Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG

[ajwalker]

The question is why TCPi is abandoning this concept of the game? This is what is hurting the skill of the Pokemon TCG besides other factors. Why are they abandoning the clever uses of Stage 2's and setup decks?

Good question. :biggrin:

Maybe players in Japan want to crush their opponents quickly and get back on the Japanese version of Facebook? Maybe it's because players in Japan complained about games taking too long so they are favoring big, fast basics and the upcoming big Ex's.

I don't know, anecdotal evidence suggest, with all the constant stimuli around us, it's becoming harder to concentrate for long periods of time. This may be their way of addressing it. To keep the game alive they've decided to shorten the time it takes to play so it's faster paced?

But the real problem is we don't know because they don't engage in meaningful conversations with the players in the rest of the world that love the game.

We may never know why decision X was made except perhaps by supposition, rumor or our best theory. Worlds would have been a great time to have a "general player meeting" or some kind of statement from the higher ups. Like a "State of the Game" address/statement: this is where we are, this is where we are heading sort of thing. You know, rally the troops, give some sneak peaks, "leak" some info.

A lot of Comic Cons just wrapped and they all had forums where you could hear from the horses mouth and engage in dialogue with creators/decision makers. How awesome would that be for Pokemon players in the rest of the world?

There are all kinds of forum models to point to in other industries: video games do this a lot. Blizzard (makers of World of Warcraft) have their own convention! Maybe you could argue Pokemon isn't that big, but everyone who is able is at Worlds. Why couldn't Worlds be, in addition to naming a champion, our once a year convention since we all be there anyway (or a lot of us anyway)? It wouldn't cost anything since the head honchos are already there! :thumb:

HGSS-On is too similiar to last format with SP Pokemon, Big Basics like Reshiram and Zekrom are the new SP's of the format. Catcher has made every deck a continuous Luxray GL Lv. X in terms of Bright Look, Stage 1's are getting more love in this format than Stage 2's. Unless you're running BlameTruth with KGL, MewLock with Vileplume, or Gothitelle/Reuniclus any Stage 2 deck with 2 Stage 2's you run you're going to be laughed at.

Yeah, except for the decks mentioned, you are right. Even running Beartic (130 HP) which is a natural counter to Reshiram and has no weakness to Zekrom is Catchered, Plus Powered and OHKO as soon as their turn 2 by Reshi if my opponent gets a good set up with a Tepig on the bench, a Rare Candy and Abiliboar.

And lets not even talk about running Samurott if your opponent is running Zekrom. :nonono: Catcher, Plus Power, Outrage and Oshowott is history. And that's not even touching the ZPST energy engine.

NV will help since Kyurem will be in format, but he's still Catcher-Plus Power bait for either of them. And his second attack doesn't do nearly the damage that Reshi and Zek does. On top of that, in the EX set, they both are being given ANOTHER 50 HP and a whopping 150 attack.

So, for the set we have and even for the forseeable future, we're going to have to :lol: play the cards we are dealt :lol: and maybe look at other areas of the game that maybe we can make an impression on the powers that be to be improved.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

How is this format like last format? Even though this format focuses on basics, last format focused on quick cheap attackers with massive easy support with SPs, and cheap attacking Stage 2s with BTS, this format has Stage 2s and some Stage 1s taking the role of support with basics and some Stage 1s taking the role of main attacker, partly because BTS is gone, but these new Basics have high Attack costs, and the Stage 1s have low attack costs. This format maybe focusing on Stage 2 support with easier to get basics, but really that's because we no longer have BTS, Bebe's, and the mass draw card Uxie, and the nerf to Rare Candy. Would Reshi still be popular, probably. And is it wrong for basics to be taking the role of primary attacker? I don't think so. It may be different formats, but that's not a bad thing.

 

[ajwalker]

Agreed. Let's hope TPCi is reading!


But, for the fourth time: Complaining about the first turn rule and especially certain cards is a waste of time. Not only is it a waste of time, but it's actually counterproductive because it makes it more difficult to filter through this thread and unveil the consensus that players would like Best of 5 as well as productive ideas on how to implement it.

Keep your irrelevant, nonsense arguments to yourself and focus on our one way to restore skill to the game: playing more games at tournaments.

I don't know Ness, I whole heartedly agree with you about playing more games at tournaments. It's a fantastic idea that should be implemented right away. But I don't think it's the only way to restore skill to the game.

I also agree with you in the sense that there is nothing we can do about cards, what's released or when. Nor how said cards play in conjunction or opposition to other cards in a given set.

But, maybe, just maybe, this debate about cards in general, on the off chance that someone in authority stumbles across it, will be help them be more circumspect in the design and release of future cards, be they Pokemon, Trainers or Supporters, then we haven't wasted our time in this discussion.

