Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Petition to have more than 1 Vendor at Nationals

Jeez, why do I sense one soon to be ex-mod?

EP - Moderators are supposed to be ABOVE the fray, able to discuss and participate without going overboard.

I find it really odd this is the line you drew in the sand, and the issue and response that got under your skin.

Benefit of the doubt...maybe you're having a bad day.

Vince
 
I just went through every post, and I have to say this has turned into a great discussion!

@Psychup2034 I see where you're coming from, and I support your ideas. All of your points are valid, but part of me feels like a lot of your ideas aren't likely to happen..

Not everyone does, or will do the right thing like..

In good faith, I'm going to make these analogies a little more clear for you:

* Just as Pokemon is not responsible for anything lost or stolen at a tournament, you're not responsible for holding the door open for the person behind you. That means you shouldn't do it, right?
* Just as Pokemon is not responsible for anything lost or stolen at a tournament, you're not responsible for helping someone at a Pokemon tournament pick up a coin that he/she dropped on the floor. That means you shouldn't do it, right?
* Just as Pokemon is not responsible for anything lost or stolen at a tournament, you're not responsible for helping split the tab at your friend's birthday party. That means you shouldn't do it, right?

Not everyone will hold the door open for the person behind them, not everyone will bend over to get something you dropped, and sadly, some people just won't cover for the birthday boy/girl.

It really depends on how people are, and sadly, not many people will do any of these things..
 
Jeez, why do I sense one soon to be ex-mod?

Personally, I don't find anything wrong with the language in evil psyduck's posts directed at me. I definitely do not think that the language he used warrants a demotion of any sort. If anything, I was more bothered by the fact that he gave a 1-line deflection instead of responding to the points, and I'm appreciative that he later took the time to clarify his position.


I just went through every post, and I have to say this has turned into a great discussion!

@Psychup2034 I see where you're coming from, and I support your ideas. All of your points are valid, but part of me feels like a lot of your ideas aren't likely to happen..

While I don't see it happening this year (as we're already so close to Nationals), I hope that by bringing up the idea of security cameras, there will be some discussion within TPCi about making a one-time $2,000 investment and get some for future years. Besides, cameras are reusable for multiple events.

I also don't think that TPCi must invest in higher levels of security. Nonetheless, it would be a nice gesture to players, conveying the message that TPCi is invested in protecting not only event participants, but their property as well.

The bottom line is this: I'm not sure people who work for Pokemon are aware how easy and cheap it is to get some security cameras for their franchise's largest event of the year (by attendance).
 
I just went through every post, and I have to say this has turned into a great discussion!

@Psychup2034 I see where you're coming from, and I support your ideas. All of your points are valid, but part of me feels like a lot of your ideas aren't likely to happen..

Not everyone does, or will do the right thing like..



Not everyone will hold the door open for the person behind them, not everyone will bend over to get something you dropped, and sadly, some people just won't cover for the birthday boy/girl.

It really depends on how people are, and sadly, not many people will do any of these things..

Did You get a chance to go through my post?:lol: But I bet by your signature your a Goalie so not much will get by you.
 
when my school installed security cameras they even got a tax deduction. it would hardly cost Pokemon anything to install these cameras and there is no reason why they shouldnt
 
it would hardly cost Pokemon anything to install these cameras

Keep in mind that you would need ~all~ of a) the cost to purchase them and their server-side operation equipment (this being the only one time cost on this list), b) the cost to install them, c) the cost to run them, d) the cost to pull them down, e) the cost to transport them, f) the cost to store them, and g) the permission of the venue to g1) install them, g2) wire them, and g3) power them.

Care to guess which budget this would come out of? I can assure you it wouldn't be marketing's.
 
Keep in mind that you would need ~all~ of a) the cost to purchase them and their server-side operation equipment (this being the only one time cost on this list), b) the cost to install them, c) the cost to run them, d) the cost to pull them down, e) the cost to transport them, f) the cost to store them, and g) the permission of the venue to g1) install them, g2) wire them, and g3) power them.

