Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Preleases running out of Promos

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PTO orders are on a 3 month delay. I.e. they order their stuff based on the previous Prerelease, and no other number. Ummm, yes, and no - see below.

TPCi orders are on a much longer delay. I don't know what that delay is, but my guess is about 6 months.

So if there's explosive growth for two consecutive sets, then the PTOs will have it in hand for the next set as long as that next set doesn't also have explosive growth. However, they might get shorted promotional items like the boxes or promos b/c TPCi's delay is 2 sets, bare minimum. Again, not necessarily - see below. [/QUOTE]

In truth, PTO's orders are made aproximately one month (give or take a week or so) before the event series are supposed to start, and are based on the attendance at the last series *plus a percentage for growth (current PTO's might be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the percentage was 20% while I was still a PTO), AND a 'reasonable amount for personal use.' This personal use is not necessarily to be used to stock a store for the upcoming 3 months, but for personal use by the PTO. However who judges what is 'reasonable'? Some PTO's use that as a safety net to make sure they have enough boosters when running prereleases. (True story - I actually got asked once to reduce my order since my last prerelease didn't warrant the order I was asking for, and orders from other PTO's ran them out of available "prerelease" stock. Due to that, I came extremely close to not having enough at that series of events.) However, the promotional items are purely based upon attendance at the last prerelease events. Sometimes promotional items are short shipped from the source as well, so we had to share as best as possible. So that shows that PTO's can be blindsided - not only by a lackluster previous or current set, appathy of players, shortage of purely "prerelease" stock of boosters at TPCi, shortage of promo items due to large orders from other PTO's or from the source, attendance at nearby prereleases from another PTO on the same day, or by huge attendance at current or previous events. Growth over 20% can't be addressed, whether a good set is coming up or not. That's why it's such a crapshoot for the PTO's. Keeping good customer relations helps, and polling the players from time to time on their preferences, but it still will boil down to using the tools you have available.

I will comment on another post about available options.
 
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I would assume it means the amount a PTO and their immediate family would open for their own use - for collecting the set and/or using for their decks (within limits - not having a full playset of Rayquaza ex, I'm sure).

I'm also assuming that is extremely subjective. One person's concept of personal use may be entirely different than another's. Soooo .... what does personal use mean? You tell me! Ha ha.

Oh yeah, one more thing, leftover promotional items are available to the PTO to do as they please with, but as was mentioned in another post, they are given "STAFF" promos to be given to event staff, and for their collection - usually 2 packs of 5 per each event. Every PTO is different I'm sure, but I only kept 1 pack (or as few as 1 promo) of "STAFF" cards, and 1 card of the regular prerelease cards. All others were given out as needed, or given away at later events.
 
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What does "personal use" mean?

PTOs in my area use the additional supply to reward judges (although the amount of reward varies by PTO), and also in one case to give away 2 extra packs if a player brings someone new (never been to an organized event before) to the pre-release. Not for the PTO to use personally, to open, sell, or auction off.
 
Ah yes, that's another use for the "personal use" boosters. I forgot about that aspect as well. Thank you FincastlePokemon2 for bringing it up. Those judge support boosters (whether they are just a few packs or as many as a couple boxes) are entirely paid by the PTO - not as part of a compensation package that are included free of charge at other events such as BR's and CC's to the PTO's. That's why some PTO's may have lower staff during those prerelease events, since whatever they compensate the event staff beyond the supplied promo "STAFF" cards comes out of their pocket. However, you are wrong in that personal use DOES also mean actual personal use - to open as they see fit. Rules are in place to make sure PTO's don't sell or auction off boosters at the prerelease, but once the set is released to the public, any leftover product that the PTO has in their possession can be distributed as they see fit since they in effect "own" it and eventually have to pay for it. If a particular PTO decides he/she has too many unopened full boxes of product (boosters or theme decks cases) left over once all their events are finished they have the opportunity to send some back to TPCi (the shipping of which are) at their own expense. Once everything has been calculated as to who owes what to whom, the PTO's have to pay for the product, making sure they have a balance of $0 before the next set of prereleases are ordered otherwise they won't be allowed any further events. Personally I never heard anyone tell about anyone losing the opportunity to do events for that reason, so I guess that's pretty effective. As for promotional items left over from any particular prerelease, the PTO's can distribute these or keep for their own use, as they see fit. That means that if a PTO DOES happen to keep a few extra promos back (unlikely as that sounds), they can use them or send them to orphanages, or perhaps their favorite aunt, sell them or give them away - as they see fit. So if you happen to notice a PTO has extras of promotional items after the series of prereleases are over, and you didn't get one, why don't you politely ask if you can have one, letting them know you didn't get one at the prerelease. I'm positive they'd be happy to accommodate your polite request.
 
