Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Pre-XVII Werewolf Metagame Analysis

ProHawk said:
If we continue to talk about how Diaz was "saved" due to vet reverence, we also need to discuss how PMysterious was saved due to the exact opposite, new player pity.
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Yep. That was dealt with as well. although not in as much depth. The guiding force in dealing with a player is their current play. Not how much play they have or haven't had. Not how well or not well they have played in the past.

How people's ideas are treated and the ramifications for their play should not differ depending on quantity of past experience or quality of past skill.

@Pikamaster:

I get your point about creative roles. However...before we can talk about creative roles it is absolutely essential to talk about balance. The gym's meta is different from MS et al, and it should remain that way...however in a meta where the wolves have never won regardless of how well they have played we need to consider balance before we bring in the inevitably hard to balance creativity.

Balance is more important than creativity. Creativity is something to introduce once the games are balanced. The gym has been being incredibly creative, but what it has done is made an entire fundamental faction in the game effectively unwinnable.

@Cardz:
Thank you for weighing in. I still consider the voguer broken :p

I do think that one-off roles could assist as could marking roles, however it would need to be clear that they would be very weak night time...and effectively return VT for RR.
 
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PMysterious said:
I would love to Co-Mod a game that you would Mod. However, I don't have much modding experience. Also, I have plans to mod one myself sometime. :thumb:

However, problem is I don't really feel like doing it until Werewolf 20+. So, don't expect that anytime soon.
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Eh, like I'll any more modding experience :D

Yeah, I won't be doing it any time soon either. First I've got to actually get an idea into my brain, then I've got to get a program that can help me with the percent and fraction factor.


I probably wouldn't exactly be pleased to get a vanilla role, but I'd live with it. The night is only half of the game, anyway. The fun part is talking in the day.
But I believe that you can have a balanced game without vanilla roles. Especially if we decide to bring in the room mechanic that AT did in his last game, then we could have all sorts of roles that are based on the rooms, allowing for a lot more creativity.
 
I'm a little late to this thread, and haven't had a chance to go through everything yet, I just wanted to thank you for going through the effort of gather all this information from past games and bringing up the topic in the first place.
 
Would it be possible to allow the werewolf the ability to frame innocent townie? ie: "innocent" carrying a weapon that was used to kill during the night or that weapon was found next to them; person's clothes/face/hands was covered with blood. If you think that ability is too powerful, you can put a limit on number of times it can be used in one game.
If werewolfs are evil, allow them the ability to be very insidious.
 
dave628 said:
Would it be possible to allow the werewolf the ability to frame innocent townie? ie: "innocent" carrying a weapon that was used to kill during the night or that weapon was found next to them; person's clothes/face/hands was covered with blood. If you think that ability is too powerful, you can put a limit on number of times it can be used in one game.
If werewolfs are evil, allow them the ability to be very insidious.
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I've seen a variation of this role on another site, it's typically not very impacting at all, as the town typically comes to the conclusion that the GM wouldn't give away someone on the scumteam that easily.

Power-level wise, I personally don't consider it much more powerful than Politician Salmon's role in Pokemon Wars. If a GM wants to use it, I don't have any problem with that.
 
Pikamaster said:
---------- Post added 07/26/2012 at 07:00 PM ----------

[/COLOR]I can double post! xD

Another thing is this. Pokegym has its own meta, its own style, its own games. People play here because its Pokegym's style. If we change too much so it's like MafiaScum, EpicMafia, or one of those sites, why won't people just go there to play? While Pokegym's meta should change, not everything should change. Otherwise it loses its originality.
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Agreed. We are not trying to turn the Gym's meta into Mafiascum. While they do have good ideas (and have run thousands of games and know balance a bit better than we do) our intent is not to turn the Gym meta into a "mini-MS." That would be pointless because everyone here can already go over there to play.

The Gym's meta does need to change. But it doesn't need to become MS. That is not our goal. Our goal is twofold (mostly). Break bad habits and balance the game. We have recommendations for how this should happen, but those are our goals.

One of my favorite things about the Gym is the players who play, as well as the involvement with the community and the meta we have developed. I love having Mr. X flavor in games, and I love the mods we have and their creativity.

That being said, there are issues that need to be dealt with. Namely some of the playing trends (vet reverence/reliance on mod/role/etc) and the balance issues.
 
I have only played 3 games of WW ever. 1 on the gym and 2 short ones on 6P. As you can see I am definitely new to this game but I think a way to make this game a little more balance if not more advantageous for the wolves, is to not allow name/role claiming. I do not know if that has been done before but it seems that as soon as someone claims a name the pressure goes onto the next person and so on and so forth until someone cant name claim or role claim. Once the whole town has claimed it makes it very hard for wolves to hide. Wolves can lie about who they are, but everyone knows it is tough to maintain a lie through a whole game of WW.