Care to guess which budget this would come out of? I can assure you it wouldn't be marketing's.

Keep in mind that TPCi finds a way to a) purchase, b) install, d) pull down, e) transport, f) store, and g) get permission from the venue to hang those expensive banners from the rafters/walls. Maybe put up one less poster of the musketeer trio and add in a couple cameras? That's not too much to ask, is it?

Most of the things you describe are next to costless, considering how many people volunteer their time. So let me break down the prices for you:

a) $4,000 (conservative estimate, $2,000 for cameras, $1,000 for mounts, and an extra $1,000 to be conservative)
b) $0 (assuming TPCi brings along one tech-savvy employee)
c) $0-$500 ($0 if a volunteer runs them, $500 if you hire someone for the weekend)
d) $0
e) $100 (conservative guess; whatever the cost of transporting one of those cool-looking, but unnecessary banners that they have every year is, take that number and divide by 2)
f) $0 (assuming that TPCi has some type of storage room in their office building in Bellevue)
g1) $0-$400 (depending on whether a permit is required)
g2) $0
g3) $0

At the expensive/conservative end, this costs $5,000 to do, assuming someone at TPCi is tech-savvy enough and willing to do this. $5,000 for the second most lucrative video game franchise ever is like pocket change. I don't think it's a matter of whether TPCi can do it. (They can if they really wanted to.) Rather, it's a matter of logistics.

We're not asking for anything fancy, just some basic security would be much appreciated.
 
Keep in mind that TPCi finds a way to a) purchase, b) install, d) pull down, e) transport, f) store, and g) get permission from the venue to hang those expensive banners from the rafters/walls. Maybe put up one less poster of the musketeer trio and add in a couple cameras? That's not too much to ask, is it?

Most of the things you describe are next to costless, considering how many people volunteer their time. So let me break down the prices for you:

a) $4,000 (conservative estimate, $2,000 for cameras, $1,000 for mounts, and an extra $1,000 to be conservative)
b) $0 (assuming TPCi brings along one tech-savvy employee)
c) $0-$500 ($0 if a volunteer runs them, $500 if you hire someone for the weekend)
d) $0
e) $100 (conservative guess; whatever the cost of transporting one of those cool-looking, but unnecessary banners that they have every year is, take that number and divide by 2)
f) $0 (assuming that TPCi has some type of storage room in their office building in Bellevue)
g1) $0-$400 (depending on whether a permit is required)
g2) $0
g3) $0

At the expensive/conservative end, this costs $5,000 to do, assuming someone at TPCi is tech-savvy enough and willing to do this. $5,000 for the second most lucrative video game franchise ever is like pocket change. I don't think it's a matter of whether TPCi can do it. (They can if they really wanted to.) Rather, it's a matter of logistics.

We're not asking for anything fancy, just some basic security would be much appreciated.

a) Not sure where you plan on getting a sever capable of running 32 cameras simultaneously with the HD space required to save the video for all of those cameras for 72 hours for $1000. And you forgot the HUGE amount of cabling required for it. Even if they were cameras that ran on CAT5, that would still be an enormous amount of cable required.

b) Nobody from TPCI would be allowed to do anything involved with the setup. There's the joys of convention center staff unions - I've been explicitly forbidden from moving one extra table from one end of the room to the other before because the union could file a complain and would be pretty much ensured a victory in the complaint. Hanging banners from a cable is one thing, but once you're adding in somebody with the electrical know-how, that would add another huge cost.

c) They would never have a volunteer do it, they would have to either hire a security guard or bring in another paid staff for it, depending on what the convention center union rules were. Either way, it's going to cost them a lot more than $500. Plus the cost of somebody that knows all of the ins and outs of the entire system and is going to be on standby the entire time to fix things if something goes wrong. (And if this is the same person running the system, good luck getting them at overtime rates (woo weekend work) for $25/hr.)

d) See b.

