ReshiBoar vs. ReshiPhlosion

[K2theAblaM]

Attack? Typhlosion can do better. -1 energy for ten less damage, to get a powerful effect.

Retreat? Typhlosion does this twice as effectively. Agreed.

Switch? TyRam doesnt even NEED to play switch because of low retreat costs all around. You don't play switch in Tyram? You're doing it wrong.

Tyram is more consistent. Please explain how it's more consistent then Emboar. I'm really curious to see how it's easier to set up 2 stages 2's than just a single emboar.

It takes better advantage or Outrage. Lol, the only thing that single damage counter can do is guarantee that another reshiram or zekrom won't need a plusPower to knock you out. Other than that, I'll pass on the extra 10 damage when 9/10 I'm using Blue Flare anyways.

Ty is a better attacker than boar. Need I say more? I used to think Boar was better, but that was before I tested with TyRam. Now my opinion has changed. Up for debate, but even with the "better" attack, you have no access to Emboar 19 with a 150 attack. I would argue that getting dual emboars up will trump getting 2 typhlosion any day.

You didn't even bother to read my post before you responded. Anyone can tell you that 2 retreat is better than 4, that's not the point. The point is Emboar's positives far outweight his negatives by a far margin.

Forget attacking with Typhlosion/Emboar. If you ever get to the point where you need to attack with any of these guys in a RESHIRAM deck, then you're playing the deck wrong, point blank period. Never mind that when you attach energy to Typhlosion to retreat, you can't power up another Reshiram to attack that very turn. Never mind that you have to build up at least 2 Typhlosion to maximize his potential. By the time it takes you to build up 2 Typhlosion, I can have an Emboar 20 AND an Emboar 19 with a 150 attack ready to roll. Typhlosion has no counter to Donphan prime, RDL, Magnezone, and any pokemon with more than 120-130 hp. You guys tell me how discarding a single energy is helpful when any pokemon worth while hits with little to no energy to begin with.

---------- Post added 08/01/2011 at 04:05 PM ----------

I don't even know why this is still being discussed. Nationals answered this question already. Reshphlosian was much less played and still did much better. The theorymon shows the differences are small, but in practice those small differences in consistency, space, and dependency on a supporting Pokemon make the difference between 6-3 decks and 7-2 decks.

You have these numbers and figures available? Because I've never even seen the Emboar vs Typhlosion count for nationals.

 

[untitled]

^The list that went 9-0 at nats didn't use Switch. Was he not doing it right either? XP

It is NOT more consistent to set up multiple stage 2's. However, afterward they make energy in the deck basically non-existent. You'll never drought on energy once the two are in play. Emboar can't guarantee you draw the retrieval/fisherman/etc and all of those are cards Ty doesn't need to run. Those spots can go to consistency, hence making it more consistent. Ty also better abuses Ninetales.

I agree that the self damage is by no means a reason to run Ty. However, if you have 4 damage on it you can reversal a basic and then Afterburner a bench avoiding the discard.

Emboar 150 is hard to setup when Emboar is constantly pressured to stay alive and needs a huge amount of energy.

Typhlosions positives outweigh Emboar's and Emboar's negatives outweigh Typhlosions. Nuff said.

 

[K2theAblaM]

^The list that went 9-0 at nats didn't use Switch. Was he not doing it right either? XP

It is NOT more consistent to set up multiple stage 2's. However, afterward they make energy in the deck basically non-existent. You'll never drought on energy once the two are in play. Emboar can't guarantee you draw the retrieval/fisherman/etc and all of those are cards Ty doesn't need to run. Those spots can go to consistency, hence making it more consistent. Ty also better abuses Ninetales.

I agree that the self damage is by no means a reason to run Ty. However, if you have 4 damage on it you can reversal a basic and then Afterburner a bench avoiding the discard.

Emboar 150 is hard to setup when Emboar is constantly pressured to stay alive and needs a huge amount of energy.

Typhlosions positives outweigh Emboar's and Emboar's negatives outweigh Typhlosions. Nuff said.

I'm just going to stop right here. I think you and I can both agree that theres been enough theory and speculation on the subject. I dont think we're going to change each other's minds but I can say that after building and testing both decks extensively.... I feel more confident with the emboar build, but again that's just me.

All I can say is I'm enjoying the hype typhlosion is getting. More hype means more chance of me having a better matchup come world's in 2 weeks.

Peace.