It is, after all, only a discussion. And oft times, great things happen and new ideas emerge when passionate and smart people get together and butt heads over something they care about.

 

[vaporeon]

You tell me. I reported what I knew first hand. I didn't participate in the World Championships and then I actually explained cart interactions to back-up my points. Yes, sometimes I had vague memories, but I backed them up with the actual cards.

You... deny Haymaker based on the fact that one of the few decks that rivaled it might have taken first place in the first World Championships. A deck that functioned by backing up big Basic Pokemon with the first, and for the longest time only mass Energy acceleration.

I notice Crinus and Vaporeon don't seem to understand S/ER in a format. The first eight or so turns of the game, you usually only got two Energy on a card because your opponent was waiting until SER was worth using and/or they had burned through their Energy Removals. Against a Haymaker deck, you were usually down multiple Prizes at this point. Unless you were also using Haymaker, in which case it was who outdid each other first.

You remember I never had a chance to finish my earlier post? While not easy, snagging 3 Plus Power was reasonably likely for a Haymaker deck. If you opened with a lone 50 HP Basic Pokemon, most Haymaker decks would go for the donk. It wasn't a guarantee, but with four Plus Power in the deck and the strong likelihood of being able to draw into and/or search for all of them, a non-Fighting Resistant Pokemon with 50 HP (which would be most of them) was more than likely donked.

I fully understand the energy removal part of the format.

 

[Crinus]

You tell me. I reported what I knew first hand. I didn't participate in the World Championships and then I actually explained cart interactions to back-up my points. Yes, sometimes I had vague memories, but I backed them up with the actual cards.

You... deny Haymaker based on the fact that one of the few decks that rivaled it might have taken first place in the first World Championships. A deck that functioned by backing up big Basic Pokemon with the first, and for the longest time only mass Energy acceleration.

I notice Crinus and Vaporeon don't seem to understand S/ER in a format. The first eight or so turns of the game, you usually only got two Energy on a card because your opponent was waiting until SER was worth using and/or they had burned through their Energy Removals. Against a Haymaker deck, you were usually down multiple Prizes at this point. Unless you were also using Haymaker, in which case it was who outdid each other first.

You remember I never had a chance to finish my earlier post? While not easy, snagging 3 Plus Power was reasonably likely for a Haymaker deck. If you opened with a lone 50 HP Basic Pokemon, most Haymaker decks would go for the donk. It wasn't a guarantee, but with four Plus Power in the deck and the strong likelihood of being able to draw into and/or search for all of them, a non-Fighting Resistant Pokemon with 50 HP (which would be most of them) was more than likely donked.

My memory is bad when it comes to remembering anything precise from that time period.

I just know haymaker never won major tournaments until Sneasel came along.

But the whole Neo sets released really turned the game upside down for the worse, its probably reaching its lowest point in history as people moved away from the game, went yugioh, or just moved away from it completely for a while.

 

[vaporeon]

Vaporeon: Did you just say that if you take out 3/4ths of the format, then you get the Haymaker/Base days? Huh. That must be what the other 3/4ths of the format is there to protect against ^_^

Also, as a general comment about the Base Set days...

That format was essentially "draw deck, win". There is no deck currently that can legitimately draw itself out completely on turn one consistently. 4 Oak, 4 Bill, 4 Comp, 4 Item Finder. A FAR stronger draw engine than anything we've got today.

yes I said that. I said that because that deck can't control the whole format, even with catcher. Sure both decks can win but when something sets up on it, those chances of the deck winning drop. Reshiphlosion on the other hand with catcher DOES control this format. The deck also had no real bad matchups and don't even say just trainer lock it. Though that can work, it still does not make it an autowin against the deck.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

My memory is bad when it comes to remembering anything precise from that time period.

I just know haymaker never won major tournaments until Sneasel came along.

But the whole Neo sets released really turned the game upside down for the worse, its probably reaching its lowest point in history as people moved away from the game, went yugioh, or just moved away from it completely for a while.

What are you talking about? First of all what's your source for what won the 'major tournaments.' Second of all GS's rule change was not the reason for people leaving the game, if it were the Video games wouldn't have lost any players. People stopped playing because it was no longer the cool thing to do.

 

[Crinus]

Websites covered Pokemon TCG like they do yugioh today.

some sites still cover the Pokemon TCG tournaments.

I remember these tournaments mostly the world championships on a yearly basis was always won by someone running something similar to a pure theme, like the Blastoise deck that won either 2001 or 2002 worlds, I think that was the first Pokemon Worlds their was, I been to many Pokemon tournaments locally during that span from 99 into the 2000s and their was these haymaker decks (not officially called haymaker though) in the tournaments and game, but always fail short. If someone has the results of Pokemon Worlds tournament from 2003-2008 it be of great interest to see what decks won. I seem to recall Sneasel winning 2003 but I could be wrong about that to, to think of it Sneasel was out in 2002 and that is what DIDNT win Worlds.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I asked for your sources, as in links to said sources. Also judging a deck by how it does in your area alone is an unfair observation. For instance where I live the meta sometimes doesn't see some of the big decks that are big in other states, like Machamp last year.