PA: That's pretty much what I mean. PTOs know almost exactly how much they're allowed to order just about the moment that their previous Prereleases end. For them, that's a 3 month lead time.

As far as TPCi's availability of promos, I seem to remember seeing a post somewhere about how far in advance each set has to be ordered in order to be released on time. Something like 6 months IIRC. My assumption, then, is that Prerelease promos have to be ordered with at least that much lead time.

I also recall the frankly insane amount of lead time necessary to get the promotional items ordered and in stock. I don't remember how long THAT was either. But I recall it having to do with sea-based shipping from China for those items. That can't be a short lead time, even under the best of circumstances. This was the reason that the Dragon Frontiers deck box is one of the rarest Pokemon promotional items ever made. They couldn't get it in on time.

Basically, I'm blaming the necessary lead time from TPCi for the lack of promos and items. And I don't think there's any way to reduce the lead time without significantly increasing the cost per item.
 
Here's some options that are available which can help alleviate problems before, during and after prerelease events - some suggestions for players, PTO's and TPCi.


Players: you know you frequent pokebeach. Don't deny it. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but let's face it, Jon and pals tend to have the premier website for pokemon information. Keep track of upcoming trends, sets, and info regarding exciting new sets, and by all means talk up any of this upcoming exciting stuff with friends.


Have a good relationship with your PTO, and if you think a particular set (or card) will be huge in the format (and therefore might bring larger attendance), let them know well in advance of the prereleases so they can order as much stock as possible.


Be aware that mistakes happen and start times do sometimes get published wrongly. Confirm the address and start times as far in advance as possible. Get a good night's sleep if at all possible, and be washed and use a deodorant since in many cases you may be in a crowd and don't want to be looked down upon for poor hygene. Go to the event early to make sure you get in the registration line well in advance - that way you will be assured entry into the prerelease. If at all possible, bring extra money, just in case you need to contribute for gas expenses, food, or possible side events (which can be really fun!) If you do happen to show up late, make the best of it and enjoy as much of it as you can.



Bring a good attitude - appreciative, warm, and welcoming, not beligerant, contemptable or intolerant. Realize that some people may not know all the cards off by heart, and some (as in both cards and people too) may require a bit of getting used to. Thank both the event staff and also the store or venue owner for allowing the event in that venue. Show that you are looking forward to the next upcoming event, and they will work hard to make your experience just as nice for the next prerelease as well.


Consider doing a theme deck challenge if you are a casual player. It would benefit newer players to have helpful seasoned players as opponents. They may or may not win against these seasoned players, but will always learn something, prompting them to return, boosting growth. You may find that if you are a collector as well that theme decks have some alternate cards you may have never had the chance to acquire otherwise. Believe me, it's a win-win situation and promotes more player participation.


PTO's: be aware of upcoming sets, learning as much as possible about the composition of them from sources (pokebeach, players, hints, and any possible skuttlebutt or gossip available) to influence your prerelease order. If you know your players think a set will be great, a card (or cards) from the set will be somewhat gamebreaking, extremely valuable and hard to get, or that there's a possibility of new and interesting card varients (like this new 'dragon' type), then max out on your order as much as possible - you'll be glad you did. You may not get as many promotional items as you need if you do end up with a large attendance, but sharing what is available from older players who may not care to have the promos, redistributing among the younger groups will encourage sharing, caring and loyal customers.


