Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Playing Games Best of 3

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Yugioh Games rarely last the 45 minutes though where many pokemon games can go to time. it's not moot at all. If we did play 2/3 there would be more of an issue of time and stalling amoung the pokemon crowd.

I remember in the Bag Competition at worlds this guy stalled me. With 2 SP radar and suffling bith times really slowy then premier ball and bebe search and took forever shuffling. Knowing quite well he had 2 sp radars and premier ball in his hand.
>.> thank god i still beat that staller.
 
The ID was only an issue during the last round of swiss and even then many long time players thought nothing of it as IDs are a part of many card games. If IDs had to be removed then it was only during the last round of swiss that they *had* to go. By removing draws for every game we have to live with the unforeseen consequence of long venue over-runs and players spending the majority of the time at the venue hanging around waiting rather than playing.

The behaviour that some were so upset about hasn't gone away with the removal of the ID. I still see players on table 1 decide the match without playing. There is no collusion in this. The X-0 player is in the cut regardless and often concedes to the friend they are playing in the last round. This is impossible to prevent.

Pehaps, but at least it confines it to the first table. With intentional draws, it is possible for most or all of the playoff field to be determined this way, thereby increasing the randomness of the tournament by negating the statistical importance of the final round. Also, a concession actually hurts the player's rating, though the situation is likely different in the UK where tripless ratings invites are (unfortunately) less likely to end up being used. Additionally, despite being generally accepted in other games, to many people the intentional draw process appears improper.
 
Yugioh Games rarely last the 45 minutes though where many pokemon games can go to time. it's not moot at all. If we did play 2/3 there would be more of an issue of time and stalling amoung the pokemon crowd.

I remember in the Bag Competition at worlds this guy stalled me. With 2 SP radar and suffling bith times really slowy then premier ball and bebe search and took forever shuffling. Knowing quite well he had 2 sp radars and premier ball in his hand.
>.> thank god i still beat that staller.
Yes it is moot, because it doesn't matter if some Yu-Gi-Oh game doesn't go as long in a match, it matters that at least one set of players goes to time, which I bet they do most of the time in Yu-Gi-Oh. I know there would be an issue of time, that's what we were discussing, it was resolved that a long time extension was not the answer. Don't just reply to my reply from before, keep up in the subject, that issue's already been discussed. Also stalling wouldn't become more of a problem, stalling already is a problem, and you should've called a judge over on that person for stalling instead of just letting it happen.
 
it was a competition for a bag, it wasn't worth calling over a judge.
I don't know if YuGiOh even has a time limit, but most ever yugioh game I watch only lasts like 5 turns. Therefore they can do a 2/3 without getting overly tired..
 
it was a competition for a bag, it wasn't worth calling over a judge. I don't know if YuGiOh even has a time limit, but most ever yugioh game I watch only lasts like 5 turns. Therefore they can do a 2/3 without getting overly tired..
Tired? They're in a tournament, they know theyre going to be playing in a lot me games. Stamina is not am issue here. Also if you didnt call a judge over than thats your fault, not the tournament prize's fault.
 
I think I can make my point with regards to the comparisons made above with a very simple set of statements.

Pokemon is not Magic.

Pokemon is not Yu-Gi-Oh.

The company, both PCI and TPC, has spent a LOT of time, money, and effort to ensure that we are NOT that type of game.

Pokemon has spent the last five years reinventing the franchise as one for all ages, all ability levels, and all levels of competitiveness.

Also, for the most part, the TOs and PTOs are volunteers. They (we) do not work directly for PCI. They (we) are not full time employees of PCI. They (we) do this because we love the game, we love making the game work, and we love seeing people walk away from our events happy.

Stop trying to compare us to MTG and YGO. We are not them, and we never will be.
 
how about "stop dismissing game sytems that don't have a problem with round overruns and venue time scheduling"? The comparison with Magic is not to make Pokemon more like magic but rather to observe if they have the same problem with players spending 40+ minutes waiting for the next round to start because of one game that is locked in a lengthy sudden death. Does magic have that problem? Does Pokemon?

Does magic have similar problems with best of three? Is a valid comparison to make. If the answer is No then a good question to ask is "why not?"

TOs should always be trying to look for ways of cutting down the in between rounds time. Always be looking to the causes of a long period between the round ending and the next round starting. So perhaps rather than use it as a justification for the status quo that alledged 40+minutes delay should be confirmed if it is cited as the reason behind a given arguement against change. Do players wait 40+ minutes for the next round to start? That 40+ is not my figure.
 
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Try running 1200+ people without massive between rounds delays. 1 hour rounds was the norm this year, but there were a couple of rounds that went longer for whatever reason (player observation, I wasn't on staff this year).
 
