psychup2034
New Member
No, what Pokepop is saying is that if he has 100 players in the draft, 99 of them also played in the PR before the draft. Big difference.
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No, what Pokepop is saying is that if he has 100 players in the draft, 99 of them also played in the PR before the draft. Big difference.
He's saying that his numbers for the draft are smaller than his numbers for the PR, but he has almost no one coming exclusively for the draft since most of the players in his draft also played in the PR.
No, not at all. Generally, I get about 2/3rds of the players staying for a draft.
What it means is that if I have 20 players in the draft, all 20 of them usually had also played in the prerelease. Once in a while, every few events, someone shows up late and plays in the draft without having been at the prerelease.
If it ever became an issue where numerous players were skipping the PR and just coming for the draft, then I probably would enforce a rule about participation in the PR. But I don't have that problem, so I don't have a rule.
No. Not at all. Through experience, I noted that players were not enjoying rounds 4 & 5. They were all ready to be done with their sealed decks after three rounds. They were all ready to either call it a day or move on to another activity, such as the draft.
Again, 1/3 of the players were not. It is that third, the young players with parents, and new players, that the PR format is better suited for than a draft format. Again, we are trying to meet their needs and grow the game. I am doing this by offering a combination of activities, some that suitable for all players, and some that are better suited for competitive players.
I've made my reasoning pretty clear on why adding competition to a PR is a bad idea.
PTOs are not all agreeing with this point because we are Stepford wives. They have lived through the issues that prizes brought into PRs and those problems greatly outweighed the benefits.
Agree with it or not, competition via prizes for winning are not coming into PRs.
And I'm done with this and the related topic. I've said everything that I can say within my NDA.
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UnpokemonMom
New Member
And as a newcomer, and a parent with younger kids, I do appreciate a "competitive" environment that isn't cutthroat competitive. All the kids want to win, of course, but I didn't see any crying or bad sportmanship when they lost.
I enjoyed the pre-release events as opportunities to get the new cards before the stores sell them, as well as the opportunity to meet older players (the league events in our area seem to be mostly kids) and a chance to practice my new skills!
And, if I might suggest, having players request that from their PTOs would be a productive discussion, rather than pushing for changes to the PR structure that have zero chance of happening. :thumb:
Caveat: Some venues would not allow the TO to hold side drafts. This should be taken into account so it may not be possible for all PRs to have side drafts.
raznprince
New Member
Funny you mentioned that, Pop, because I know a particular region that is notorious for this as I have witnessed (not participated) firsthand experience. While I no longer play in said region due to military relocation and personally do not agree with this practice, I will play the "ignorance" card and say it's the PTO's event and he/she does what he/she wants to satisfy his/her players. It is not my intention to start a junk storm mentioning this, therefore I will not publicly divulge any specifics out of fear of reprisal, but any brass with particular interest in this issue can PM me. At the very least, it is worth noting that there are places out there that do as you mentioned.
This is to point out to the general public that not all PTOs conduct their consnesus set 3 rounds of PRs. Some choose to extend based on division attendance with the opportunity available to drop after the third round. Imo, 3 rounds of PR does promote more fun and less competition and is more efficient use of players' time.
Other than taking a food break, who, after having dropped after 3 rounds of PR would be interested in playing in a draft but has to wait on players who are also interested in playing in the draft but choose to play out their PR rounds? This, of course, assumes that there is sufficient product to support a draft after the PR.
Yes. But of course, it depends on there being sufficient supplies.
Occasionally I have to limit the size of the side event due to how much product I have and to make sure I have enough for remaining PRs.
homeofmew
Active Member
I don't have any issue with the PR structure, the 3 round thing done here and other parts of the country doesn't bother me at all.
Actually I like it. All I was saying it would be nice is pokemon had different formats of tournaments once and a while ie pass-drafts.
Now I am not implying we should have like type 1, type 2, standard, vintage, ect. But booster drafts, and maybe one other type of play other than modified- constructed.
I didn't mean that you did have issues. I was talking to the participants in the thread, in general. Those that are pushing for changes in the PR format. I'm saying that what you are saying, that having side events where they are not currently offered would be nice, is a better avenue to explore.
Otaku
Active Member
To be fair, the other thread had a problem: the most vocal poster and topic starter pushing for change has very specific changes in mind that undermine the point of the Pre-Release. It made it very hard to get anything useful out of the thread constantly having to point out flawed reasoning. :wink:
So it took a while for good ideas like encouraging shorter Pre-Releases main events and having a side event as well. Locations that can't get enough time for a longer tournament are justified in having just one event, or when product is too scarce, etc. The point of a Pre-Release is to show off new product while at the same time providing an extremely laid back, minimally competitive tournament environment. It is mostly a training exercise, the step between Pokemon League and Battle Roads.
Seriously, it is a tournament structured so that new players and experienced players will both need time to build a deck and write out a deck list; imagine if it was a regular, constructed event! Better to have something where people learn the motions for a serious tournament in a less serious atmosphere.
Tying all this into the main discussion, it brings up supply issues for Pre-Releases. TPCi needs to really work on their logistics, because Pre-Releases, especially with additional side events, are a beautiful way to satisfy the whole player base. I know shipping everything back and forth can be a huge issue because it is a huge expense and a hassle besides. A single promo running out in select locations is an embarrassment but not a gamekiller. Having it happen to regularly, or finding out that supplies are just too limited for the event? That can be a real turn off to would-be customers.
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
Your ignoring the point that many people have made. The ONLY possible way for this to work is to have it week 1 day 1 and every tournament MUST start at exactly the same time otherwise PEOPLE WILL CHEAT. If its day 1 week 1 and everything starts at noon then people wont have cards to cheat with and it could be feasible. But sunday of the first weekend would have to be the prereleases we have now.