Again, max out your order as much as possible. Build anticipation by talking about the set and event series long before you even send in an order. Attempt to go past your comfort zone and allow room for side events, getting enough extra product for possible drafts, or even secondary side prerelease events. Many players love to play in a side event to get more product if available, and if you promote it (a side prerelease event, draft, mutant draft, theme deck challenge, or a combination of those) loyal customers will be sure to take advantage of it. IIRC, I think there was even a prerelease that we had a main event and 3 side events! A full day of pokemon for those who can afford to do so makes the event a great success returning many loyal customers. It also tends to eliminate extra stock sitting around gathering dust that you have to pay for.



Try running a theme deck challenge for new players and promote participation by casual seasoned players. You can run this as a side event or at the same time as the main prerelease event. You may find you get a number of people willing to play in that event EVERY prerelease - I did. Many people find it attractive to not have to create a deck, making decisions about content. They just open up their boxes, sleeve the cards if they want, and play. If you find you don't have enough interest to get 8 players in a pod, (here's where foresight comes in handy) and you still have players who are interested in purchasing the theme decks, you can drop 20 cards from their decks and allow them to play in with the other players. If you had the foresight to look over the contents of the theme decks beforehand, you might offer a decklist suitable for the player that you made with only 40 of the available 60 cards. Not only will that speed up your event start time, but it will also cut down on time needed by event staff to oversee any deck changes.


Bring a good customer friendly attitude, welcoming everyone and thanking them for attendance. If you have more than one prerelease, bring as much product and promotional materials as you can or as seems fitting. For example, if you have 2 events, don't leave half of everything at home. If you have 3 events, don't leave 2/3 of the material at home. Larger attendance may surprise you and you might not have enough promotional items to go around. Use common sense as to how much you might possibly use though, not allowing a whole event's worth of product to be used at a previous event.


If time permits, mention any worthy combos you noticed and found interesting in the set. Let people realize you know not everyone will be able to pull off those combos due to the luck of the draw, but pique their interest to see how that turns out.

Do everything possible when it comes to problem solving. Good customer relations are paramount. You want them to keep coming back don't you? If there is a problem discuss with them your solution and see if that may appease. If not, try finding out what they would suggest as a solution. Maybe you can have some common ground. Even when profanity is used against you, a mild answer sometimes can calm things down. Violence and cheating/stealing however should never be tolerated.


Run the main event with as few rounds as you can - dropping the event after as few as 3 rounds (with low attendance), allowing TOM to let you know what the standings are. Let's face it, during a normal prerelease what else is there to gain by playing out all possible rounds? Players won't get any extra boosters, that's for sure! (However let's look at this in another suggestion below.) This will allow you to get to more fun side events where you can offer prizes as you see fit.


Don't be cheap! Consider what you give as compensation to your staff as an investment in loyalty. If staff is well trained and helpful, make it known that you appreciate it, and are willing to compensate them for it. Lackluster compensation breeds lackluster work in the future and poor loyalty.


Speaking of that, it's nice to give out an extra pack or two for those who are new to the game (possibly adding extra promotional items from earlier events as you may have available) so they continue to come back and feel that they get value for their investment. PTO's sometimes don't realize that they aren't the only ones with an investment in pokemon.


And hey, I know this is sorta frowned upon, but now and then it may not do a lot of harm to occasionally drop an extra pack per age group on the winner of an event, if you happen to have a few available - side events especially, since everybody likes to know they are appreciated when they win. Again, don't be cheap! Disclaimer: Don't let TPCi know I told you that!


Thank the players for coming after the event is over, and show genuine interest in them - not just as your customers. If the venue is not yours, be sure to thank the owner personally. Believe it or not, occasionally thanking TPCi for the opportunity to run these events will go a long way towards goodwill in the future as well.


Continue to look for new venues and league locations, not relying on others to do the work for you, assisting them any way possible and where feasible, since this too breeds loyalty and possible new sources of future prerelease venues. If you have only 2 or fewer prereleases currently, bug TPCi to allow you to use these new venues for new prereleases CONSTANTLY! You must have heard the old expression, "the squeeky wheel gets the grease." Sooner or later, when one becomes available, you may be able to acquire another one. And if it's successful, then it may become permanent.

