise, the atmosphere is SO intense and dogmatic that the game ceases to be fun.

________ MY ruling:

I make it clear that once your hand is off, it's YOUR OPPONENT'S call whether or not to take that move back. Spoken or not spoken, you've made that move once your hand is off. So, if the opponent says "you played it down." then, you need to continue your turn with that energy played down

Nevertheless, the HJ gets to make that call.

 

[pokemaster1970]

"________ MY ruling:
I make it clear that once your hand is off, it's YOUR OPPONENT'S call whether or not to take that move back. Spoken or not spoken, you've made that move once your hand is off. So, if the opponent says "you played it down." then, you need to continue your turn with that energy played down "

That's exactly what I was told at other tounaments as well, and exactly my arguement at this Top Cut, which is why I am so miffed as to why there are different judges with different interpretations of rules or "guidelines".

The game of Chess has been brought up a few times on this thread, and the rule there is simple: Once your fingers come off the piece that is moved, your turn is over. It should be the same way here. If someone wants to attach an energy, or retreat a Pokemon and look at the board without taking their hands off the cards in question, then they have the right to change their minds.

I only question what I've been told in the past, and then it comes back to be the exact opposite of what I've been told.

 

[rokman]

Well, I was there and heard both sides of the story, as well as the judges (after the fact, not during the match). The player retreated a pokemon, without saying anything, and lifted his hand off of the new active pokemon, but not the benched one. This is why the player and the judge felt he could take back that action.

If I was the head judge, I would have told the player that made the retreating action to clearly announce his moves from now on and since nothing was announced, I would have said he can alter the move since he did not entirely take his hands off the pokemon cards.

According to your story about the energy attachment, if the player didn't announce anything and DID remove his hand entirely from the cards, I would have ruled it a finished action. Then if he wanted to change his mind, it should be up to the opposing player.

But I wasn't the head judge, so it doesn't matter.

Lastly, the tournament wasn't even for premier rating points and it was a fun tournament set up for practice for States. There shouldn't be this much stress over it, dude. If this ever happens at a premier rated event, then you can complain and argue your heart out. But to Pokemon, not the pokegym.

 

[pokemaster1970]

The purpose of this thread is so it DOESN'T happen at a premiere event. This is why I bring this up now a week before states, "dude". If so many judge have so many interpretations of how actions should take place, don't you think the players should know BEFORE a premiere event? Or is it only info for your homeboys in that judges local league that need know how the will judges will call a tournament.
All judges need to be on the same page, especially at premiere events.

The retreating action came after he took his hand off the energy, then decided to take it back and do something else. That move allowed him to take three extrea actions during his turn, whereas if he simply attached the energy and retreated, his turn would have been pretty much done. You were only playing in the tourny, and weren't even watching the Top Cut matches, so of course you're going to chime in since it was your buddies from your league judging this event.

And even if it wasn't a premiere event, it was a Sanctioned event, was it not? Pokemon prizes were handed out, along with copies of the new B/W DSI game, correct? So you think P!P wants their sanctioned events to be judged randomly like a free-for-all? I certainly hope not, "dude".

 

[NoPoke]

Sounds to me like the judge used let go = played as more than guidance but as a rule. Retreating a pokemon involves moving lots of cards so at what point is the let go condition met? Making let go = played a rule means that you also have held = hand and touching=takeback as rules. Your scenario is an example where elevating let go = played to a game rule can end up with a "takeback" that wasn't there. An example as to just why let go = played is not a rule, but "merely" very good guidance.

I ruled against my own son in a final on a retreat action. I didn't care that he still had a finger on the energy for the retreat cost. Everything about the actions he performed indicated that he was retreating. It cost him the match which he would have won but for that error. I knew he had the match won, he knew he had the match won, but in the heat of the moment he messed up the play he had been setting up for the past few turns.

 

[rokman]

The retreating action came after he took his hand off the energy, then decided to take it back and do something else. That move allowed him to take three extrea actions during his turn, whereas if he simply attached the energy and retreated, his turn would have been pretty much done. You were only playing in the tourny, and weren't even watching the Top Cut matches, so of course you're going to chime in since it was your buddies from your league judging this event.

This doesn't even match your original story...

He attached the energy and retreated in one single action during a turn? Why were you claiming it was two separate events every time you were complaining at the event and in your original post? That's how he got "extrea" actions? What?

And finally we have come to the real reason you are even complaining in the first place, surprising that it hasn't come up yet with Fish. A friend of the opposing player was judging and you felt you were cheated because the judge ruled with his friend? Sounds about right.

Also, the prizes were purchased out of the goodness of the heart of the Tournament Organizer. Not Pokemon. So, the fact those prizes were involved doesn't change the importance of the event.

Lastly, I am going to chime in and I'll be sure to in the future where you decide to complain. This is a public forum. You didn't say anything to NoPoke or Pokepop about "chiming in" did you?



Something I heard at the Judging* Seminar, when a player is changing their story up and/or has a past history, it's apparent something isn't right.......