 

[Crinus]

sources of what I remember reading about years ago, dont ask me where because that was a long long time ago.

it was most likely on pokemonelite2000.com or some TCG site, who knows if something that old would even be archived if the site is still there.

 

[baby mario]

Reshiphlosion on the other hand with catcher DOES control this format

No it doesn't. Not even close.

Reshiphlosion is nowhere near as dominant as Luxchomp or GG were in previous formats. There is a greater variety of winning/top cutting decks than we have seen for some time. Reshiphlosion won less than a third of all BRs so how you can say it 'controls the format' is beyond me.

It's a tier 1 deck and it's a very popular deck (partly because it is cheap to build and easy to play), but don't go around saying it's something it's not just to try and bolster your failed arguments.

 

[vaporeon]

I never compared it to Luxchomp or GG. Reshi, just like Lux and GG holds high numbers. It's foolish to say it's nowhere close to them.

 

[baby mario]

I was using examples of decks that DID control a format to show how weak your assertion is.

Reshiphlosion won less than 30% of BRs. It is beyond foolish to say it controls the format.

You don't even have a point any more.

 

[Ness]

While I feel like more games at big events might not be obtainable in the near future, we need more time to finish rounds at the very least. Look at how the two biggest events of this past year, US Nationals and Worlds, ended - the third "game" never had a chance to finish. When you are trying to determine who a National or World Champion is, why should a sudden death game be the deciding factor? After these competitors have played for days and fought through numerous opponents, do you want the entire tournament to come down to nothing more than a coin flip? With so much on the line, the very least that can be done is to have a 90 minute series to ensure the games finish. Not only is this change possible, it is necessary.

This echoes what I wrote and I couldn't agree more that it's necessary - and for the same reasons Kyle pointed out: you don't want Nats & Worlds to be decided by a coin flip because we run out of time. Although Kyle says he isn't sure Best of 5 is possible in the near future, I don't see why it isn't. Nationals became a 3-day event and there was plenty of time to spare. Given the size and interest in the event, I only think it's fair to reward all the hard-working players (who are customers) with a tournament that gives them a chance to show their skills. Players need to be more demanding!

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I've kind of been avoiding this, but I don't really support Best of 5. While Best of 3 has shown to be pretty good from what I've seen, 5 seems a little...long. I get what your saying, but how do you even measure its success to begin with. And what's so wrong with luck playing a role in the game. While I will agree that the first turn is incredibly abusive, it doesn't really strike me as anymore abusive than T2 last year, where LuxChomp could set-up and even donk, while the T1 player would be unable to set-up. And while more games can help prevent it, but Best of 5 seems like it would just exhaust people more than really necessary. Maybe it's because I haven't been to Naationals in a few years, and that I was to distracted to pay attention to Worlds this year, but the current system doesn't seem as broken as some make it out to be, but that is just what I've observed so I could be wrong.

 

[Ness]

I've kind of been avoiding this, but I don't really support Best of 5. While Best of 3 has shown to be pretty good from what I've seen, 5 seems a little...long. Maybe it's because I haven't been to Naationals in a few years, and that I was to distracted to pay attention to Worlds this year, but the current system doesn't seem as broken as some make it out to be, but that is just what I've observed so I could be wrong.

I think if you were at Nats & Worlds this year you would feel different. The finals of Nationals & Worlds weren't even Pokémon. If you were at Worlds this year, you would have got to watch a huge jumbo screen projecting the finals of all age divisions. In the Masters, hundreds of spectators - fans, friends, players, media - all watched for the epic culmination of the season. This would be it. The match was tied. It was time for Game 3. Who would be the master strategist? Who would outplay the other? It was time to find out who was the best. David & Ross shuffled their decks to prepare for the biggest game of the year. Players fidgeted in their seats with anticipation.

Oh, and then 60 minutes was up so they flipped a coin and Ross lost.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

That seems to be more of a time constraint problem than a problem with the best of 3 matches. I'll admit that time extensions would be nice, especially this format. Also what was the coin flip for? Pokemon Reversal.

 

[ogremarauder]

I think he was refering to the who goes first flip. ppl are of a fairly large consensus that go first=first prize= winning game 3 after time was already called due to sudden death rule.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

That wouldn't make sense unless they were still on the first game. In match 2 and 3 the loser gets to choose who goes first, not by a coin flip.

 

[ogremarauder]

when playing a sudden death game 3, you randomly decide who goes first.
I Believe it ony works ur way if time is not called b4 game 3. Maybe they were only on game 1 though. I'll reread his report to find out exactly.