Upload your events as soon as possible, and figure out what you owe as soon as possible. Procrastination doesn't pay.

TPCi: Hmmm long comment, maybe I better give suggestions in another post.
 
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I'm friends with quite a few PTOs on Facebook. I swear that the two most common status updates they post are either "OMG biggest attendance EVA!!!" and "WTH smallest attendance eva..." I see at least 2-3 of those statuses during every Premier event cycle, including Prereleases. Now, that's not a scientific thing, and I get that. But I think there are some areas that might follow a "blind squirrels" trend more than anything else.

As far as my current area, I'm in fairly close contact with the PTO. He told me that the growth he's seen over the last 6 months is unprecedented during his time as a PTO (basically since TPCi took over). His events are usually fairly predictable as far as attendance. But 100% growth event-to-event AND year-over-year is insane, and his allowable orders just can't follow that kind of growth.
Of course, there will be times when forecast is completely off the mark, both in the positive and negative.

I feel that I should add that what I am saying shouldn't be taken as the right way if it doesn't work for you. If you (and PokePop) say it is more guesswork than one would think, then there must be something to that. You don't run prereleases for as long as you have by not knowing what you are doing. If my comments have a tone of "I know better," that was not the intention.
 
I talked to my PTO yesterday. He has some Altaria promo leftovers. He plans to keep them for other TOs in our area who might run out. The PTOs and TOs in our area work well together to cover each others' back.

In the past, our PTO gave out really old promos and pre-release cards during league occassionally. Some of the newer, younger players, who'd never seen the promos before, loved them. I remember seeing one young girl who almost cried when she got the lily-pad Mew. I doubt the Altaria promo will make it that far to these occassional give-aways.
 
It all depends on the area. Where I was up until this past winter, I could pretty much pinpoint my attendance at every Premier event to within 10%. But just 2 hours north of me, Jimmy had a lot more trouble at correctly guessing his attendance. And where I am right now, I have no idea what the steady-state would be. Pop's been doing this a lot longer and for a lot larger area, he's probably got more experience than I'll ever have with this.
 
I talked to my PTO yesterday. He has some Altaria promo leftovers. He plans to keep them for other TOs in our area who might run out. The PTOs and TOs in our area work well together to cover each others' back.

In the past, our PTO gave out really old promos and pre-release cards during league occassionally. Some of the newer, younger players, who'd never seen the promos before, loved them. I remember seeing one young girl who almost cried when she got the lily-pad Mew. I doubt the Altaria promo will make it that far to these occassional give-aways.

Thats really nice, our PTO doesn't really have a working relationship with any other PTO's in the area.
 
I'll make a point to counter one make by P_A: Even with "good" or "bad" sets, attendance can vary greatly. Time of the year can help/hurt #s too. I have tracked my events for years and sometimes, a set just blindsides you (good and bad). No PTO ever wants to turn a player away bc they ran out. No PTO ever wants to tell a player "no more promos left", but it happens sometimes.

Right now, our supplies have been limited bc of recent spikes in attendance were greater than anticipated. Some PTOs were shorted as much as half of their promo request/order on this set and last. We as a PTO group try to send the extras around to those that were shorted or ran out. It is what we do. I am proud to say that I have both sent out and rec'd extras, when needed.

I, like many longer term PTOs, have some old promos leftover that we save for rainy days like this. I will be taking some older deckboxes with me for this saturday's event. I am sure I will run out of the new box and promo this time. (had a higher turnout than anticipated week 1) I will ask any player that played in week 1 to not take a promo/box until I know that others have gotten theirs 1st. (usually MAs who are happy to oblige). People understand when you are up front with them and try your best each time out.

As to SteveP....PTOs aren't authorized to give a partial refund for lack of promos. They are advertised as a bonus and "while supplies last". Now, if a player found out I was out of promos and that was a deal breaker for them, then they dont have to pay for anything...they can leave. (I give out the deckbox and promo when they sign up and pay)

Keith
 
I agree with you totally Keith, but just out of curiousity, what point of mine were you actually countering, since I'm not sure I see it?