e) That you think they can move the banners from Seattle (or wherever their storage facility is) to Indianapolis and back for $100 is laughable enough to throw your entire post out the window, but lets go with it anyway. Which do you think is easier to pack and transport: a bunch of banners that, while likely heavier than the cameras, can be crammed together, bumped around, and quite frankly mishandled and be none the worse for wear; or a bunch of sensitive electronic equipment that would need to be packed in foam padded, reinforced, locking cases which need to be handed as fragile?

f) Knowing the amount of equipment, banners/props, etc that Nationals requires, I highly doubt it's all stored in their offices. It's likely stuck in a warehouse somewhere, which even if we assume is one they own, that's still taking up space that could be used for product or stuff that would make them money. So even if the book cost is zero, there is still a practical cost to it.

g) Even if we assume there is no permits required and thus no costs outside of the manpower (which may or may not be accurate), getting the permission of the convention center to do all of this would likely be more difficult than you think. At the bare minimum, they'd likely have to get their lawyers involved in drawing up a contract for the entire thing, which (like f) may have no real book cost, but that's still something extra they are having to do, so there is still a practical cost to it.


To be blunt, that you think this entire process could be completed for $5000 is comedic. They could probably spend $5000 on the server alone.
 
To be blunt, that you think this entire process could be completed for $5000 is comedic. They could probably spend $5000 on the server alone.

First of all, the servers would cost about $2,000. I've found even cheaper here ($706 x2). Players aren't looking for state of the art technology. We want something adequate. Also, wireless cameras would require almost no cables, except those cables required to connect to the router, etc.

Additionally, some of your other comments are pretty questionable as well. People who have experience with moving companies would know that the cost of transporting an extra item is marginal. It may cost a $1,000 flat fee to rent the truck and driver, but the cost of each additional item/box on that truck is like $30-$50. $100 is super conservative, although I was providing some wiggle room in case the banners were considered "oversize" and they each required a larger fee. My point is this: if they're renting a truck to move stuff anyway, putting another couple boxes on the truck is relatively inexpensive.

Nonetheless, I do have to concede the point about labor unions and how logistically, it would be a nightmare dealing with them. Perhaps allowing more thieves to get away with their crimes is worth not having to deal with the union, (and I mean that sincerely).

I think a good analogy is this. A middle-of-the-line laptop computer costs about $800-$1,200 to purchase from the store. However, someone who knows how to build a computer could achieve the same functional quality for around $400-$500. The only difference would be that the frame doesn't look as good. Similarly, It may seem like the cost of installing cameras is exorbitant, but if someone took the time to figure out the cheapest way to do it, I think it can be done for about $5,000. Moreover, the cost of the cameras/servers are amortized over many years of using the cameras.

Even if this whole thing cost $10,000, it's still pocket change for Nintendo (video game) and to a smaller extent, TPCi (trading card game). Keep in mind that the entire franchise has a revenue of an estimated $24 billion (as of EOY 2009). Let's assume conservatively that they had a revenue of $1 billion this year. Spending 1/100,000th of that money on security at the franchise's largest event of the year is extremely marginal.

Think of it this way. You made $1,000,000 last year (pretax). You're hosting a party at the club to celebrate some event, and you're not willing to spend even $10 on security for your guests. That's kinda what it feels like for the players.

I do agree, however, that the main constraint to this happening is the legal and logistical hokum pertaining to the convention center and associated union(s).

Even if we don't have a set-up of 32 cameras, even 4 or 8 would act as a deterrent for potential thieves.
 
First of all, the servers would cost about $2,000. I've found even cheaper here ($706 x2). Players aren't looking for state of the art technology. We want something adequate. Also, wireless cameras would require almost no cables, except those cables required to connect to the router, etc.

You forgot to add any hard drives. Also keep in mind that you would need extremely high quality video which does not carry small file sizes; we'll touch on this again in a moment.

Additionally, some of your other comments are pretty questionable as well. People who have experience with moving companies would know that the cost of transporting an extra item is marginal. It may cost a $1,000 flat fee to rent the truck and driver, but the cost of each additional item/box on that truck is like $30-$50. $100 is super conservative, although I was providing some wiggle room in case the banners were considered "oversize" and they each required a larger fee. My point is this: if they're renting a truck to move stuff anyway, putting another couple boxes on the truck is relatively inexpensive.