I think you miss my point.

If a 1200 player tournament using 40 minute single game swiss still managed to keep to 60 minutes between rounds then fear of overrunning matches is misplaced and in particular should not be used to dismiss match play during the swiss.

This is my point: If an alternative game system also has 1200+ player tournaments and manages a quicker round turnaround then that system is worthy of examination for what it can tell us. Especially so if that system uses a round structure (b-of-3) that it is alledged would cripple Pokemon. To be fair to the other systems the 1200+ should really just be masters attendance as the USA 1200+ figure was for the three tournaments in parallel. Four if you count the flights, which would actually make the fair comparison between 400 player tournaments.

I know of at least one PTO that makes reducing round turnaround times a goal for Pokemon tournaments. Every TO needs to be aware of the venue time WALL even those of us whose atendance is such that the wall is comfortably distant.
 
And to advance NoPoke's point - it's not as if in M:TG, a 1200 player tournament is rare - all of their top tier tournaments have more people than that.

I'm sorry but how can you argue with a game already making it work? :confused:
 
And to advance NoPoke's point - it's not as if in M:TG, a 1200 player tournament is rare - all of their top tier tournaments have more people than that.

I'm sorry but how can you argue with a game already making it work? :confused:

Simple, Pokemon and Magic aren't the same game.
 
I think I can make my point with regards to the comparisons made above with a very simple set of statements.

Pokemon is not Magic.

Pokemon is not Yu-Gi-Oh.

The company, both PCI and TPC, has spent a LOT of time, money, and effort to ensure that we are NOT that type of game.

Pokemon has spent the last five years reinventing the franchise as one for all ages, all ability levels, and all levels of competitiveness.

Also, for the most part, the TOs and PTOs are volunteers. They (we) do not work directly for PCI. They (we) are not full time employees of PCI. They (we) do this because we love the game, we love making the game work, and we love seeing people walk away from our events happy.

Stop trying to compare us to MTG and YGO. We are not them, and we never will be.
I've been waiting for someone to bring up this point. Obviously Pokemon is not Magic, however, Pokemon is a card game, as is Magic. They both have a wide fan base, they both have large tournaments. It's true there are some things lost in translation between the two, however comparing the two are one of the best examples that can be given in this situation.

It even is, in fact, a card game based off of Magic. Don't believe me? 60 card deck. 4 card limit. 7 card hand. Dropping an energy card a turn. These ALL came from Magic. If you play Magic or Pokemon, when learning the other game you will immediately notice the similarities.

What am I supposed to compare Pokemon too? A hypothetical situation of Pokemon where my ideas were put into place? You know I can't do that, so the next best thing is the father system, which is Magic, and is still around today, and thriving just as much.
 
I'm sorry guys, but NoPoke was making the analogy with M:TG for one reason - they run tournaments with a lot more people than the Pokemon ones, but can play best of 3.

It should be really obvious that this is proof-of-concept. Arguing that M:TG isn't Pokemon completely misses the point. Why would you not take a good idea from another game to improve Pokemon? :confused:
 
How long do Magic rounds take? How do their tiebreaker scenarios break down? How many of their games will go to time in any given tournament? How much extra time does their tiebreaker system add to the tournament?

All of these are questions that have to be answered. I'm pretty certain that I know the answer to some of them just off the top of my head.

Magic does allow Draws, which is something that I believe should NOT be incorporated into Pokemon at any level. They are bad for both competitive AND casual players alike. They're bad for competitive players because they allow players to directly manipulate the top cut with absolutely no drawback to the player. Currently, that can happen at only one table (the top table in each age group). If you allow Draws, you also allow for tables all the way down the line to manipulate the top cut. Not only that, but you'll get stalling and speeding issues far beyond what we've seen thus far. If players know that they can play for a tie, and they know that they're in a losing position, it becomes MUCH easier for them to slow play and still maintain points at pretty much any time during a match. They're bad for casual players, because they want to play the game as much as possible. Allowing draws means that you're allowing games to go incomplete, which is unsatisfying for the casual player.

Pokemon does not allow ties, this is something that we've agreed is a good thing much earlier in this thread. This year, we also introduced a tiebreaker system in BO3 scenarios that ensures that a second, meaningful game counts while also virtually ensuring longer round times. I like the BO3 tiebreakers, as they allow for up to three long, intense, meaningful games in an amount of time that it would normally take to play 2 games. Don't believe me? Game 1 lasts 40 minutes, a nice, long, involved game where there's back-and-forth and goes down to the last prize. Game 2 lasts 20 minutes, ending with the losing player taking his 4th prize as time expires. Then, you have a one prize sudden death game, which can last anywhere from 30 seconds to ten minutes (I've seen these before). It's a FAR more satisfying conclusion than having one player win game 1 and then slowplay game 2 for the win.