---------- Post added 08/03/2012 at 09:55 AM ----------

Ok, here's the third part of my suggestions, directed at TPCi: (You can consider the source at your leisure, but suggestions such as these came at the price of experience, and hopefully won't be discarded out of hand.) This of course is based on the idea that you at TPCi would notice or care for suggestions - both of which I'm sure the answer is 'yes.' Whether or not you can implement them is another matter.

Ok, you obviously want to grow the game, but still keep within your budget. So besides BR's, what better way is there to speak to the grass roots of the players than to support growth in prereleases? Make it a goal to offer the possibility of another prerelease to those PTO's that currently have less than 4 - if they can find support at a stable location. The reason why I suggest this for only those having less than 4 is that those who have 5 or more can't personally attend and participate in the prerelease experience with their players AT EVERY EVENT, but have to rely upon employees to do their jobs for them and interact with someone else's players for the PTO's at at least one of their events. Ok, this is not to say that they haven't earned the right to get more events due to their dilligence in rustling up venues that are well supported, but that they can't personally oversee some growth. Give an opportunity to those who willing and able to expand to actually do so. And if they are worthy, and the prereleases are supported, then they can become permanent - otherwise a trial run can't hurt.

Try to institute a "+5%" policy where you order +5% of the promotional materials necessary to fill the PTO's prerelease orders. This will in turn make you able to fill any shortfall PTO's have due to large attendance at their events. I realize this will add to your budget, especially when you'll have to send more cards through the mail, but you'll have much better and faster customer relations, and not have to rely upon the generousity of your PTO's to somehow route any shortfall to other PTO's and then wait to route the missing promotional item to the player. Conversely, you could reduce the amount of prerelease promotional items that you supply (specifically sleeves and deck boxes), and authorize, license and outsource shipping to your suppliers of pokemon products (allowing a greater variety of pokemon products to be available for those events including shirts, since I'm sure there is a market for them among both the judging staff and the players), so individual PTO's can order them directly from your suppliers - in effect cutting out the middle man. That way they are going to be responsible for how many or few and how many of each products they are willing to supply. That way you don't get blamed for any shortfall, and you can reduce your prices for packages to the PTO's and gain some money for your budget that can be used elsewhere. It's a win-win situation for you, since then you can shift more money to other areas of the budget where they'll be more visible to the players.

More posts on this later.
 
...Right now, our supplies have been limited bc of recent spikes in attendance were greater than anticipated. Some PTOs were shorted as much as half of their promo request/order on this set and last. We as a PTO group try to send the extras around to those that were shorted or ran out. It is what we do. I am proud to say that I have both sent out and rec'd extras, when needed.

......

As to SteveP....PTOs aren't authorized to give a partial refund for lack of promos. They are advertised as a bonus and "while supplies last". Now, if a player found out I was out of promos and that was a deal breaker for them, then they dont have to pay for anything...they can leave. (I give out the deckbox and promo when they sign up and pay)

Keith
The following is from my PTO:

PTOs who order early will generally get their full order of supplies (boxes and promos). PTOs who order late might not.

The "while supplies last" disclaimer applies to PTOs as well.

Regarding a partial refund for no promos, I didn't make that recommendation. I recommended giving the player a choice:

1) don't register/pay, or get a full refund (no boosters, nothing)
2) a substitute (different promo/box)

Optimally, TPCi doesn't want to over-produce promos, and PTOs don't want to over-order product. Doing so "eats" into the profit margin. But then again, many companies over-stock knowing full-well they're not going to sell everything. This is expecially true with grocery stores and how they stock short-shelf-life items such as produce, meat, and dairy. Why do they do it anyway? It's more about "image" than profit margin. Customers like to see fully-stocked shelves. I hate going to the store to buy my favorite cereal, only to find the shelf empty. And, I'm sure we've all seen those "got milk" commercials where the person is "in a panic" running around town trying to find a store that's not out of milk.

So, being over-stocked, and making a profit are somewhat at-odds. Do you please your customers or your stock-holders. That's one of those paradoxes of capitalism.:frown:
 
TPCi makes the championship series promos generic for the purpose of giving them out at different events. Although they fall far short compared to what this one promo is, could that be a fall-back plan to when TPCi runs out of stock of a promo?
 