 

[espeon200]

I'm just going to stop right here. I think you and I can both agree that theres been enough theory and speculation on the subject. I dont think we're going to change each other's minds but I can say that after building and testing both decks extensively.... I feel more confident with the emboar build, but again that's just me.

All I can say is I'm enjoying the hype typhlosion is getting. More hype means more chance of me having a better matchup come world's in 2 weeks.

Peace.

And that's all it really comes down to. I argued that Reshiboar was better for a long time before I tried out Reshiphlosion. Now having played both, I don't want to go back to Reshiboar. On paper I still think Reshiboar is the better deck, but for my personal playstyle and certain intangibles, I play Reshiphlosion much better.

To the people that still want to debate which is better: Play both decks. Playtest them against a wide range of decks, and then decide for yourself which is better. They're both good decks, so it really does all come down to personal preference.

 

[Jahikoi]

I think, baseline, that Emboar is better. However, due to the existence of trainer lock and muk (among other things) that he is too risky to play.


Typhlosion also has the benefit of having a useable attack, which can discard rescue energy while still KOing stuff.

 

[Meesie6x6]

Tyram is much more consistent because you don't need Fisherman/Burned Tower/Energy retrieval. it also doesn't need switch. you also don't need to have energies in your hand because you can get them from your discard pile.

thinking you should never attack with typhlo is wrong. flare destroy is one of the best plays you can make vs a Zoroark is they have another one/can get one out.

Tyram is also way more resistent to disruption. Once you have your field you need nothing to keep it up.

 

[lucario aura wielder]

boar for speed pholsion for constinctency your choice

 

[Meesie6x6]

Boar isn't faster lol. both decks need the same amount of cards with the same count (possible count) for a turn 2 bleu flare, except typhlo needs an energy in the discard pile and bor in the hand.

 

[nnaann]

The fact that Reshiram/Typhlosion is a Tier 1 deck, and that Reshiram/Emboar isn't considered much of a threat at the LCQ/Worlds shows that Typhlosion is by far the superior choice.

 

[untitled]

^Also there more Reshiram/Emboar players at nationals than Typhlosion/Reshiram players yet TyRam still placed better overall. That might have been said already though; if so, sorry.

 

[amphy#1]

All I have to say is check out my deck thread. It's in my sig.

 

[Happiny13]

Boar is so good on paper. It has soo many things it can tech effectively. RDL being the main one. RDL has a ton of uses against decks. If Magnemega doesn't have the resources to lost zone 3 energies to kill RDL then it can just sweep the game from there on. However, Reshiboar has been pretty inconsistent for me. During early game my hand was clogged with retrievals. Once Emboar was set up I never seemed to have access to 3 energies. Reshiphlosion is probably better due to getting to run more consistency cards.

 

[jjkkl]

I know that the numbers point to Typhlosion being superior, but the only dedicated Reshiram player in my area plays Emboar, and his deck is monstrously difficult to outspeed or lock down. Trainer lock or Party lock be damned; that thing sets up regardless, and he has no qualms Flare Blitzing for 150 to wipe out anything that comes his way. There's little to reasonably state my claim, rather than that I'm putting my opinion in favour of Emboar due to personal empiricism.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[amphy#1]

I know that the numbers point to Typhlosion being superior, but the only dedicated Reshiram player in my area plays Emboar, and his deck is monstrously difficult to outspeed or lock down. Trainer lock or Party lock be damned; that thing sets up regardless, and he has no qualms Flare Blitzing for 150 to wipe out anything that comes his way. There's little to reasonably state my claim, rather than that I'm putting my opinion in favour of Emboar due to personal empiricism.
Posted with Mobile style...

I'm very much like that player you described. :smile:

 

[chrataxe]

I'm just going to stop right here. I think you and I can both agree that theres been enough theory and speculation on the subject. I dont think we're going to change each other's minds but I can say that after building and testing both decks extensively.... I feel more confident with the emboar build, but again that's just me.

All I can say is I'm enjoying the hype typhlosion is getting. More hype means more chance of me having a better matchup come world's in 2 weeks.

Peace.

I can beat any deck with any deck...no kidding. That just means I've spent too many spots countering that one deck, hurt my consistency, and hurting my matchups against many other decks.

As far the "mirror," let's not forget that one of the things that makes Reshiboar good is Retrieval. Retrieval is severely limited when Typhlosion starts discarding your energies, meaning you will be ditch 3 every turn.