 

[PokePop]

Wait... There's a Retreat involved in this too?

You know, if you don't give the whole story, you can throw out every thing that was said.

I'm done with this topic because you're not only telling your own side of a story, you're telling it incompletely and with major details missing.

So I'm done.

 

[ShadowCard]

And even if it wasn't a premiere event, it was a Sanctioned event, was it not? Pokemon prizes were handed out, along with copies of the new B/W DSI game, correct?

The prizes involved do not determine its status as sanctioned or not. Sanctioned means it was submitted and approved by P!P and the players get 1 credit in their Player Rewards. Nothing more. It is possible to have an unsanctioned event offer more prizes than a sanctioned one.

 

[xcfrisco]

I always allow take backs unless that game state was changed, as in, the player was made privy to information that he was not aware of before. Changes in the game state=seeing your deck, drawing cards, taking a prize, being made aware of a ruling on a poke-body/poke-power, etc.

Most commonly, I'll allow take backs on energy or retreating as long the player did not take another action afterwards. I'll even allow supporter take backs if at the last second homeboy realized he wanted to play palmer's and not bebe's search, but still hasn't searched his deck.

I guess this could be lent to some abuse by people attempting to gauge my reactions from certain moves (pretty hard imo cause I have a pretty solid poker face) or by stallers.

9 times out of 10 though, it was just an honest mistake and the match resumes.




Hope you guys get to play me in a match and not all these rulesharks

 

[Aron Figaro]

Pokepop - there was a retreat in it from post #1. >_>

The problem here is that there _is no_ official rules document that covers these (and many other) things. We have unofficial support, an introductory booklet, some outdated errata, and the tournament rules. This is TPCi's problem - and it's something they really need to start addressing.

 

[rokman]

Pokepop - there was a retreat in it from post #1. >_>

Clearly that post did not say they were a part of the same action, like Pokemaster1970 is saying now...... Not to mention, he started that sentence with, "so, if a player is retreating" that means he was using it as a hypothetical!

Because if it was clear, I highly doubt Pokepop would have missed it! :thumb:

 

[Biggie]

Pokepop - there was a retreat in it from post #1. >_>

Only theoretically. There is a difference. :smile:

The problem here is that there _is no_ official rules document that covers these (and many other) things. We have unofficial support, an introductory booklet, some outdated errata, and the tournament rules. This is TPCi's problem - and it's something they really need to start addressing.

First off you started this conversation on the OP forum which was the right idea.

Secondly, I would appreciate you not making light of the efforts of Team Compendium. They have worked closely with us in order to get clarifications from Japan and frankly they do a pretty amazing job. It's also worth noting that the compendium is in fact official.

If you have suggestions and feedback that you feel would benefit the program I'm sure everyone will be open to hearing you out, but blowing their work off as just some unofficial support is probably not the best way to start.

 

[ShadowCard]

Sanctioned means it was submitted and approved by P!P...."

And thank you for reiterating my point.

I was not reiterating your point. I was correcting your misunderstanding of the term.

I notice the opposing ponts of veiw don't really give any insight as to what the process should be. All I want to know is what the rules/guidelines are for a situation like this?
...
All I want is some consistency to what is legal or not.

Did you really come in here and expect overwhelming consensus on whether or not the HJ was correct without some discussion?
It is your description that is inconsistent. You expect people to give you a consistent answer when you cannot give them a consistent story? :nonono:

 

[Scubadude]

I always allow take backs unless that game state was changed, as in, the player was made privy to information that he was not aware of before. Changes in the game state=seeing your deck, drawing cards, taking a prize, being made aware of a ruling on a poke-body/poke-power, etc.

Most commonly, I'll allow take backs on energy or retreating as long the player did not take another action afterwards. I'll even allow supporter take backs if at the last second homeboy realized he wanted to play palmer's and not bebe's search, but still hasn't searched his deck.

I guess this could be lent to some abuse by people attempting to gauge my reactions from certain moves (pretty hard imo cause I have a pretty solid poker face) or by stallers.

9 times out of 10 though, it was just an honest mistake and the match resumes.




Hope you guys get to play me in a match and not all these rulesharks

This guy knows whats up!

 

[xcfrisco]

I should also clarify that if I'm playing SP I never allow take backs on poke-powers due to potential baiting for power spray.

If neither player is playing SP though, I don't see that harm (remember nothing was done immediately after)

I love it when players get me on my Uxie drops where I don't immediately say Set-up and other coming into play powers like Crobat G. You guys are my fav :thumb: (I have gotten better at preventing people from rulesharking wins out of me though)

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

Stuff like this will be interesting to see how it translates to the online TCG. If I electronically attach an energy and decide it wasnt to the right Pokemon can I take it back online or will the computer program read that I already attached?

 

[pokemon54]

My friends and I see it as checkers. Take your hand off then you did the move, but if you keep your hand on it then do what you want with taking back retreating, attaching energy, or playing a supporter trainer, or stadium.