Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Proposing a possible first: Ban from Unlimited?

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You missed the point.

In Unlimited you either play Slowking or play Anti-king.
You play ER/SER or Anti-ER/SER.
You play Super Speed or Disruption (or both).
You play Gym or Counter Gym.

That's why it's Unlimited. Nothing wrong with Trainermon. Except i don't want you to play it against me. Hence my use of Slowking to counter your deck.
 
Ok, for the people who still play rogue unlimited, slowking is a killer. The first ban from unlimited should definately be slowking. Not only does he ruin the game with his one-sided complete trainer denial, he has become an archetype that you HAVE to play a deck against to beat. I agree with the people who say slowking is banned, however I don't agree with BJJ763 in saying that everyone plays those, because they don't. The people who truely play unlimited play it rogue and play it fun. If you can't understand that, then you are one of the many that the con-slowking are against, because you play and build those decks. you ruin our fun.
 
And that, BJJ763, is the problem. There are those few cards that you play, counter, or both. I think a lot of players are getting disappointed because of this. While limiting Unlimited seems counter-intuitive, many of these situations can be fixed with reprints that change the nature of the cards somewhat. Slowking can (and, IMO, should) be reprinted as what it should have been all along -- the wording that the Japanese version had. SER could become a Supporter, I suppose, but I don't really think it's necessary. The (S)ER/anti-(S)ER situation is one we've gotten used to and learned how to account for. The other things you mentioned don't need to change, IMO, for the same reason as the (S)ER/anti-(S)ER situation. The problem is that with Slowking, it's not so simple. Slowking users have long since learned how to counter the best counters to Slowking, which means that people who plan to counter Slowking also have to counter their counters to anti-Slowking. This means that countering Slowking by splashing in anti-Slowking tech doesn't work -- the Slowking players see it coming, and just bring out their counters. Hopefully, that's clearer than it seems.
 
My entire point is, that's not true. You can't really play around Slowking. You can counter it, yes, although it is difficult, but "playing around it" is a very different concept. And it's not just a "great card" -- it's an unbelievably, unreasonably, undeniably broken one. That is why I started this thread. If Slowking were just a "great card," I wouldn't have said anything.
 
Slowking is challenging, but I say it shouldn't be banned. I played an undefeated slowking deck in an unlimited tournament, and it was difficult, the match lasted 45 minutes. But I just used his own slowking against him, and ended up winning the match.
My point is, I understand how dkate's feels, but Slowking can be defeated. Although when Slowking and D. Gator are combined, They prove to be the hardest combination to beat.
 
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I'm a bit split on this issue... Playing in SoCali for so long, I've gotten used to things the way IPGeek put it, "It is all about metagame".

But then, we're talking about Slowking. This is something you always have to consider, ALWAYS, you KNOW you will see it. It's not a matter of if, but when. Sneasel is hurt dramatically by the fact that it requires special energy, and we have ER/SER, which is played so commonly that there's a chance you could go an entire tournament without seeing it.

But slowking is the other way around. Granted disruption is good, but the way it is now, it's one sided, unfair, frustrating, and altering every Unlimited deck you EVER make because of one obscenely broken card just isn't fair.

Sure, you can say "Bring out Pichu" or "Bring out a Muk, Slowking's done". Well, Even with the baby power, Pichu only has 30 HP, and Muk sports a shirt that says "GOW Bait". If slowking is out BEFORE those cards, you'll be working VERY hard to get them out, and they can be gone INSTANTLY.

I dunno. I'm bad at arguing. Slowking is FAR too powerful and dominant. I'm all for reprinting it with the correct translation.

[EDIT - Am Pm, used his own Slowking against him? How the fr4k did you do that? Slowking has almost no drawbacks.]
 
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Of course, I think the main thing you need to go to for proof that Slowking is too broken is 2002 Worlds, if I remember correctly, almost all(if not all) of the decks that made top8 were Slowking decks. That's not even bringing up the point that Crobat was still being played, but the 10- champion deck at Worlds was a Slowking/Donphan, if that's not proof enough, I don't know what is, Slowking made a deck with Donphan as the main attacker win Worlds.
 
If the japanese one is different, why isn't the american errated?
 
"Quote, originally posted by Maverick zero hunter, [EDIT - Am Pm, used his own Slowking against him? How the fr4k did you do that? Slowking has almost no drawbacks.]

Well you see every card has flaw's, Slowking happens to have high retreat cost. As soon as my opponent laid down his first slowking, having cleffa as my active, I just simply played gust of wind. He only would get one flip for one slowking. Either I could play gust of wind, or it would go back on top of my deck just for me to eeeek. I wouldn't let him get more than 1 slowking out at a time. By the time he managed to get 3 slowking's out he had used about all of his good trainer's, and I had my sneasel's loaded and my bench full. So I just knocked out one pokemon after another until I won.
 