Show me a moving company that will charge you $1000 to move the amount of stuff that Nats has by land from Indy to Seattle, and I'll show you a moving company that's not in business for very long.

Even if this whole thing cost $10,000, it's still pocket change for Nintendo (video game) and to a smaller extent, TPCi (trading card game). Keep in mind that the entire franchise has a revenue of an estimated $24 billion (as of EOY 2009). Let's assume conservatively that they had a revenue of $1 billion this year. Spending 1/100,000th of that money on security at the franchise's largest event of the year is extremely marginal.

Which budget do you think Nationals comes out of? It's sure as heck not Nintendo's. Just as with the whole prizes cut uproar a while ago, I think people vastly overestimate what OP's budget is. TPCi could decide to nix the entire OP program, and they would still make a ton of money selling shiny paper to kids and their parents. It's probably a little more on their radar now that the video game is actively involved in events, but in the grand scheme of things, OP is probably still an afterthought for the bean counters.

Even if we don't have a set-up of 32 cameras, even 4 or 8 would act as a deterrent for potential thieves.

If I were a thief, no it wouldn't. 8 cameras could never have a coverage map wide enough in a hall that size, with the detail required to identify a single person out of 1600, to stop me stealing something. Unless one has clearly identifying hair (or some other blatantly obvious feature), all it would take is a ball cap to foil it - take what you want, walk out, go change clothes.


This entire thing would be a moot point if people would just take some responsibility and watch their stuff.
 
You forgot to add any hard drives. Also keep in mind that you would need extremely high quality video which does not carry small file sizes; we'll touch on this again in a moment.

A 10 terabyte hard drive only costs like $1,000...

Show me a moving company that will charge you $1000 to move the amount of stuff that Nats has by land from Indy to Seattle, and I'll show you a moving company that's not in business for very long.

You've once again completely missed the point. The point was that the marginal cost of moving an additional box back to wherever it's stored is close to nothing.

It doesn't matter whether you assume the base cost of the truck/driver is $1,000, $5,000, or $10,000. The fact is, the marginal cost of an extra box is going to be like $50. If you're already going to hire a truck (the fixed cost is sunk), then the cost of putting an extra box of equipment in there is relatively costless.

Which budget do you think Nationals comes out of? It's sure as heck not Nintendo's.

My whole point is that Nintendo should care more about security at their second most profitable franchise's annual flagship event.

I'm already resigned to the fact that this isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'm just trying to point out that what is being done is not necessarily what should be done.

Everyone feels differently about what amount of security is necessary. Some people alarm their house, some people do not. Some people pay more for police surveillance of their neighborhood, and some people do not. What amount of security is "necessary" is obviously subjective, but to me (and many other players), the security of players should be enough of a priority for TPCi such that this is brought up before Nintendo.

Of course, it'll only take one major event (kidnapping, etc.) for Nintendo to instantly drop $50,000 to buy state of the art equipment for surveillance. As always, it's easier to justify the cost post facto.

If I were a thief, no it wouldn't. 8 cameras could never have a coverage map wide enough in a hall that size, with the detail required to identify a single person out of 1600, to stop me stealing something.

Then you'd either be a really cunning thief or a really dumb thief.

Read what I've posted before. I just want coverage for the league area and waiting areas. Even if we could just get 8 cameras for the league area, it'd be better than what we currently have, which is absolutely nothing. Something beats absolutely nothing.

Unless one has clearly identifying hair (or some other blatantly obvious feature), all it would take is a ball cap to foil it - take what you want, walk out, go change clothes.

This logic is very flawed. Just because some people can still get away with their crimes when cameras are installed, it doesn't mean that all people will. By a continuation of your logic, your local supermarket/department store/shopping mall shouldn't install security cameras because unless a criminal has a defining feature, they can just take what they want, walk out, and go change clothes. I hope you see the problem with the logic here.