 

[flea212]

Reshiphlosion doesn´t rely on Retrieval, which is great against Vileplume. Emboar in the active spot = a prize for your opponent and it won´t take long to get it there with Reversal and Catcher. So much to consistency. Reshiboar might be faster in the early game, because you can attach all Energy you need in one turn. Typhlosion´s way to accelerate the attachment of Energy is a very viable one, but might be complicated against Zekrom. Emboar´s way is good, too, but falls short against Vileplume and is based on your hand (but there won´t be much cases of not getting Retrieval or Energy cards when you need them).

All in all is Reshiphlosion is the better Reshiram option. Both variances are good and successful, but when Catcher comes, Emboar won´t stay long on your field and you won´t be able to do much until he´s gone.

what's the difference? what's so great about typhlosion when it is pulled to your active by a reversal or catcher? Doesn't emboar have 150hp? That's more than Typhlosion. Doesn't Emboar do 80 damage? That's more then typhlosion. So you're telling me that typhlosion survives reversal kill better then Emboar?

Process that for a minute okay?

 

[amphy#1]

what's the difference? what's so great about typhlosion when it is pulled to your active by a reversal or catcher? Doesn't emboar have 150hp? That's more than Typhlosion. Doesn't Emboar do 80 damage? That's more then typhlosion. So you're telling me that typhlosion survives reversal kill better then Emboar?

Process that for a minute okay?

Sometimes I don't know what people are thinking when they say that Typhlosion is better. When I know what's better from my own experiences. I've played both decks, and many different versions of them. I have to say that Emboar is better. Most of your reasons are just some of the reasons why Emboar is better.

Most of you know the reasons it's better too. you just don't care to admit it. Just because Typhlosion went 9-0 and made top 32, yall make it seem like it's the BDIF, when it's not. The last match that guy had before top 32 was against a Reshiboar deck. It took him to the limit, and it could have won, ruining his 9-0 record. Also, both decks did very well against Yamega decks that weekend. Honestly, I think it was bad luck that kept Reshiboar out of the top cut.

And if bad luck is the reason why you guys put TyRam over Resiboar, that's a big mistake yall will pay for when we see how well they do at worlds.

 

[espeon200]

what's the difference? what's so great about typhlosion when it is pulled to your active by a reversal or catcher? Doesn't emboar have 150hp? That's more than Typhlosion. Doesn't Emboar do 80 damage? That's more then typhlosion. So you're telling me that typhlosion survives reversal kill better then Emboar?

Process that for a minute okay?

Wow... um... wow.... Alright, Emboar has 150 HP, yes that's right. Typhlosion has 140 HP. It's only 10 HP difference. Before you shout PlusPower at the top of your lungs, it takes two PlusPower to knock out Typhlosion with Blue Flare and Three PlusPowers to knock out Emboar. It's a minor difference. Your statement seems to act like Emboar has three times the HP of Typhlosion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In regards to your second point, Typhlosion discards energy. I have won games thanks to the fact that my Typhlosion could discard my opponent's Rescue/DCE/Rainbow energy. I'm not theorymonning here. I know from actual games that the discard is a bigger deal than you would expect it to be, and well worth the -10 damage (and the one less energy cost). I would also point out that it's useful when sending up against a Zoroark because if your opponent copies Flare Destroy with Foul Play he or she has to discard an energy attached to Zoroark. That includes a lone DCE if that's what's being used to power Foul Play.

Third point not directly alluded to in your response but an important part of the discussion in my opinion: retreat cost. Emboar =4 Typhlosion =2. Like golf scores, retreat costs are better the lower they are. That means if your opponent doesn't one-shot your Typhlosion you don't have to waste as many resources to get it back to the bench. With Emboar you have to have four energy in hand, attach them, retreat, then play Fisherman or two Energy Retrieval to get those energy back into hand.

So to answer your main question, that's the difference.

Sometimes I don't know what people are thinking when they say that Typhlosion is better. When I know what's better from my own experiences. I've played both decks, and many different versions of them. I have to say that Emboar is better. Most of your reasons are just some of the reasons why Emboar is better.

Highlighted the main point here. Yes, in your experience Emboar is better. In my experience Typhlosion is better. We are different people who play the card game in different ways. I don't think there has been anyone in this thread outright saying that Emboar is bad. Usually it's them saying that in their experience they have a better time playing Typhlosion. Which is why I find it funny that so many Emboar players seem to feel like if Typhlosion players don't agree with them about the superior deck then they must defend their deck and make Typhlosion players come to their senses.