I also think more vanilla roles on both sides could make the game much more skill based instead of relying on roles to get all the information you need.

These are just the first things that pop to my head. I am sure there is a reason for name claiming to be allowed that I have not realized yet, and I could see why people would not want to play a game with a bunch of vanilla's. Just my 2 cents.
 
desufnoc said:
I have only played 3 games of WW ever. 1 on the gym and 2 short ones on 6P. As you can see I am definitely new to this game but I think a way to make this game a little more balance if not more advantageous for the wolves, is to not allow name/role claiming. I do not know if that has been done before but it seems that as soon as someone claims a name the pressure goes onto the next person and so on and so forth until someone cant name claim or role claim. Once the whole town has claimed it makes it very hard for wolves to hide. Wolves can lie about who they are, but everyone knows it is tough to maintain a lie through a whole game of WW.

I also think more vanilla roles on both sides could make the game much more skill based instead of relying on roles to get all the information you need.

These are just the first things that pop to my head. I am sure there is a reason for name claiming to be allowed that I have not realized yet, and I could see why people would not want to play a game with a bunch of vanilla's. Just my 2 cents.
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I don't think that not role-claiming will help the wolves, after all, how else are they going to find out who the power roles are unless the person with the power role reveals it?
 
JewelQuest said:
I don't think that not role-claiming will help the wolves, after all, how else are they going to find out who the power roles are unless the person with the power role reveals it?
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Go take a look at KP's role card from WW 16 (aka the one we just played)

He was a wolf role cop.

---------- Post added 07/27/2012 at 11:51 AM ----------

Also, i'm a HUGE fan of a return to vanilla roles. Or if you must, have roles that say they'll do X but they have a hidden 100% failure rate not revealed until a certain event or time period.
 
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cabd said:
Go take a look at KP's role card from WW 15 (aka the one we just played)

He was a wolf role cop.

---------- Post added 07/27/2012 at 11:51 AM ----------

Also, i'm a HUGE fan of a return to vanilla roles. Or if you must, have roles that say they'll do X but they have a hidden 100% failure rate not revealed until a certain event or time period.
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Yeah, I remember that, but I still think it would be hard for either wolf or town to win if role-revealing was banned.
 
You can't "ban" role revealing, as it's too subjective.

You can ban flipping your entire role card, but that's it.
 
Actually the game we just played was XVI, not XV.


However, I do agree with Cabd that we cannot just ban RRing. There is a lot of subjectivity (with crumbing your role and other instances) that makes firmly banning it almost unenforceable. If we WERE to ban RRing, then the town would also lose the strength of the seer. When a Seer RRs to say they've cleared 3 players and flip 1 wolf, that is a very strong strategy. And would be illegal if we banned RRs.


There are ways to combat Massclaims that don't involve banning RRs, which I think shouldn't happen anyway. RR is sometimes the only way to get out of a lynch, and it also is required for claiming Seer with multiple reads.

Some of the methods to combat Massclaims (which is really the main issue, not that RRing is bad, its that it leads to Massclaim which must be planned for): More VTs. More Wolf PRs. RRV/RRA roles. More ambiguous names. And others.
 
@SS7,JQ,Cabd

Those are all very good points. I really like what cabd is doing with his game on 6p with the hidden abilities.
 
Thanks for doing all of the research for this. It was informative.

I for one like the idea of a complete anon game. Why couldn't you just have people PM the mod and first X players to PM are in the game and everyone else goes on a waiting list.

I know doouble posts get combined but why does the MOD need a bump?
 
Which honestly should only be at the request of the mod to a specific player (Better yet the CO-MOD could bump it) every night. We don't need a bump immediately after the day ends because the thread isn't going anywhere. The mod knows what is happening.
 
After 48ish hours (maybe longer) you can actually double post and NOT have the posts lumped together.
You could also have someone bump, post, then have them delete their bump
 
bluenation said:
Thanks for doing all of the research for this. It was informative.

I for one like the idea of a complete anon game. Why couldn't you just have people PM the mod and first X players to PM are in the game and everyone else goes on a waiting list.

I know doouble posts get combined but why does the MOD need a bump?
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Anon games are legit, from our testing so far. Makes it impossible to rely upon nothing but reads from past games. Makes who gets lynched/wolf killed based upon current play, not past play.
 
As for role revealing, how about just making it to where anyone that role reveals (or fakes one) just can't post for the rest of the game day. That way, a seer could get out info, or someone can defend themselves as a "last ditch" effort. I for one can say that I hated being pressured into revealing my role in the past game.

As for Vanilla, I think the mods can keep doing what they've been doing. My role last game was basically vanilla, as it was a role that only dodged a few specific things. Although, I kinda got lynched because I had such a role, so I think there should be more vanilish type roles.
 
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