Swordfish1989
New Member
In a different TCG I used to play in the pre-releases were competitive. Winners won playmats, deckboxes, and packs. But at the same time, all pre-releases happened at the same day at the same time.
People would be given their packs to open. After opening, you'd record all of the cards you received on a paper they gave you. Then you'd fold up the paper (with the cards) and hand it to the TO. After everyone finished, the TO would hand those 'packs' out randomly (no one ever got the cards they pulled themselves) and only then would you build a deck.
It was very well run, and no one could cheat.
People would be given their packs to open. After opening, you'd record all of the cards you received on a paper they gave you. Then you'd fold up the paper (with the cards) and hand it to the TO. After everyone finished, the TO would hand those 'packs' out randomly (no one ever got the cards they pulled themselves) and only then would you build a deck.
It was very well run, and no one could cheat.
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
Yes this is the best way to prevent cheating. This biggest difference is the young kids, the games you played were probably mostly players over 15. How do you tell a 9 year old to give back the hooh ex he just pulled and take this beautifly. Thats the biggest reason(along with pokemon not being designed for limited events) sealed cant be done comprtively with pokemon.
homeofmew
Active Member
:thumb: Yeah after playing the game year after year, it kinda gets boring JUST playing modified constructed and limited sealed. Although Modified constructed does keep the game playable. Junk Arm was a card for example I am kinda sad yet glad to see go. But every format seems to have its pros and cons - which seems to be part of the game.
P_A
Active Member
:lol: LOL, Well, not sure If I should tell you this Otaku, but the PTO's up in Ontario must be cutting edge, since those suggestions have been in practice for years - since probably my second year as a PTO. I was one of the pioneers of the 3 round event, and extra side events - up to as many as 3. That's why the players in this neck of the woods are chomping at the bit to see some change - ANY change that makes it look like there's progress. People come up to me and say, "Boy I wish the main event of prereleases were more like your side events were, Garret." All I can say is, "Ummm, yeah, I understand. Thanks for the compliment." And believe it or not, those are from people I meet from all over Ontario ON THE STREET! I never go to league, have only played in a total of 2 prereleases since I retired, and dropped into other events maybe twice in 2 years without playing (once just to drop the key to the venue off). What is an embarassment is that people get used to the status quo and have no desire to change. That's cool if they like it that way - don't get me wrong, and nothing says anyone has to take my pushy advice, but without a desire to make things better it's like you're on a river in a canoe. You have a paddle, but you figure there's no need to use it to get ahead, so you just leave it in the boat. Funny thing is, leaving it in the boat means that you fall behind and go backwards whether you like it or not. Eventually - maybe not today, but sooner or later, without some positive effort to make things better in any way (not just for competitive players or to entice box buyers), people will lose interest, and everyone will have to pay the consequences, not just those stuck in the status quo. In any case, I don't let other people's opinion of me get me down. Thanks for the post.
Otaku
Active Member
Pokepop is from Ontario? And all the other PTO's and players posting about it on the threads other than you? :thumb: Kudos if you helped pioneer it, but it doesn't sound like you're alone.
The shouldn't this have been something you broached yourself? As in your first post here or in your related topic? Did I just miss it?
Think of the useful arguments you could have presented with this as a basis... instead of having it come up how many posts and days later?You could also inform them of why the main Pre-release isn't like a side event; even if TPCi capitulated to your desires, it simple is unlikely to work. Bigger Prizes don't yield better Pre-Releases. Everyone needs to receive the same reward for playing through the main event to make sure it serves its purpose. Perhaps you should see about organizing regular draft tournaments? Inquire if they are interested in that?
You've made it clear you either don't understand the natural human desire to cheat to win, even at a non-competitive children's card game, or refuse to accept it. Needless to say, I will show you proper respect and tolerate your religious views, but as they conflict not only with my own but with my personal experience as a human (both "from the inside" and from without), this does make it hard for me to take much of what you say at face value. I suspect at least minor embellishment, to be honest. Exaggeration and oversimplification are common bedfellows on message boards, and I myself use them far too often.
If this comes across as an insult, then I do apologize. This is an observation, and since I don't know you except from some posts on a single website, I freely confess it is almost certainly incomplete if not flat out wrong. Yet this is our medium of conversation. I need a reference for evaluating the discussion, and this is what I have.
Taking what you said at face value, it doesn't really prove anything beyond what your players perceive, what they think they want. You know how many times I've gotten what I wanted and regretted it later?
If you address the situation in person the way you do here, you really are encouraging such a response.Can't really agree with your assessment. Your paint laziness where there is understanding. I could play with words as well if you wish:
Your push for improvements is like walking. When you need to reach a goal, be it a location or exercising, walking is good. Sometimes you may need to go faster than walking... but no matter what you don't walk all the time. You don't try to walk while sleeping (barring obvious exceptions :lol
, it isn't really a good idea to insist on walking while eating, either. If you were my surgeon and insisted on performing the operation on a treadmill, you wouldn't be surgeon for much longer!Progress is only progress when it is an improvement. The thing is, I believe there is room for progress and that we should push for it, but we need to really identify it first. If we have a player base clamoring for Limited events with Prize Support, let's try and get more than Pre-Releases! Let's see if we can make Limited tournaments a regular thing for Pokemon, with the proper set-design and rarity scheme to make it worth it! I think I am not only already behind that, but beginning to push for it!:thumb:
Good to hear considering I am giving you another hearty post.
tl;dr: P_A is convinced that adding Prize support will make things better based on the results of side events; I am convinced it will make things worse based on the results of past Pre-Releases that had more Prize support. I find several of his assertions questionable, and everything I know warns me that "progress for the sake of progress" is anything but.
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