Most of you know the reasons it's better too. you just don't care to admit it. Just because Typhlosion went 9-0 and made top 32, yall make it seem like it's the BDIF, when it's not. The last match that guy had before top 32 was against a Reshiboar deck. It took him to the limit, and it could have won, ruining his 9-0 record. Also, both decks did very well against Yamega decks that weekend. Honestly, I think it was bad luck that kept Reshiboar out of the top cut.

And if bad luck is the reason why you guys put TyRam over Resiboar, that's a big mistake yall will pay for when we see how well they do at worlds.

We will see which deck does better at Worlds, and I will call it now, whichever deck does not do as good at Worlds will still have supporters who say that the reason it didn't do as well was luck. That goes for whichever deck fares worse.

 

[amphy#1]

Wow... um... wow.... Alright, Emboar has 150 HP, yes that's right. Typhlosion has 140 HP. It's only 10 HP difference. Before you shout PlusPower at the top of your lungs, it takes two PlusPower to knock out Typhlosion with Blue Flare and Three PlusPowers to knock out Emboar. It's a minor difference. Your statement seems to act like Emboar has three times the HP of Typhlosion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In regards to your second point, Typhlosion discards energy. I have won games thanks to the fact that my Typhlosion could discard my opponent's Rescue/DCE/Rainbow energy. I'm not theorymonning here. I know from actual games that the discard is a bigger deal than you would expect it to be, and well worth the -10 damage (and the one less energy cost). I would also point out that it's useful when sending up against a Zoroark because if your opponent copies Flare Destroy with Foul Play he or she has to discard an energy attached to Zoroark. That includes a lone DCE if that's what's being used to power Foul Play.

Discarding their energy is good. Just make sure you're not going to get KOed next turn. Also it is 10 less than Emboar, and any player STUPID enough to have a Zoroark copy Flare Destroy (which they won't) deserves to not only get their energy discarded, but they deserve to lose as well. They wouldn't even copy Emboar's attack. It won't kill em, and it doesn't do enough damage.

Third point not directly alluded to in your response but an important part of the discussion in my opinion: retreat cost. Emboar =4 Typhlosion =2. Like golf scores, retreat costs are better the lower they are. That means if your opponent doesn't one-shot your Typhlosion you don't have to waste as many resources to get it back to the bench. With Emboar you have to have four energy in hand, attach them, retreat, then play Fisherman or two Energy Retrieval to get those energy back into hand.

Dodrio makes it 2 less for Emboar. We can easily get back 2 energies with Energy Retrival. That's not a problem at all for us.

So to answer your main question, that's the difference.

Not very good differences in my book.

Highlighted the main point here. Yes, in your experience Emboar is better. In my experience Typhlosion is better. We are different people who play the card game in different ways. I don't think there has been anyone in this thread outright saying that Emboar is bad. Usually it's them saying that in their experience they have a better time playing Typhlosion. Which is why I find it funny that so many Emboar players seem to feel like if Typhlosion players don't agree with them about the superior deck then they must defend their deck and make Typhlosion players come to their senses.

It's the fact that players act like it's on a higher tier than Emboar, when it's not/shouldn't be. That's why we feel we should defend it. I play Emboar differently than you do, so you're going to say that TyRam is better. I consider both decks to be equal in the tier race due to what each of them brings to the table. 1 brings speed+consistency(my deck is consistant), and 1 brings consistency. Both are good qualities to have in this format today.

We will see which deck does better at Worlds, and I will call it now, whichever deck does not do as good at Worlds will still have supporters who say that the reason it didn't do as well was luck. That goes for whichever deck fares worse.

Yes, we will see. There's also the fact that most players will be playing TyRam, because yall hyped it up so much, and threw Emboar out to the trash can. It might be just like Nats, where a Reshiboar deck does really well and tops worlds, but doesn't win, because it wasn't played that much, and you thought it was crap, just like yall did TyRam at Nats.

Coments in bold.

 

[SMP88]

Dodrio makes it 2 less for Emboar. We can easily get back 2 energies with Energy Retrival. That's not a problem at all for us.

And if I play Dodrio in Reshiphlosion Typhlosion now has free retreat. Playing Dodrio just for Emboar lowers your consistency quite a bit, since Reshiboar already has problems fitting everything in it and still being consistent. Also, having to get back those energies back uses up resources that could be used to power up Reshiram.If Typhlosion retreats he just needs to Afterburner those energies back.