This entire thing would be a moot point if people would just take some responsibility and watch their stuff.

No-one would get mugged if everyone stayed home. No home invasions would happen if everyone installed metal gates on their windows and doors. There's another problem with the logic of your statement. The "if people would just..." argument falls flat on its face, as TPCi also makes no effort to inform people to take more care of their belongings. (There was not a single sign at Nationals last year asking people to be more vigilant. There was only a sign stating that TPCi doesn't take responsibility for lost/stolen items.)

Sometimes despite the vigilance of a person guarding their stuff, a thief will be more cunning than the victim and still find a way to steal from their target. Installing security cameras acts as a deterrent.

In the 1980s, fake security cameras each with an NYPD sticker were installed in a dangerous New York City street. They cameras weren't actually recording anything, but because potential criminals thought they were being watched, the crime rate on that block dropped down to only 2 reported incidents in the next year. One was a domestic abuse incident which the camera would not have prevented. The second was a mugging. Nonetheless, the fact that about 20 (I forgot the original number, as it wasn't a very memorable number) crimes turned into 2 crimes just because there was a fake camera shows that cameras do have the effect of deterrence. (The caveat here is that because there were only cameras for that one street, potential criminals may have moved to other streets where there weren't cameras.)
 
About the quality... We've certainly seen criminals convicted on video quality far less than HD at 60FPS. Think more along the lines of sub-standard-def at 30 FPS. The thing here is not that the cameras actually CATCH anybody. It's that they DETER people from doing bad stuff.

I do agree with psychup about the area. You don't really need to do anything in the tourney areas, both in the TCG and in VGC. There's easy enough ways to figure out what happened there. People move through tournament areas in predictable manners, and they generally get out quickly or the staff toss them out. If something goes missing, you can easily narrow down the potential culprits. I would like to see the cameras in the secondary League area outside of the center hall.

Deterrence is just as powerful as actually catching the guys. If you make a good enough show of it, you'll stop most of the bad stuff from happening.
 
This is an interesting topic, so I curiously went into the convention centers rental area to get some info. To get a real idea of the cost associated with some type of camera service to deter theft that would be the place to start.

A cursory glance over the cost of any type of audio visual equipment and its installation was eye opening according to the convention center docs. This is not something you just bring in and install yourself, that is not allowed by the convention center. The information is on their website if you would like to get it.

chuzzoe
 
According to the website, there are 3 "exclusive contract" security companies. And none of them list cameras on their list of features.

According to the Facility Guide, there are only 2 mentions of "camera", and neither has a mention of "security" around it. All of the mentions of Security are essentially the same as the ones on the rest of the website.

On a cursory glance (very, very cursory) I don't see anything there that precludes TPCi bringing in their own camera system or mock camera system to at least attempt some preventive care on US Nationals...
 
All these discussions about cost are so naive, it is ridiculous. There is an implicit assumption that people's time is worth nothing or next to nothing. Not everyone that works a convention is a volunteer.

The best idea I've heard so far is to take IDs of everyone that sells cards. Theft and resale is based on a presumption of anonymity. Take that away and the theft goes way down. These are not professional thieves we're talking about here, these are opportunistic kids. Raise the risk and most of them will find something better to do with their spare time.
 
I like T&T don't me wrong, I like dumping all my rotated commons on them for an extra buck. Their prices stay decently fair for the demand too. But yes having more than 1 vendor may be good, the line in St Louis was horrid. But atleast to room was a good size.

As per theft I personally never had anything stolen.
I had someone take my car keys once as a joke - but that was it. (That's not even a joke in my book but I forgave them anyway)
Saying that Kids stealing and saying "they don't know better" sometimes this comment gets under my skin.
Even Adults steal too - some unscrupulous people will do anything for fast money.
 
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More than likely, both vendors will offer either the same or similar prices for bulk items. T&T always offers the same price for all of its in-person purchases (check their website for the exact amount). Their singles prices might vary, but their bulk prices never do.
 
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