I've heard all these arguments, especially after last year's Worlds and the over-use of Slowking/something. Banning Slowking from Unlimited would make it "Limited" or "Restricted." Do we want to add another format to OP? Personally, I'd love a "Restricted" format (banned and restricted cards), but creating such a format would require effort (i.e., watch lists, focus groups, committee hearings, etc.), unless of course we wanted to vest the power to ban cards to a select few. Please, no! Plus, I'm not sure many local TOs would implement or use Restricted tournaments. But, it could definately see use at high-level championships.

Listen, almost everyone knows that Slowking is broken. We're not arguing that dkates. Banning it from "Unlimited" is not the answer. Creating a "Restricted" format could work.
 
Prime said:
If the japanese one is different, why isn't the american errated?

I don't think they realized it was different right away and the players didn't seem to realize it's brokeness for about 6 months or so! So there was no need to errata it then.
There were so many good cards in Neo: Genesis and people were so used to Beatdown that no one paid any attention to it for quite a while!

By that point, it was too late to errata it.
 
SteveP said:
Listen, almost everyone knows that Slowking is broken. We're not arguing that dkates. Banning it from "Unlimited" is not the answer. Creating a "Restricted" format could work.
Please note that I am now only proposing that Slowking be banned if changing it is not an option, which I would wager it is. As far as the "Restricted" format, that too sounds like a good idea -- I'd even be willing to help create the list of banned cards, given the oppurtunity.
 
Unlimited.. mmm MUK, Pichu, Gyms loads of Anti Slowking Tech .. Banning is not needed..

And if you haven't seen a deck runnuing 4 Pichu then watch those Slowkings die ...

Certainly if we are driving the game forward I cannot understand the point in twittering about Unlimited anyhow it's a sometimes format here where we play Modified and Modified mostly after all we want to keep the game fresh and PUI/TPC want to sell cards .. job done.. leave slowking as is .. ready for Xmas when it will get a right PICHU STUFFING..
 
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So, basically, you're saying that to easily counter Slowking, you have to sacrifice your own ability to use Pokemon Powers? NOT a good thing, my friend. There are plenty of Pokemon Power strategies and combos that need some Trainer support, but are very viable. Damage Swap Stall (more commonly known as Damage Swap), for example. It's been weakened by Cleffa, but that's handled easily enough. But the strategy does depend on Trainers like Scoop Up, Mr. Fuji, Pokemon Center, etc. Therefore, if the opponent gets his Slowkings going, what are you supposed to do? Any Slowking deck built by anyone who knows how Slowking works will never have Slowking active if it can be helped. And believe me, it usually can. I've played against enough Slowking decks to know that. Can Slowking be countered? Of course. But are these counters necessarily compatible with every otherwise good deck? NO! Dark Vileplume renders Slowking useless, but it's a Stage 2. That means a deck focus. Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it's only one deck option, and requires a skilled deckbuilder who's lucky enough to have that many (preferably Holo) Dark Vileplume. Pichu can kill Slowking in a matter of 4 turns, barring healing by the Slowking user. But it means minimizing, or preferably avoiding your own use of Pokemon Powers, which kills many strategies. (OT, but I might add, I'm not that fond of Pichu...) Muk shuts down Slowking's Power, but it again means using no Pokemon Powers yourself, AND Muk is a Stage 1 that is harder to keep alive than Slowking is. So, as you can see, building to counter Slowking limits deck options by quite a bit. There are plenty of deck strategies that I have long wanted to try. But since many of these strategies are only for Unlimited, guess what? I have to assume that my opponent will use Slowking, since that assumption is often (though not always) right. And if I build to beat Slowking, it usually ruins the deck idea.
It's not only that, though. It's the fact that Slowking makes the game boring. You heard me -- BORING! Putting down a card and watching my opponent flip 3 or 4 coins, knowing that unless, by some miracle of chance, they all land tails, that card not only does nothing, but I get it again next turn is the ultimate in boredom.
As it is, I haven't played in any tournaments lately, partly because in an Unlimited tournament, it's reasonable to assume that at least half of the decks will have Slowking. In casual play, I accept Unlimited matches only under the condition of no Slowking.
So, is this what I'm left with? Casual play and Modified? Letting hundreds upon hundreds of cards sit in my binders just because they would have been good if it weren't for this one card? Well, the whole point of this thread is to make sure that I, and other players like myself, are not forced into that ugly scenario. I've been with this game too long to quit. But I want to be able to enjoy all aspects of it, not all aspects but one large one.
I would also ask everyone who has posted against doing anything about Slowking these questions. Have you used a Slowking deck? If so, did most of your opponents have about as much chance of winning as you did, or is the match practically decided before it starts? Did most of your opponents have fun playing against your deck? I would wager that most or all of your answers are yes, no, no.
 
"If so, did most of your opponents have about as much chance of winning as you did, or is the match practically decided before it starts? "

Now that's the thing about Competitive Unlimited - the crucial coin flip is the one that determines who goes first. So it really came down to who won that flip.