Now, if you agree with me that draws are not good for this game, and if you agree with me that the new tiebreaker scenario IS good for this game, then you've painted yourself into something of a corner when proposing BO3 Swiss rounds. Even if you reduce the round time to 45 minutes, it's all too common to get into the Sudden Death tiebreaker after game 2, which will last probably around 10 minutes, not to mention the standard turnaround time for getting into the next round or a game 2 tie that needs to be broken. By going to 45 minute BO3, you've essentially added 15-20 minutes PER ROUND onto the tournament time, making each round last 1:15-1:20. Now, for most Masters, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many Seniors wouldn't mind either. But the Juniors are the ones that I'm concerned about here. in general, their attention span is far less than the Seniors or Masters, and they wouldn't hold up over a long day. Also, most events (in my experience and IMO) are understaffed, even as the events get larger and more intense. So, you're essentially putting more strain on an already strained volunteer staff that's already working upwards of 18 hours in a day (and longer with BO3 Swiss) to implement a system designed to benefit the players that PCI does not market its game towards. PCI has always marketed its game towards the Juniors and, to a lesser extent, the Seniors. The Masters are included mostly to keep the Jrs and Srs happy that they can keep playing after they age up, as well as to give the JR/Sr parents a chance to bond with their kids.

As far as the comparisons between Pokemon and other TCGs, including MTG, there are always going to be obvious similarities between any TCG and MTG. WOTC pretty much perfected the TCG and CCG over a decade ago. At the very least, they popularized it with MTG. The reason that many games take ideas from MTG is because that game works, plain and simple. You can find elements of MTG in every single TCG that's been made since 1995, even if only in broad strokes. Pokemon is closer than most, but it's still distinct enough and has its own unique concepts (evolution, unshared resources, modular deck typing).

Everything that I've said above is strictly IMO.
 
How long do Magic rounds take? How do their tiebreaker scenarios break down? How many of their games will go to time in any given tournament? How much extra time does their tiebreaker system add to the tournament?

All of these are questions that have to be answered. I'm pretty certain that I know the answer to some of them just off the top of my head.

Magic does allow Draws, which is something that I believe should NOT be incorporated into Pokemon at any level. They are bad for both competitive AND casual players alike. They're bad for competitive players because they allow players to directly manipulate the top cut with absolutely no drawback to the player. Currently, that can happen at only one table (the top table in each age group). If you allow Draws, you also allow for tables all the way down the line to manipulate the top cut. Not only that, but you'll get stalling and speeding issues far beyond what we've seen thus far. If players know that they can play for a tie, and they know that they're in a losing position, it becomes MUCH easier for them to slow play and still maintain points at pretty much any time during a match. They're bad for casual players, because they want to play the game as much as possible. Allowing draws means that you're allowing games to go incomplete, which is unsatisfying for the casual player.

Pokemon does not allow ties, this is something that we've agreed is a good thing much earlier in this thread. This year, we also introduced a tiebreaker system in BO3 scenarios that ensures that a second, meaningful game counts while also virtually ensuring longer round times. I like the BO3 tiebreakers, as they allow for up to three long, intense, meaningful games in an amount of time that it would normally take to play 2 games. Don't believe me? Game 1 lasts 40 minutes, a nice, long, involved game where there's back-and-forth and goes down to the last prize. Game 2 lasts 20 minutes, ending with the losing player taking his 4th prize as time expires. Then, you have a one prize sudden death game, which can last anywhere from 30 seconds to ten minutes (I've seen these before). It's a FAR more satisfying conclusion than having one player win game 1 and then slowplay game 2 for the win.

Now, if you agree with me that draws are not good for this game, and if you agree with me that the new tiebreaker scenario IS good for this game, then you've painted yourself into something of a corner when proposing BO3 Swiss rounds. Even if you reduce the round time to 45 minutes, it's all too common to get into the Sudden Death tiebreaker after game 2, which will last probably around 10 minutes, not to mention the standard turnaround time for getting into the next round or a game 2 tie that needs to be broken. By going to 45 minute BO3, you've essentially added 15-20 minutes PER ROUND onto the tournament time, making each round last 1:15-1:20. Now, for most Masters, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many Seniors wouldn't mind either. But the Juniors are the ones that I'm concerned about here. in general, their attention span is far less than the Seniors or Masters, and they wouldn't hold up over a long day. Also, most events (in my experience and IMO) are understaffed, even as the events get larger and more intense. So, you're essentially putting more strain on an already strained volunteer staff that's already working upwards of 18 hours in a day (and longer with BO3 Swiss) to implement a system designed to benefit the players that PCI does not market its game towards. PCI has always marketed its game towards the Juniors and, to a lesser extent, the Seniors. The Masters are included mostly to keep the Jrs and Srs happy that they can keep playing after they age up, as well as to give the JR/Sr parents a chance to bond with their kids.