However Steve, remember that any overage in promotional materials can be easily used up as prizes at Nationals, League, and unsanctioned events for example Gencon, SanDiego comicon, etc as giveaways and advertising. +5% isn't an outrageous number, considering it's only 4 times a year, and chances are that they have only a slight idea how many are going to be needed. They may already print that many extra promos, just in case PTO's get a run on sets, then just destroy any overage. If they are printed well in advance of prereleases, before their orders come in, then +5% might not be a problem - however,if TPCi thinks I'm wrong, then how about +3%?

Still more suggestions to come - just need time to type them up.
 
@P_A: You said good sets draw the best attendance,,,,not always true. I've had lackluster sets do well in my area for the PR bc of the time of year it hits. Also, you said to throw an extra pack or 2 to the winners. That is a HUGE No No with TPCi and PTOs can lose events if they do this. Those are 2 points I disagree with from your wall of text.

Keith
 
Ah, sure, ok, I can see that. Yes, on that point you're right. When I was a PTO even good sets could have poor attendance, and you can overcome a bad set and get good attendance. Any number of reasons really. Poor attendance could be just problems with traffic. Good attendance could be phenomenal advertising, and a good relationship with loyal players. All things being equal, chances are good for good attendance with good sets. However like I said, PTO's can still be blindsided with good or bad attendance. Learning from trends, and upcoming sets can still be useful in determining orders - to a point.

Wall of text? Yeah, I have a hard time being concise at times, and tend to over-explain points now and then. Can't see that changing any time soon.

As for the rest, I think I suggested giving a pack or two to new players (or hey, maybe unofficially stacking the deck towards new players in a "random draw"), but only one per age group for winning a prerelease. Uummm, I can see your .... and their point on that, but that's another suggestion for TPCi. Come on guys, how competitive do you think prereleases would get if PTO's had an option (just an option if they had available boosters AND they felt inclined to do so) to add one extra booster PER AGE GROUP - 3 WHOLE BOOSTERS without recriminations? How much harm do you honestly think it would cause? By the way, those were rhetorical questions. I know PTO's have virtually no option but to publicly agree with rules laid down by TPCi, but whatever opinion you hold is your own. All I ask, and many of the players as well, is that you just think about it. Bring it up in discussions (or not) - your choice.
 
Come on guys, how competitive do you think prereleases would get if PTO's had an option (just an option if they had available boosters AND they felt inclined to do so) to add one extra booster PER AGE GROUP - 3 WHOLE BOOSTERS without recriminations?

Now we get into a question of worldview. I suspect that the first time, especially if it wasn't made a big deal, that it would make almost no difference either way. After about a year, the most "competitive", that is to the point of being overly competitive (I feel several more accurate descriptors are available, but they are also personal value judgments so I'll avoid them) will indeed start taking things seriously. It is only one pack, but then again it is one pack. The things people will do for a few bucks can be truly astounding... and in this case, the contents of a single extra booster from recent sets could be worth a good $50.

Now, that being said, I still might see fit to allow that, but we have to get a good idea of how much the player base honestly embraces Spirit Of The Game. Let's face it; if we all did it naturally then they wouldn't have had to codify it.:lol:
 
~

Now we get into a question of worldview. I suspect that the first time, especially if it wasn't made a big deal, that it would make almost no difference either way. After about a year, the most "competitive", that is to the point of being overly competitive (I feel several more accurate descriptors are available, but they are also personal value judgments so I'll avoid them) will indeed start taking things seriously. It is only one pack, but then again it is one pack. The things people will do for a few bucks can be truly astounding... and in this case, the contents of a single extra booster from recent sets could be worth a good $50.

Now, that being said, I still might see fit to allow that, but we have to get a good idea of how much the player base honestly embraces Spirit Of The Game. Let's face it; if we all did it naturally then they wouldn't have had to codify it.:lol:

Did you just refuse to read my posts a few above this???? :confused: PTOs CANNOT give extra packs to winners of an age group!!!

Keith
 
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