"Did most of your opponents have fun playing against your deck?"

Um in Competitive Unlimited, the goal is to win. Not let your opponent have a good time. If i'm going to a Competitive Unlimited tourney, i'm going to win. If my opponent does not have a good time, sorry but that's the game. If i want to have fun in Unlimited, i'll be playing Casual Unlimited. I've had many good times doing Casual Unlimited.

I dunno you seem to think that in Competitive Unlimited play that all cards should be playable. Sorry but they aren't. Never will be. You don't like Muk because then you can't use Pokémon Powers. Besides Mind Games, off the top of my head, Raindance and Gaze come to mind with Damage Swap and Energy Trans a distant second (very distant). But Raindance few and far and the others are only a surprise deck. Competitive Unlimited i think of Chansey (well not anymore with the new Metal), Sneasel, Scyther, Clefable, Wigglytuff, and maybe Hitmonchan and Electabuzz as attackers. Oh yeah and Tyrogue. Other Pokémon like Cleffa, Pichu, and Muk are supporting Pokémon. Even Blastoise as a supporter. The tried and true Pokémon have been tested again and again in Competitive Unlimited. Will be interesting to see if something like Rare Candy makes any impact.

In Competitive Unlimited people are going to play the power house cards. They want to win. They have fun by winning. You want to have fun in Competitive Unlimited by playing a rogue deck? Feel free. If you're idea of fun is winning, then you'd better have a good deck.
 
Granted, you play competitive Unlimited to win, but where's the fun in winning when you have an unfair advantage, to the point that you almost can't lose except in the very unlikely event of a bad draw? Thing is, in Modified, a rogue deck can be a good deck, and vice versa. In Unlimited, though, the situation is such that that is all but impossible. True, Slowking is not the only card that has made that the case, but it's been a prime factor. Even in Unlimited, shouldn't it be possible to win consistently with a rogue deck?
Should all cards be playable in Unlimited? No. Some cards were never playable, and the field shouldn't be leveled that much. But, IMO, there are not enough playable cards in Unlimited, despite the size of the overall card pool. Many cards WERE playable until a certain few power cards, a large portion of which you listed, came on to the scene and shoved them off the playables list. Now, one thing I have always held true is that for every strategy, there is at least one counter-strategy of nearly equivalent effectiveness. If there isn't, the game's broken, possibly beyond repair. Unlimited isn't there yet, but it's dangerously close. I am just trying to do my part to keep it from going over the edge.
On a side note, even without the help of Metal Energy, Chansey is still quite playable. I've tried it. Just make sure you have Gold Berries, Unown N, and a way to make sure Unown N doesn't get sniped out of the game too fast.
 
"Banning is not needed..", exactly, banning isn't needed, but if it's not gonna be changed to what it should have always been, then banning may unfortunately be the only option to balance out the game.

"And if you haven't seen a deck runnuing 4 Pichu then watch those Slowkings die ...", yes, Pichu can take out the Slowkings, but it takes four turns, and that's if they don't use any Gold Berries or any other type of healing. How long do you think the opponent's gonna keep gettin' tails for Baby Rule?

"By that point, it was too late to errata it.", evidently they didn't think it was too late to erratta all the Pokemon including Base Set(Multipule years after it came out) with Pokemon Powers that said they stop working when the Pokemon's Asleep, Confused or Paralyzed, to say the Power stops working if the Pokemon is affected by a Special Condition(So Poison, and later on Burn along with any new ones they may come out with would shut off the Powers) because that's the way it was always suppossed to be.
 
I have to Ditto BJJ.

Casual Unlimited can be fun.

BUT COMPETITIVE Unlimited is not for the weak of heart.
You better expect slowking and Sneasal.

THEY way of the beast.

I think someone suggested YOUR AREA must have MORE modified tourneys. Can you be a TO? Can you talk to your TO? HOW are all other players in your area? Satisfied with the tourney scene?

I used to alternate formats BUT modified became so much more important we greatly reduced the # of unlimited formats. *Esp since Premier events were modified*

AND like BJJ said IN UNLIMITED it is all about going for the jugular, so I HAVE no idea what OTHER Pokemon I would want to play that MAY have a pokemon power.

Slowking. Maybe DVile *but iggly killed this deck* If I don't play slowking I play ALL FREE RETREATERS and low energy costs pokemon.

If not there is always clefable and plenty of ER & SER's.
 
Now, dkates, at one point, back in the day, I agreed with you: Slowking was TOO good, and Wizards' worst case of a reprint.

However, my naive view about unlimited is vanquished, after a few solid years of field experience, I can say that unlimited is like a ghetto: it can't be fixed, and the worst kinds of scum will be rampant 'til the end of time. I've been having a little fun with e-on decks in unlimited, and have seen myself FRYING Slowking/Sneasel with funny, yet potent cards like Garde ex. Then again, it's more likely than not my local metagame, so....yah, whatever :rolleyes:
 
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