As far as the comparisons between Pokemon and other TCGs, including MTG, there are always going to be obvious similarities between any TCG and MTG. WOTC pretty much perfected the TCG and CCG over a decade ago. At the very least, they popularized it with MTG. The reason that many games take ideas from MTG is because that game works, plain and simple. You can find elements of MTG in every single TCG that's been made since 1995, even if only in broad strokes. Pokemon is closer than most, but it's still distinct enough and has its own unique concepts (evolution, unshared resources, modular deck typing).

Everything that I've said above is strictly IMO.
50min.
Once it's at time, there are 5 turns starting after the current player's turn, but not for each player. Like one player will get 3 more turns, and the other will get 2. (I hadn't thought about implicating this to Pokemon, maybe not so many turns, but the idea of it. What do you think?)
I don't know, not many but typically always someone.
I don't know, I'm out of element to that question.

Agreed ties wouldn't be allowed, it's the same as asking your opponent to concede. This doesn't allow for more opportunities to stall, it only increases the incentive, which could easily be combated with stricter restrictions. If someone is going to intentionally stall, it should be considered cheating, and they should get a game loss. If casual players want to play more games, how would this not be in their interest? They're literally playing more games.

We did not agree, or at least I don't. I think ties could easily be implemented into Pokemon, if the concern is that people will make agreed ties. Also, couldn't you apply that tiebreaker system to a smaller round of B03? Also, stating that 45 minute rounds would add too much strain on the staff and players is avoiding the fact that they're already playing 45 minute rounds in Europe, and are still doing them, so something about that is working. Also I've already made the point that you could easily exclude Juinors, and if necessary Seniors, from playing B03.

None of the points you made proves that Pokemon is too different than Magic to compare Pokemon with. You admitted that there are similarities, and that Pokemon is even closer than most, making it one of the most comparable card games to Magic.
 
.... Draws.....

They are bad for both competitive AND casual players alike. They're bad for competitive players because they allow players to directly manipulate the top cut with absolutely no drawback to the player....

That is just plain wrong.

If IDs are a bad thing in the last round of swiss (and that is not a universally held belief) The just have no draws in the last round of the swiss. Simple

A more complex solution is to alter the final round pairing so that at least one player at the top tables needs to win.

It is possible to have draws without lots or even any IDs at the top tables. Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

=========

The strongest arguement for the reintroduction of draws is not because they work well with best of three but because of the positive benefit that their reintroduction would have on venue overruns.

Removing draws may have fixed one problem but it threw a great big unforseen spanner in the event schedule for the bigger events.

Removing draws for every round was the simplest solution to the (perceived) problem of IDs in the last round of swiss but it sure came with a bucket load of venue time issues. The cure of removing draws for every round is worse that the ID disease it solved.
 
I understand bullados' argument about ties. Many games try to resolve ties by having a sudden death extension. There is a very strong preference for these games to end with a victor. If you examine Pokemon, you'll see the same preference.

It doesn't matter if the players like IDs. If the designers and organizers feel they're undesireable, that's all that matters. The same goes for ties.
 
You can stop ID's in the same way that you would stop people from convincing another player to give up. It's simple to stop ID's and still have draws be allowed, at least it's easy as stopping one person from trying to talk their opponent into conceding. If you find out that they were intentionally trying to draw DQ them, that should be considered cheating.
 
You can stop ID's in the same way that you would stop people from convincing another player to give up. It's simple to stop ID's and still have draws be allowed, at least it's easy as stopping one person from trying to talk their opponent into conceding. If you find out that they were intentionally trying to draw DQ them, that should be considered cheating.
IDs might not be the only problem with ties here.

Ties are okay, if they are uncommon and last resort. If ties become common-place in 45-minute best-of-3 matches, then they fail, even though they might solve the problem of extended match time.
 
IDs might not be the only problem with ties here.

Ties are okay, if they are uncommon and last resort. If ties become common-place in 45-minute best-of-3 matches, then they fail, even though they might solve the problem of extended match time.
Well then I guess we would have to ask our fellow European posters how often games go to time there. Anyone know a rough guesstimate?
 
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